Billy Graham - Preacher or Chancer?

[Spud]

Ricky lost his head. Cortez influenced.
The connection between the two wasn't there in the corner.
Ricky hasn't thrown combinations for two years.
Ricky is a ten stone fighter.

They all seem like plain facts above.

Now the subjective, naive, novice, uninformed opinion stuff.

Pushing weights to build strength and power in a combination, volume puncher is the wrong path.
Timing, footwork, head-movement, stamina and speed are Ricky's strengths. Not as everyone now believes, his strength.

I don't care if he can lift the Phoenix Gym and Kerry Kayes' fridge - Can he throw combinations, move his head out the way of a jab, use range and land more than one shot before tying up?

Thats what matters.

Ricky has been reckless, one dimensional and ineffective for much of his post Tszyu career. You cant escape it.

But, Mayweather makes lots of fighters look pretty ordinary. That's the get out of jail card, to add to the Joe Cortez one. WHich I believe effected Ricky's chances by 50%.

And spoilt the fight as a spectacle.

Payne, your post was well put together until you started on Cortez...how T.F can you or anyone that is not a Hatton ball hugger justify the way Hatton has been allowed to clinch in fights to make a case that Cortz should not have been on top of Hatton from the start of the fight the way he was.

Take a look at the Urango fight after Hatton gets winded and the Collazo fight as soon as it began to not go his way.....Hattons fouling tacktics could have made the PBF fight into an ugley 12 round maul that would have seen Hatton having one of the most lop sided points defeats of all times after all his points deductions....because of Cortez we got to see a clean knock out ending.

Everyone except tyhe hatton d!ck riderz were fed up of his spoiling tacktics and he was being branded the new John Ruiz.

You can't justify the way Hatton had relied on spoiling and IF Cortez was on his case then he had it comming....no one was stopping Hatton from puching on the inside....Cortez was stopping Hattons grapping.

Stepin - I am the only one who calls the Yorkshire Arse - "Payne" - which to a point gives your little game away about being new to this and other forums.

Been wondering who you are for a while.

Maybe an old Forum poster having a tickle at peoples expense.

[Southpaw Stylist]

I feel Billy 'bucket boy' Graham is a complete fraud.

Does anyone remember Phil Martin???

Why when asked can he never explain what educated pressure is??

Very insecure man who surronds himself with non boxing people so he does not get found out.

Great fighters make great trainers simple as that, Ricky Hatton has not changed much since he was an amateur although he no longer move his head and has stopped punching in combination.

I was waiting for someone to mention Phil Martin. Many techniques that Graham uses have been lifted straight from him...

[jamesmcdonnell]

Mayweather would chop Williams down from the body like a lumberjack. He was always good at chopping wood, thanks to his dad. This video demonstrates my point...

It's got Zab and Floyd in it, in fact...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrzSgORnG8

He would have to get into range to do that first. Not saying he would be incapable of it, but I'd like to see it just the same.

I do think Floyd would find a way to turn just about anyone over, want to see if Cotto can mount a good challenge, but I suspect that isn't going to happen as it's not big enough money to tempt Floyd.

[DavidPayne]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

[SIMPLEY BEST]

TERRY D IF YOU REMEMBER SHANNON HAS LOST THREE CHAMPS THIS YEAR & OTHER FIGHTERS HAVE LOST TO WERE BILLY HAS ONLY LOST 2 TIMES IN 5 TO 10 YEARS BILLY GRAHAM,PHIL MARTIN & SHANNON ARE THE BEST FITNESS TRAINERS THEY GET YOU FIT & STRONG BUT THERE TECHNIQUES ARE OLD.

[Sammy Mendelson]

If Hatton had won, there would have been no rumours or talk about Billy Graham being an inefficient trainer for Ricky.

Anyway, the rumours, speculation about a split is academic now. Ricky has stated Billy will remain as trainer.

Really puts the rumours to bed in my view.

Wrong!!! - or should I say right about Billy.

Essentially you are saying Graham is staying but somebody else is going to get shown the door? It certainly shouldn't be Kerry because who else knows enough about diet and nutrition to sort Ricky out? You only need look at a prime Doz to know how good Kerry is at his job. Arguably the best in the world.

That only leaves one of the hangers on. If one of them goes, so what? It is a nothing story and not worthy of all these winks and whispers. If a back patting, bag carrier goes, who gives a toss? Not me.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

Also, by failing to penalise Mayweather for repeated use of the elbow in the neck and face (warned a total of 8 times I think it was) he basically gave him the message that he could continue doing so with impugnity.

This resulted in Hatton basically being unable to get any work done on the inside, unless he was right up close to Mayweather, and he was then smothering his own work.

