If Muhammed Ali Hadn't Been Banned For 3 Years

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:23

I hope, at least in the subconscious back of your mind, that you know that this post is bullshit.

The MSG crowd? Are you kidding? You are aware that Doug Jones was a New York fighter and Clay was not particularly liked, especially when he couldn't carry out his prediction to stop Jones. They cheered every time Jones landed a punch, and were clearly on his side from the get go. When Ali fought Patterson, another popular New York fighter, in the rematch, the MSG crowed roared at every punch Patterson landed and booed when the fight was stopped. Was that a controversial fight too?

Clay beat Jones rather clearly. Not a controversial fight. And I hope you realize that Clay took Jones about as seriously as I take you.

I also hope you realize that Ali was playing with Bob Foster and likely could have stopped him in three rounds if he wanted. Either way, my point was simply to compare it to Louis' performance against another Light Heavyweight in Conn. Louis actually struggled with Conn, while Foster was basically a sparring session for Ali. Conn actually hurt Louis, while Ali against Foster was like man against boy. Sure, he was cut, but what the hell does that mean? Duran cut Leonard in their third fight, does that mean Duran was competitive in that fight? Ali certainly had pretty tough skin, and it was the only time he was cut in his career.

Anyone who thinks Joe Louis had a better chin than Muhammad Ali is not worth talking to. And mentioning the Larry Holmes fight was a bit of a low blow, don't you think? Well, I guess you don't, since you have no sense. And Ali didn't even quit, the corner stopped the fight.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:33

More from the pathetic Ali salesman "I Feel Fine"

Joe Louis said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

Harold Johnson said "Jones beat Clay."

Gene Tunney said Clay embarrassed himself in that fight.

Ali salesman ifeelfine says,

"Clay beat Jones rather clearly. Not a controversial fight. "

"I also hope you realize that Ali was playing with Bob Foster and likely could have stopped him in three rounds if he wanted. "

Standard and VERY tired Religion of Ali talking point regurgurgitated there by ifeelfine.

"And mentioning the Larry Holmes fight was a bit of a low blow, don't you think? "

Apparently the Ali salesmen feel they should dictate what information about the subject of their religion should be allowed to be discussed and what should not be.

Funny as hell.

"And Ali didn't even quit, the corner stopped the fight."

Ali quit like a dog.

Anyone familiar with the long history of boxing is disgusted by what he did there.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:37

granberry wrote:More from the pathetic Ali salesman "I Feel Fine"

Joe Louis said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

Harold Johnson said "Jones beat Clay."

Gene Tunney said Clay embarrassed himself in that fight.

Ali salesman ifeelfine says,

"Clay beat Jones rather clearly. Not a controversial fight. "

"I also hope you realize that Ali was playing with Bob Foster and likely could have stopped him in three rounds if he wanted. "

Standard and VERY tired Religion of Ali talking point regurgurgitated there by ifeelfine.

"And mentioning the Larry Holmes fight was a bit of a low blow, don't you think? "

Apparently the Ali salesmen feel they should dictate what information about the subject of their religion should be allowed to be discussed and what should not be.

Funny as hell.

"And Ali didn't even quit, the corner stopped the fight."

Ali quit like a dog.

Anyone familiar with the long history of boxing is disgusted by what he did there.

Any sources for these alleged 'quotes'?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:43

More talking points...

People expected Clay to dominate Jones, and when he didn't, and with the crowd behind Jones screaming and cheering at every punch he landed, some had Jones winning. Just like a typical controversial Oscar De La Hoya fight. Fact is he clearly lost, and anyone who watches the fight objectively with the sound off (or hell, on) would know that. A lot of old time fighters didn't like Clay to begin with, and picked him to lose every fight, yet they were supposed to be objective in who they thought won that fight?

I'm sure Louis never had any controversial fights, eh?

And, really, I have always maintained that Ali should have lost to Young, to Norton in the third fight, and to Shavers. But Clay-Jones simply was not a bad decision. It was close, but not particularly close. There are plenty of decisions that are a lot more respected that I thought were closer fights than Clay-Jones.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:52

I Feel Fine wrote:More talking points...

People expected Clay to dominate Jones, and when he didn't, and with the crowd behind Jones screaming and cheering at every punch he landed, some had Jones winning. Fact is he clearly lost, and anyone who watches the fight objectively with the sound off (or hell, on) would know that. A lot of old time fighters didn't like Clay to begin with, and picked him to lose every fight, yet they were supposed to be objective in who they thought won that fight?

I'm sure Louis never had any controversial fights, eh?

For an Ali salesman like ifeelfine everyone else operates on personal spite--because that is the way the members of the Religion of Ali operate.

