Ok...
Lets say in there 1963 fight, Ali is not saved by the bell and history is re-written and the tough Briton, Cooper gets the win. This throws him into the ring against the then champ Liston, who wins his re-match against Patterson.
The fight is set for early 1964.
Henry Cooper, soft skinned but tough and valiant has the chance to be the next English world champion. His trump card is his left hook, which has just seen him victorious over the mouthy Cassius Clay.
Sonny Liston, the most feared man in the history of the sport is now sitting proudly on his thrown. Perhaps angry that he has not had the opputunity to beat the mouthy Clay, he instead fresh from his win over Patterson is to face Cooper.
Liston with his considerable size, weight and reach advantage also has a jab that is likely to draw claret from Coopers soft skin.
Liston is in top shape for his first international title defence. Cooper, has the Commonwealth behind him has trained harder than ever for this tremendous oppurtunity.
The Principles
Sonny Liston - 6'1, 215lb
Henry Cooper - 6', 187lb
Who wins and how do you guys see this fight playing out....
Sonny Litson Vs Henry Gooper 1964
Liston would have destroyed Cooper. He was bigger, stronger and simply a far better fighter. Liston wins by stoppage inside two/three rounds.... likely by clean KO, but possibly because Cooper - always prone to cuts - has been badly cut by Liston's jabs/hooks.
Henry's left hook would have no impact on Liston.... look at the Liston-Williams fights and see how Sonny shakes off bigger punches than Cooper could ever throw.
Cooper - although a very good heavyweight at British and Euro level - is a bit over-rated because of his knockdown of Clay. When he met the very top men - Patterson, Folley (though to be fair he did win the first fight versus Zora), and of course Ali - he was found wanting.
His manager - Jim Wicks - was asked would he get Cooper to fight Liston and famously replied "Get into a ring with Liston? I wouldn't even let 'Enery walk down the same street as him...!"
I met Cooper at a "dinner-do" a few years ago when he was on the after-dinner speaker circuit and asked him how he thought he'd have fared against Liston.... he was a bit non-committal, falling back on telling me that Liston was a big "animal like" fighter, and then going off on a tangent to tell me a few stories about Sonny's short visit to England - none of which had anything to do with boxing!
j
Henry's left hook would have no impact on Liston.... look at the Liston-Williams fights and see how Sonny shakes off bigger punches than Cooper could ever throw.
Cooper - although a very good heavyweight at British and Euro level - is a bit over-rated because of his knockdown of Clay. When he met the very top men - Patterson, Folley (though to be fair he did win the first fight versus Zora), and of course Ali - he was found wanting.
His manager - Jim Wicks - was asked would he get Cooper to fight Liston and famously replied "Get into a ring with Liston? I wouldn't even let 'Enery walk down the same street as him...!"
I met Cooper at a "dinner-do" a few years ago when he was on the after-dinner speaker circuit and asked him how he thought he'd have fared against Liston.... he was a bit non-committal, falling back on telling me that Liston was a big "animal like" fighter, and then going off on a tangent to tell me a few stories about Sonny's short visit to England - none of which had anything to do with boxing!
j
Liston would quit in his corner with a sore shoulder.
In a second fight Liston would collapse in the first round and be declared the loser despite the fact the "referee" never counted and Cooper never went to a neutral corner.
Then the Vietnam obsessed leftwing would make a poster of Cooper standing over Liston and it would become a best seller among the clueless,
rivalled only by sales of their Che posters.
In a second fight Liston would collapse in the first round and be declared the loser despite the fact the "referee" never counted and Cooper never went to a neutral corner.
Then the Vietnam obsessed leftwing would make a poster of Cooper standing over Liston and it would become a best seller among the clueless,
rivalled only by sales of their Che posters.
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I Feel Fine
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Is this an actual question? Liston vs. Cooper? I think we all know the answer to that. Or is this more of a ruse to bring up Clay-Cooper again without actually bringing it up? Ok, I'll bite...
I don't think its safe to assume that Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn't rung. But, ok, would that mean Liston vs. Cooper in 64... not necessarily, Cooper said he would never fight Liston.
If he had, Liston in 2 by destructive knock out or by Liston ripping Cooper's face off.
Liston of course wouldn't have suffered any shoulder injuries against Cooper, since Cooper would have presented an easier target and Liston wouldn't have been swinging wildly, missing shots, hitting nothing but air. That, of course, assumes that there would be no devious left wing plot to install Cooper as champion, as we all know was the case with "Red" Cassius...
I don't think its safe to assume that Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn't rung. But, ok, would that mean Liston vs. Cooper in 64... not necessarily, Cooper said he would never fight Liston.