Cortez continually broke them up whilst Hatton was actually working on the inside, which is wrong. The referee is meant to break them only if they are clinching and not working, or holding and hitting. I used to like Zack Padilla's approach, which was to pull off the offending arm away and allow them to keep punching. Breaking the fight continually is ridiculous, it shouldn't happen unless the flow of the fight is being ruined by constant holding.

As Dave says, I don't think Hatton could have won the fight

[boxingchat]

I feel Billy 'bucket boy' Graham is a complete fraud.

Does anyone remember Phil Martin???

Why when asked can he never explain what educated pressure is??

Very insecure man who surronds himself with non boxing people so he does not get found out.

Great fighters make great trainers simple as that, Ricky Hatton has not changed much since he was an amateur although he no longer move his head and has stopped punching in combination.

Bingo!

Right at the death this could possibly be the most honest and accurate quote of 2007.

[boxingchat]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

Also, by failing to penalise Mayweather for repeated use of the elbow in the neck and face (warned a total of 8 times I think it was) he basically gave him the message that he could continue doing so with impugnity.

This resulted in Hatton basically being unable to get any work done on the inside, unless he was right up close to Mayweather, and he was then smothering his own work.

Cortez continually broke them up whilst Hatton was actually working on the inside, which is wrong. The referee is meant to break them only if they are clinching and not working, or holding and hitting. I used to like Zack Padilla's approach, which was to pull off the offending arm away and allow them to keep punching. Breaking the fight continually is ridiculous, it shouldn't happen unless the flow of the fight is being ruined by constant holding.

As Dave says, I don't think Hatton could have won the fight

Hatton wouldn't have won that fight if Cortez and helped him by punching Floyd himself. Good luck to Hatton for amassing a fortune from this fight but really the reality was, he just was not not good enough and never will be. He's a good fighter without doubt and brave as fornicate, but quite simply Floyd is different gravy.

[dbf]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

So much has been made out of Cortez's performance, but he did let the fight flow in the middle rounds.

Ricky was not trying anything effective on the inside, and didn't jab his way in. I would understand if Ricky had 'punched his way in' but he just looked to grab.

Hardly any fuss was made out about the favouritism Dave Parris showed towards Hatton in the Tszyu fight. In allowing Ricky to grapple and wrestle on the inside, did it ruin that fight as a spectacle? Absolutely, Tszyu couldn't get any shots off.

Ever since Hatton has faced an opponent that has posed realistic threats, its as if mentally he thinks the only way to beat them is to make it ugly.

The castillo fight was not a spectacle, it was hook, hold, hold, hook hold.
Cortez kind of let that flow its course but Ricky is the one making it ugly not the ref.

Its almost as if any fan can list a whole lot of excuses, "bad ref", "bad tactics", "bodyguard in way of trainer", and then put the old, "but he would of lost anyway" disclaimer at the end.

Few people want to give Floyd full credit for winning. He out manned Hatton, he fought his fight, and when he opened up he did, at times, make hatton look like a glorified club fighter.

[/quote]

[jamesmcdonnell]

I never said he would. I don't think Hatton was good enough either.

However, I think it could have been a better and more competitive fight without Cortez' hero worshipping leading him to confer advantages to the fighter who already held them.

Mayweather is a much more skilfull fighter, and Hatton has definetly become more one dimensional over the last couple of years. He's abandoned the combination body punching which made him a success in the first place, and has become a one punch head hunter.

[StepinFetchit]

Ricky lost his head. Cortez influenced.
The connection between the two wasn't there in the corner.
Ricky hasn't thrown combinations for two years.
Ricky is a ten stone fighter.

They all seem like plain facts above.

Now the subjective, naive, novice, uninformed opinion stuff.

Pushing weights to build strength and power in a combination, volume puncher is the wrong path.
Timing, footwork, head-movement, stamina and speed are Ricky's strengths. Not as everyone now believes, his strength.

I don't care if he can lift the Phoenix Gym and Kerry Kayes' fridge - Can he throw combinations, move his head out the way of a jab, use range and land more than one shot before tying up?

Thats what matters.

Ricky has been reckless, one dimensional and ineffective for much of his post Tszyu career. You cant escape it.

But, Mayweather makes lots of fighters look pretty ordinary. That's the get out of jail card, to add to the Joe Cortez one. WHich I believe effected Ricky's chances by 50%.

And spoilt the fight as a spectacle.

Payne, your post was well put together until you started on Cortez...how T.F can you or anyone that is not a Hatton ball hugger justify the way Hatton has been allowed to clinch in fights to make a case that Cortz should not have been on top of Hatton from the start of the fight the way he was.