But in the real world overweight lightheavyweight beat Clay.

Jones hurt Clay. Clay couldn't hurt Jones even though Clay was a head taller and 25 pounds heavier.

Doug Jones ate Ali alive with a left jab. Jones hurt Ali with single right hands.

Jones outboxed Ali by a wide margin.

Ali struggled with an overweight lightheavyweight TWO FIGHTS before Ali suddenly became the "greatest of all time" by supposedly being able to "beat" Liston.

NOBODY struggles with Doug Jones and then beats Liston two fights later.

Nobody struggles with Henry Cooper and then beats Liston in his VERY NEXT fight.

Except in the fairy tale world of Ali salesmen like ifeelfine.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:58

Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:More from the pathetic Ali salesman "I Feel Fine"

Joe Louis said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

Harold Johnson said "Jones beat Clay."

Gene Tunney said Clay embarrassed himself in that fight.

Ali salesman ifeelfine says,

"Clay beat Jones rather clearly. Not a controversial fight. "

"I also hope you realize that Ali was playing with Bob Foster and likely could have stopped him in three rounds if he wanted. "

Standard and VERY tired Religion of Ali talking point regurgurgitated there by ifeelfine.

"And mentioning the Larry Holmes fight was a bit of a low blow, don't you think? "

Apparently the Ali salesmen feel they should dictate what information about the subject of their religion should be allowed to be discussed and what should not be.

Funny as hell.

"And Ali didn't even quit, the corner stopped the fight."

Ali quit like a dog.

Anyone familiar with the long history of boxing is disgusted by what he did there.

Any sources for these alleged 'quotes'?

Joe Louis said that to me as we sat in seats at the Capitol Center and watched Ali and Evangalista weigh in in the ring the day before their fight.

He also said, "That boy Jimmy Young beat Clay. Beat him good." And laughed.

Harold Johnson said that to me.

Gene Tunney was quoted in the NY papers after the Doug Jones-Clay fight.

In a RING magazine interview shortly before he died, Tunney said Ali was "a mediocre fighter, at best."

It takes someone with the knowledge of boxing of a collins, buzz, or ifeelfine
to swallow the crap presented by the religion of Ali.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Dec 2007, 17:59

Nonsense. Clay hurt Jones several times in the fight, Clay out jabbed Jones, Jones spent long periods of time in the fight doing nothing and taking punches. Anyone who thinks Jones won six rounds in that fight is either ridiculously biased or doesn't know boxing. Its just that simple. Jones did not win the fight. People watch the fight and they see the MSG crowd cheer every time Jones lands a punch, but every time Clay lands a punch or even hurts Jones the crowd does nothing, and people have this sense that Jones' punches must therefore mean more. But Clay landed a lot more than Jones did, and though it was a close fight, there is simply no way Jones won enough rounds to beat Clay.

The day I trust you, dingleberry, to score an Ali fight objectively is the same day I trust a De La Hoya fan to give a fair take on who won a close De La Hoya fight.

If you think Clay took Jones and Cooper as seriously as he took Liston, then you're simply an idiot.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 18:07

ifeelfine,

Your religion is built on quicksand.

.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Dec 2007, 18:07

granberry wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:More from the pathetic Ali salesman "I Feel Fine"

Joe Louis said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

Harold Johnson said "Jones beat Clay."

Gene Tunney said Clay embarrassed himself in that fight.

Ali salesman ifeelfine says,

"Clay beat Jones rather clearly. Not a controversial fight. "

"I also hope you realize that Ali was playing with Bob Foster and likely could have stopped him in three rounds if he wanted. "

Standard and VERY tired Religion of Ali talking point regurgurgitated there by ifeelfine.

"And mentioning the Larry Holmes fight was a bit of a low blow, don't you think? "

Apparently the Ali salesmen feel they should dictate what information about the subject of their religion should be allowed to be discussed and what should not be.

Funny as hell.

"And Ali didn't even quit, the corner stopped the fight."

Ali quit like a dog.

Anyone familiar with the long history of boxing is disgusted by what he did there.

Any sources for these alleged 'quotes'?
Joe Louis said that to me as we sat in seats at the Capitol Center and watched Ali and Evangalista weigh in in the ring the day before their fight.

He also said, "That boy Jimmy Young beat Clay. Beat him good." And laughed.

Harold Johnson said that to me.

Gene Tunney was quoted in the NY papers after the Doug Jones-Clay fight.

In a RING magazine interview shortly before he died, Tunney said Ali was "a mediocre fighter, at best."

It takes someone with the knowledge of boxing of a collins, buzz, or ifeelfine
to swallow the crap presented by the religion of Ali.