If he had, Liston in 2 by destructive knock out or by Liston ripping Cooper's face off.
Liston of course wouldn't have suffered any shoulder injuries against Cooper, since Cooper would have presented an easier target and Liston wouldn't have been swinging wildly, missing shots, hitting nothing but air. That, of course, assumes that there would be no devious left wing plot to install Cooper as champion, as we all know was the case with "Red" Cassius...
Last edited by I Feel Fine on 26 Dec 2007, 14:23, edited 2 times in total.
I raised the question because there are some out there that do rate cooper pretty highly.
I personally dont think he stood a chance against Liston. And I am sure that if he did beat Clay, then he would have fought Liston for the Worlds title. After all he is a Briton and does have a sense of history.
This was not a way of raising the whole Clay-Cooper thing, BUT it does stand to reason that under different circumstances, however slight, things may have been different.
Kym
I personally dont think he stood a chance against Liston. And I am sure that if he did beat Clay, then he would have fought Liston for the Worlds title. After all he is a Briton and does have a sense of history.
This was not a way of raising the whole Clay-Cooper thing, BUT it does stand to reason that under different circumstances, however slight, things may have been different.
Kym
Cooper should rate high if he knocked "the greatest fighter of all time" down 2 rounds before the "the greatest fighter of all time" was supposedly able to "beat" Liston.Robinson wrote:I raised the question because there are some out there that do rate cooper pretty highly.
I personally dont think he stood a chance against Liston. And I am sure that if he did beat Clay, then he would have fought Liston for the Worlds title. After all he is a Briton and does have a sense of history.
This was not a way of raising the whole Clay-Cooper thing, BUT it does stand to reason that under different circumstances, however slight, things may have been different.
Kym
Why in the world are you apologizing to the members of the Religion of Ali for mentioning that 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked Ali down with a single left hook?
They should apologize for their regurgitating of the same tired talking points from the Religion of Ali over and over.
.
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Goodnight, Irene
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I don't think Robinson is asking anything more than Liston-Cooper, & to that end, Cooper doesn't stand a prayer.I Feel Fine wrote:Is this an actual question? Liston vs. Cooper? I think we all know the answer to that. Or is this more of a ruse to bring up Clay-Cooper again without actually bringing it up? Ok, I'll bite...
I don't think its safe to assume that Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn't rung. But, ok, would that mean Liston vs. Cooper in 64... not necessarily, Cooper said he would never fight Liston.
If he had, Liston in 2 by destructive knock out or by Liston ripping Cooper's face off.
Liston of course wouldn't have suffered any shoulder injuries against Cooper, since Cooper would have presented an easier target and Liston wouldn't have been swinging wildly, missing shots, hitting nothing but air. That, of course, assumes that there would be no devious left wing plot to install Cooper as champion, as we all know was the case with "Red" Cassius...
I don't see where he is going to beat Liston. In close, he would be unable to hurt the champ or effectively tie him up. At range, Liston would use him for target practice. Patterson's power felled Cooper. Liston, with a much longer reach & far heavier hands, is going to get to Cooper at any range. The devastation would be as convincing --- & perhaps similar in fashion --- to Liston's decapitation of Albert Westphal in '61.
A horrible case of mis-matching for Cooper. Clean-cut, 10-count KO in two.
granberry, IMHO your too simplistic. styles/fights/good days/bad days/ people parachuting in/ happenstance/any given fight night/psychology of the various fighters are all part of the matrix. Along with boxing fundamentals,talent, acquired skil, heart etc. You must factor in the unexpected in life and in fights. In your simple yet unique cortex "da guy I say wins is gonna win goddammit". If not, inform the east coast cuz da fix is in!
(You should agree with this one....it's a softball to you AND it's the "grand unification theory for why some guys you think should never win end up winning in spite of your "expertise".)
Now I say this with the greatest respect for both your intellect and your heterosexual persuasion of which you are so proud of and we are certainly both so bountifully blessed with.
(You should agree with this one....it's a softball to you AND it's the "grand unification theory for why some guys you think should never win end up winning in spite of your "expertise".)
Now I say this with the greatest respect for both your intellect and your heterosexual persuasion of which you are so proud of and we are certainly both so bountifully blessed with.
I think this is an easy win for Liston. After his win over Clay, who even then had a lot of hype about him.
With the Commonwealth behind him and many Euro's eager to see a non-American with the strap, alot of hype goes into this fight with all the pomp and ceremony.
Before an excited London crowd they see there man lose the first round his face already swollen from the effects of a long and stiff jab. Towards the end of the round Cooper's knee's wobble after absorbing a hard right counter to one of Cooper's left hooks missing.