Take a look at the Urango fight after Hatton gets winded and the Collazo fight as soon as it began to not go his way.....Hattons fouling tacktics could have made the PBF fight into an ugley 12 round maul that would have seen Hatton having one of the most lop sided points defeats of all times after all his points deductions....because of Cortez we got to see a clean knock out ending.

Everyone except tyhe hatton d!ck riderz were fed up of his spoiling tacktics and he was being branded the new John Ruiz.

You can't justify the way Hatton had relied on spoiling and IF Cortez was on his case then he had it comming....no one was stopping Hatton from punching on the inside....Cortez was stopping Hattons grappling.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

So much has been made out of Cortez's performance, but he did let the fight flow in the middle rounds.

Ricky was not trying anything effective on the inside, and didn't jab his way in. I would understand if Ricky had 'punched his way in' but he just looked to grab.

Hardly any fuss was made out about the favouritism Dave Parris showed towards Hatton in the Tszyu fight. In allowing Ricky to grapple and wrestle on the inside, did it ruin that fight as a spectacle? Absolutely, Tszyu couldn't get any shots off.

Ever since Hatton has faced an opponent that has posed realistic threats, its as if mentally he thinks the only way to beat them is to make it ugly.

The castillo fight was not a spectacle, it was hook, hold, hold, hook hold.
Cortez kind of let that flow its course but Ricky is the one making it ugly not the ref.

Its almost as if any fan can list a whole lot of excuses, "bad ref", "bad tactics", "bodyguard in way of trainer", and then put the old, "but he would of lost anyway" disclaimer at the end.

Few people want to give Floyd full credit for winning. He out manned Hatton, he fought his fight, and when he opened up he did, at times, make hatton look like a glorified club fighter.

[/quote]

Tszyu nailed hatton with some massive shots in their fight, what are you talking about.

As I said earlier. How can Cortez repeatedly warn Mayweather for putting his elbow in Hatton's throat/face, and not take a point off, and ignore him turning his back and dipping below the waist? Please explain why Cortez did so?

Hatton was not good enough, on that I agree, but to imply that Cortez' reffing was unbiased is simply, in my opinion, incorrect.

[SIMPLEY BEST]

YES TERRY YOUR RIGHT BUT HOW MANY REMATCHS DOSE SHANNON WONT. THE CORNER WORK IS BAD ITS NOT THE SAME WERES THE OTHER TRAINER GONE HE NEW WHAT TO DO. AND ANDY MORRIS GOT KOD BY SIMPSON ON THE REMATCH THIS YEAR.

[dbf]

Stepin.

I understand the pressure was on Cortez to keep the fight clean enough to distinguish a winner but there were occasion when Cortez was grabbing Hatton from behind when Hatton was throwing punches.

It was criminal.

As I've said elsewhere. Did it effect the outcome? Probably not. Did it effect Ricky's chances of winning? Probably. Did it spoil the fight as a spectacle? Absolutely.

I'm not a Hatton hugger. And I can substantiate that.

So much has been made out of Cortez's performance, but he did let the fight flow in the middle rounds.

Ricky was not trying anything effective on the inside, and didn't jab his way in. I would understand if Ricky had 'punched his way in' but he just looked to grab.

Hardly any fuss was made out about the favouritism Dave Parris showed towards Hatton in the Tszyu fight. In allowing Ricky to grapple and wrestle on the inside, did it ruin that fight as a spectacle? Absolutely, Tszyu couldn't get any shots off.

Ever since Hatton has faced an opponent that has posed realistic threats, its as if mentally he thinks the only way to beat them is to make it ugly.

The castillo fight was not a spectacle, it was hook, hold, hold, hook hold.
Cortez kind of let that flow its course but Ricky is the one making it ugly not the ref.

Its almost as if any fan can list a whole lot of excuses, "bad ref", "bad tactics", "bodyguard in way of trainer", and then put the old, "but he would of lost anyway" disclaimer at the end.

Few people want to give Floyd full credit for winning. He out manned Hatton, he fought his fight, and when he opened up he did, at times, make hatton look like a glorified club fighter.

Tszyu nailed hatton with some massive shots in their fight, what are you talking about.

As I said earlier. How can Cortez repeatedly warn Mayweather for putting his elbow in Hatton's throat/face, and not take a point off, and ignore him turning his back and dipping below the waist? Please explain why Cortez did so?

Hatton was not good enough, on that I agree, but to imply that Cortez' reffing was unbiased is simply, in my opinion, incorrect.[/quote]

I wasn't implying Tszyu didn't tag Hatton, clearly he did, but mainly the first few shots of the round before Hatton had wrestled him to the ropes.