Hahaha, "Joe and Harold told me...". As if I'm going to put any stock in that sort of made up shite. Especially from a guy who felt the need to create an imaginary poster to give him some support...

The other two "sources" are too vague to be of any use at all. Just as I expected.

Anyway, if you ever do find any real sources to back up your mindless drivel, be sure to post them.

Then perhaps we can have a real debate.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Dec 2007, 18:09

Then counter my last post.

You say Clay never hurt Jones, that clearly isn't true.

You say Jones out jabbed Clay, that clearly isn't true, certainly not for the whole fight.

Jones also spent long stretches of time standing around doing nothing, getting hit.

It was a close fight, but the fact remains, Jones did not do enough to win, and Clay does not get credit for what he did do because people expected more.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Dec 2007, 18:11

The former champions...might...just might..... have wanted to preserve their own legacy from a guy who had taken all the oxygen out of the room.....based on a COMBINATION of self promotion AND actual skills. I don't blame former champions for defending ther legacy by being crtical of one who had deflated their own reputation somewhat.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 26 Dec 2007, 19:32

Some people find it difficult to Understand Boxing.

Its not a Fight, with the guy who has the longest Win-Streak wins...

Many Different Boxers showed they had Talent, that is speed, stamina and endurance etc.

Thing is Muhammed Ali was not only a Bruiser. He was an all-round charasmatic charachter in AND out of the ring.

With the Threats he faced, he still manage to get into the ring and Box.

When a Person hates something, he will fid anything to use it against it.

I think Many People are picking out Mistakes against Ali that are just dumb.

Ali Fans will say Ali Destroyed Jones.

Jones and Anti-Ali dudes will say Jones destroyed Ali.

i personally thought he did over Jones, but hey, i gues im an idiot

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 19:42

BoxBuzz wrote:The former champions...might...just might..... have wanted to preserve their own legacy from a guy who had taken all the oxygen out of the room.....based on a COMBINATION of self promotion AND actual skills. I don't blame former champions for defending ther legacy by being crtical of one who had deflated their own reputation somewhat.

The former champions just might have a knowledge of boxing different from poor buzz.

They just might.

But as far as poor buzz knows, everyone's knowledge of every subject is equal

and anyone who doesn't agree with what poor buzz has swallowed from boxing "experts" Thomas Hauser and Bert Sugar has to be "prejudiced."

LOL.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 19:45

Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
Any sources for these alleged 'quotes'?
Joe Louis said that to me as we sat in seats at the Capitol Center and watched Ali and Evangalista weigh in in the ring the day before their fight.

He also said, "That boy Jimmy Young beat Clay. Beat him good." And laughed.

Harold Johnson said that to me.

Gene Tunney was quoted in the NY papers after the Doug Jones-Clay fight.

In a RING magazine interview shortly before he died, Tunney said Ali was "a mediocre fighter, at best."

It takes someone with the knowledge of boxing of a collins, buzz, or ifeelfine
to swallow the crap presented by the religion of Ali.

Hahaha, "Joe and Harold told me...". As if I'm going to put any stock in that sort of made up shite. Especially from a guy who felt the need to create an imaginary poster to give him some support...

The other two "sources" are too vague to be of any use at all. Just as I expected.

Anyway, if you ever do find any real sources to back up your mindless drivel, be sure to post them.

Then perhaps we can have a real debate.

Join a junior high school debating society for your "debate," halfwit.

What kind of screwed up mentality thinks he can "debate" a subject he has no experience with and is completely clueless on?

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Dec 2007, 19:48

The members of the Religion of Ali are frantic that anyone might question their Scriptures as written by Thomas Hauser, Bert Sugar, Norman Mailer and other religious "authorities."

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Dec 2007, 20:07

observer1 wrote:Ali Fans will say Ali Destroyed Jones.

Not sure if this was meant to be a comment about me, but just for the sake of clarity, I didn't say Ali destroyed Jones. I thought it was a close fight that Clay won by a couple of rounds.

What I do find funny is that granny is citing Sugar as an Ali fan. Sugar ranks Louis ahead of Ali, and has said all kinds of things about Ali that I disagree with. The only time I've ever heard Mailer discuss Ali was in "When We Were Kings," and I didn't find him to be particularly pro-Ali, though he clearly seemed to like Ali. He liked Foreman too.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 28 Dec 2007, 09:50

granberry is clearly an idiot his hatred of ali goes so deep you would think ali did something incredibily bad to harm him, ali would have beat tunney around the ring, he would have beat louis not beaten him senseless but he would of won a decision, it is true louis fought in a weaker era than ali, ali may have got some gift decisions later in his career but he was so far over the hill he was in the ocean, i do not listen to anything granberry says about ali as he has a very, very deep hatred and he needs to go see a shrink

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Dec 2007, 10:16

Ali was a great fighter. I have him as number 1 at HW.