The second round starts with Cooper cautiously moving in looking to jab his way inside. Liston, too big and too powerful man-handles Cooper with relative ease. Liston drops Cooper for a eight count after a series of hard, powerful shots. The end of the round bell signals Coopers salvation...though temporary.
Round Three begins with a reluctant and already beaten looking Cooper swatting wildly at times trying to land that one big punch. Liston picks him off with his rangier punches. A jab followed by a long ram rod like right cross puts Cooper down. Rolling onto his back, the Briton is counted out. Brave but over matched.
Liston KO 3.
Kym
With the Commonwealth behind him and many Euro's eager to see a non-American with the strap, alot of hype goes into this fight with all the pomp and ceremony.
Before an excited London crowd they see there man lose the first round his face already swollen from the effects of a long and stiff jab. Towards the end of the round Cooper's knee's wobble after absorbing a hard right counter to one of Cooper's left hooks missing.
The second round starts with Cooper cautiously moving in looking to jab his way inside. Liston, too big and too powerful man-handles Cooper with relative ease. Liston drops Cooper for a eight count after a series of hard, powerful shots. The end of the round bell signals Coopers salvation...though temporary.
Round Three begins with a reluctant and already beaten looking Cooper swatting wildly at times trying to land that one big punch. Liston picks him off with his rangier punches. A jab followed by a long ram rod like right cross puts Cooper down. Rolling onto his back, the Briton is counted out. Brave but over matched.
Liston KO 3.
Kym
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I Feel Fine
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Yes, but even considering this great and very hypothetical upset, the fact remains that Cooper was openly afraid of Liston and said he would never fight for the title if it was being held by Sonny. Maybe he would change his mind, but I think its more likely he would have rematched Clay or Patterson or done something more realistic. Who knows.
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cannonball
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HomicideHenry
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Cooper-Liston ironically was in the cards at one time, or was at least debated upon at that time, but Cooper and his management turned it down for the obvious reason: Liston would have won. In Cooper's own autobiography he had said the two champions he never would have fought were Liston and Marciano.
Ironically, people also forget this intriguing match-up: Liston-Moore.
Archie was still a top 10 heavyweight by the time Liston won the crown, and the match never happened; many in RING magazine wrote about the possibilities but it never did come about. Moore was hoping for a rematch with Patterson, not a match with Liston...again, I believe the sole reason was more out of intimidation, rather than skill and experience.
Anyways, Liston would have knocked Cooper out inside of two rounds. You can make the argument styles make fights, but Cooper had too many things against him...his scar tissue had scar tissue, he was a bit older even in 1964, he primarily fought on the European level and you couldnt say he was exactly world class though he would prove to be possibly the greatest British champion ever...plus Liston was just too strong, too big, too long a reach, he was fast for a big man...and if Patterson could knock Cooper out, as did Johansson...I dont see why Liston couldnt do the same thing, if not faster than they did.
Ironically, people also forget this intriguing match-up: Liston-Moore.
Archie was still a top 10 heavyweight by the time Liston won the crown, and the match never happened; many in RING magazine wrote about the possibilities but it never did come about. Moore was hoping for a rematch with Patterson, not a match with Liston...again, I believe the sole reason was more out of intimidation, rather than skill and experience.
Anyways, Liston would have knocked Cooper out inside of two rounds. You can make the argument styles make fights, but Cooper had too many things against him...his scar tissue had scar tissue, he was a bit older even in 1964, he primarily fought on the European level and you couldnt say he was exactly world class though he would prove to be possibly the greatest British champion ever...plus Liston was just too strong, too big, too long a reach, he was fast for a big man...and if Patterson could knock Cooper out, as did Johansson...I dont see why Liston couldnt do the same thing, if not faster than they did.
how many guys did a 185lb marciano knock out?granberry wrote:Cooper should rate high if he knocked "the greatest fighter of all time" down 2 rounds before the "the greatest fighter of all time" was supposedly able to "beat" Liston.Robinson wrote:I raised the question because there are some out there that do rate cooper pretty highly.
I personally dont think he stood a chance against Liston. And I am sure that if he did beat Clay, then he would have fought Liston for the Worlds title. After all he is a Briton and does have a sense of history.
This was not a way of raising the whole Clay-Cooper thing, BUT it does stand to reason that under different circumstances, however slight, things may have been different.
Kym
Why in the world are you apologizing to the members of the Religion of Ali for mentioning that 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked Ali down with a single left hook?
They should apologize for their regurgitating of the same tired talking points from the Religion of Ali over and over.
.