Didn't Cortez state quite clearly in the dressing room that if a punch was thrown to an illegal area, regardless of wheter it landed or not he would take a point without a warning?

Joe, wrongly or righlty was trying to keep the fight clean.

[chesh]

I never said he would. I don't think Hatton was good enough either.

However, I think it could have been a better and more competitive fight without Cortez' hero worshipping leading him to confer advantages to the fighter who already held them.

Mayweather is a much more skilfull fighter, and Hatton has definetly become more one dimensional over the last couple of years. He's abandoned the combination body punching which made him a success in the first place, and has become a one punch head hunter.

Good post. I don't think he'd ever beat Mayweather either. I agree Hatton has become more one-dimensional - to the extent that his old skills (head and lateral movement etc.) have all but disappeared. I have watched the Mayweather fight about a dozen times now (sad bastard, aren't I!) and the other conclusion I have drawn - not an original one, admittedly - is that Hatton now has a fairly serious stamina issue. He can't throw combos and sustain an attack like he used to (e.g. Tackie and Oliveira fights). I did suspect it before this fight, but this performance confirmed it. I doubted his claims on 24/7 etc. that, unlike DLH, he would be strong and all over Mayweather in the second half of the fight.

If you think about it, he has either not shown or not had to show great stamina since the Tszyu fight. Maussa - mediocre performance against mediocre opponent. Collazo - hanging on for dear life at the end - weight was the excuse. Urango - gassed in second half of the fight - cold was the excuse. Castillo - if he hadn't landed that bodyshot in the fourth, who knows what might have happened. Mayweather - the signs were there early in the fight that he wouldn't be able to sustain anything (even without the Cortez problem). His punches lacked snap after the fifth round (not that he'd landed many decent ones before). By round 10, he was ready for the taking. I'm sure a couple of years ago his stamina and recuperative powers would have seen him through to the final bell. I think his lifestyle has finally caught up with him and even the most rigorous training camp won't change that. I wouldn't say he's a "shot" fighter, but the qualities which made him an outstanding one have clearly diminished.

[dbf]

I never said he would. I don't think Hatton was good enough either.

However, I think it could have been a better and more competitive fight without Cortez' hero worshipping leading him to confer advantages to the fighter who already held them.

Mayweather is a much more skilfull fighter, and Hatton has definetly become more one dimensional over the last couple of years. He's abandoned the combination body punching which made him a success in the first place, and has become a one punch head hunter.

Good post. I don't think he'd ever beat Mayweather either. I agree Hatton has become more one-dimensional - to the extent that his old skills (head and lateral movement etc.) have all but disappeared. I have watched the Mayweather fight about a dozen times now (sad bastard, aren't I!) and the other conclusion I have drawn - not an original one, admittedly - is that Hatton now has a fairly serious stamina issue. He can't throw combos and sustain an attack like he used to (e.g. Tackie and Oliveira fights). I did suspect it before this fight, but this performance confirmed it. I doubted his claims on 24/7 etc. that, unlike DLH, he would be strong and all over Mayweather in the second half of the fight.

If you think about it, he has either not shown or not had to show great stamina since the Tszyu fight. Maussa - mediocre performance against mediocre opponent. Collazo - hanging on for dear life at the end - weight was the excuse. Urango - gassed in second half of the fight - cold was the excuse. Castillo - if he hadn't landed that bodyshot in the fourth, who knows what might have happened. Mayweather - the signs were there early in the fight that he wouldn't be able to sustain anything (even without the Cortez problem). His punches lacked snap after the fifth round (not that he'd landed many decent ones before). By round 10, he was ready for the taking. I'm sure a couple of years ago his stamina and recuperative powers would have seen him through to the final bell. I think his lifestyle has finally caught up with him and even the most rigorous training camp won't change that. I wouldn't say he's a "shot" fighter, but the qualities which made him an outstanding one have clearly diminished.

Yep, agreed. I truly feel that since he stepped up the level of comp he was afraid to fight the way he used to. He's not the crowd pleaser he used to be.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I suspect the same. He simply does not have the skills to execute the body attackw without leaving himself wide open against the best fighters.

It works at the lower levels where fighters have no answer to it, but as you move up in class, it becomes predictable and easily countered.

I don't think Stamina is the issue. If you watch the 9th round against Mayweather, Hatton came out bouncing around on his toes.

The problem is that he was made hesitant by Mayweather because he was getting nailed with big, accurate punches on the way in, plus Mayweather disrupted his rhythm which prevented him getting into his groove.

I'll bet if Hatton faced Rees, he will look a million dollars, and there will be bundles of punches thrown.

[harrygreb]

cant argue with that. spot on.

[Southpaw Stylist]

I suspect the same. He simply does not have the skills to execute the body attackw without leaving himself wide open against the best fighters.

It works at the lower levels where fighters have no answer to it, but as you move up in class, it becomes predictable and easily countered.

I don't think Stamina is the issue. If you watch the 9th round against Mayweather, Hatton came out bouncing around on his toes.

The problem is that he was made hesitant by Mayweather because he was getting nailed with big, accurate punches on the way in, plus Mayweather disrupted his rhythm which prevented him getting into his groove.

I'll bet if Hatton faced Rees, he will look a million dollars, and there will be bundles of punches thrown.

Yes.

[Autobarn]

Mayweather would chop Williams down from the body like a lumberjack. He was always good at chopping wood, thanks to his dad. This video demonstrates my point...

It's got Zab and Floyd in it, in fact...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrzSgORnG8

He would have to get into range to do that first. Not saying he would be incapable of it, but I'd like to see it just the same.

I do think Floyd would find a way to turn just about anyone over, want to see if Cotto can mount a good challenge, but I suspect that isn't going to happen as it's not big enough money to tempt Floyd.

Floyd looked really uncomfortable when the significantly bigger DLH used as simple a technique as a jab. Floyd's lack of real powerful hitting in weights above 140 were a bit exposed whenever DLH guarded his face - on these occasions Floyd couldn't get through. Oscar not quite accomplished enough, no t enough continuity to pull off the game plan. But Williams - 6' 2, a southpaw, a guy who throws loads of punches - would just be too big for Mayweather.

As you say, getting in range is a major issue vs a man of that size. The fact that Floyd has been buzzed by straight lefts thrown by Corley, Mitchell AND Judah would hint that fighting a bigger, prime lefthander = bad news.

Only fight I want to see Floyd in is Cotto. Hatton burned himself out going crackers in the early going. I'd like to see what Cotto's patient approach and surgcal punching would do. Think Cotto could possibly chop Mayweather down. Compact puncher and deceptive hand speed, as he showed vs Mosley.

[Southpaw Stylist]

Oscar not quite accomplished enough

You're having a laugh aren't you? If Oscar isn't then who is?

But Williams - 6' 2, a southpaw, a guy who throws loads of punches - would just be too big for Mayweather.

Just as strength isn't, height isn't everything. People are giving this Williams guy too much props. Who has he beat with Floyd's ability? What occasions has he been in as big as a fight with Floyd would be? He wqould mentally break before he even got into the ring. People are forgetting about the mental aspect of this fight, as they did with the Hatton fight. People are falling into the same old traps. I don't believe ANY fighter south of 154 can beat Mayweather. If DLH can't then Williams definitely can't. The fighter with the most chance is Vernon Forrest, purely because aside from the physical attributes, he's been there before at that level.

Williams needs to fight Cotto first.

Think Cotto could possibly chop Mayweather down.

Mayweather's been a gym rat for nearly 26 years. If you think he could get chopped down by Cotto, you're nuts. Utterly nuts.

Mosley gave Cotto fits lol. I cannot believe people are serious about Cotto-Mayweather.

[Poncey]

Oscar not quite accomplished enough

You're having a laugh aren't you? If Oscar isn't then who is?

But Williams - 6' 2, a southpaw, a guy who throws loads of punches - would just be too big for Mayweather.

Just as strength isn't, height isn't everything. People are giving this Williams guy too much props. Who has he beat with Floyd's ability? What occasions has he been in as big as a fight with Floyd would be? He wqould mentally break before he even got into the ring. People are forgetting about the mental aspect of this fight, as they did with the Hatton fight. People are falling into the same old traps. I don't believe ANY fighter south of 154 can beat Mayweather. If DLH can't then Williams definitely can't. The fighter with the most chance is Vernon Forrest, purely because aside from the physical attributes, he's been there before at that level.

Williams needs to fight Cotto first.

Think Cotto could possibly chop Mayweather down.

Mayweather's been a gym rat for nearly 26 years. If you think he could get chopped down by Cotto, you're nuts. Utterly nuts.

Mosley gave Cotto fits lol. I cannot believe people are serious about Cotto-Mayweather.

Williams comment is sot on. He needs to prove himself against another decent Welter before he can consider residing in Mayweather's domain.

I also think Cotto wouldn't last as long as Hatton did, his chin is suspect at the best of times.

DLH, if he can jab for 12 rounds and get his stamina back to what it was, is the only threat to Mayweather below 160.