BUT Granberry makes some good points. I agree that Ali has been built up to mythical proportions. I also agree that the media pushed Ali as hero (rightly or wrongly). That's how the media works. They want a story and a money-maker (they don't really care for who was the greatest in a sporting sense.). Ali also profitted from his persona outside of the ring with decisions going his way at the end of his career. If you are a ticket seller then boxing will breaks its rules and bend over backwards to accomodate you.

Granberry might be a bit rude but he offers a fresh perspective on boxing history and obviously has been around the sport enough to have some authority. If you're an Ali fan then stand up and make your argument don't just throw insults around.

As for Mailer he was a key figure in what is now considered to be the New Journalism movement. He tried to bring some of the machismo back to the intellectual in a similar way to Hemingway. Mailer's an interesting writer but his work doesn't really reach out to me in the way that other American greats do.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 28 Dec 2007, 15:16

Ezzard wrote:Ali was a great fighter. I have him as number 1 at HW.

BUT Granberry makes some good points. I agree that Ali has been built up to mythical proportions. I also agree that the media pushed Ali as hero (rightly or wrongly). That's how the media works. They want a story and a money-maker (they don't really care for who was the greatest in a sporting sense.). Ali also profitted from his persona outside of the ring with decisions going his way at the end of his career. If you are a ticket seller then boxing will breaks its rules and bend over backwards to accomodate you.

Granberry might be a bit rude but he offers a fresh perspective on boxing history and obviously has been around the sport enough to have some authority. If you're an Ali fan then stand up and make your argument don't just throw insults around.
As for Mailer he was a key figure in what is now considered to be the New Journalism movement. He tried to bring some of the machismo back to the intellectual in a similar way to Hemingway. Mailer's an interesting writer but his work doesn't really reach out to me in the way that other American greats do.

Ezzard, if you take time to read through the threads you will see people have countered granberry's comments. Repeatedly. And usually without rancour until granberry replies with abuse.

You say granberry makes some good points. Can I assume you consider the following to be among the good points:

Doug Jones beat Ali clearly but the judges had been bribed to give the decision to Ali.

The Ali victory over Moore was of no importance.

Ali's gloves were changed in the first fight with Cooper.

Both the Ali - Liston fights were fixed.

Patterson's back was so damaged prior to the first fight with Ali that he should have been in hospital. Therefore another meaningless win for Ali.

The Ali win over Terrell was not clear cut.

And that's just his views on 60's Ali.

Which of those do you consider good points?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 28 Dec 2007, 16:54

granberry wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:The former champions...might...just might..... have wanted to preserve their own legacy from a guy who had taken all the oxygen out of the room.....based on a COMBINATION of self promotion AND actual skills. I don't blame former champions for defending ther legacy by being crtical of one who had deflated their own reputation somewhat.
The former champions just might have a knowledge of boxing different from poor buzz.

They just might.

But as far as poor buzz knows, everyone's knowledge of every subject is equal

and anyone who doesn't agree with what poor buzz has swallowed from boxing "experts" Thomas Hauser and Bert Sugar has to be "prejudiced."

LOL.

*I do not believe everyone's knowledge is equal.
*I suspect your knowledge of boxing physics and techniques is superior to my own
*I think I made a good point when dealing with natural human bias and how it could be a factor
*I tend to think that life is not a series of "conspiracies" vs your worldview
*I beleive that YOU are now one of the boxing experts that I am using to continue to form my opinions....
*There is wheat and chaff in what you say and it is perhaps more an art than a skill in seperating the two
*I beleive YOU struggle with seperating your knowledge of the nuts and bolts vs your assumptions of imagined drama and intrigue.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 29 Dec 2007, 00:09

Ezzard wrote:I agree that Ali has been built up to mythical proportions. I also agree that the media pushed Ali as hero (rightly or wrongly). That's how the media works.

One could say the same of Louis or Marciano. As for the media, as we mentioned earlier in the thread, they abused Ali for half his career, it was only later that they started to praise him. Lets just call it even, or at least lets recognize that there are two sides to the story.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 29 Dec 2007, 03:24

I don't think Louis's various knockdowns against Galento, Baer and Braddock hurt him much because he proceeded to get up and knockout the guys that put him down, ending the fights decisively in his favor rather than leaving things up to the judges.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 29 Dec 2007, 03:29

The arguement that Ali fought in a stronger era than Louis is unconvincing. Louis was more dominant than Ali and did not allow his opponnents to enhance their reputations by beating him or giving him considerable trouble. What is so special about Ali's era?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 29 Dec 2007, 04:40

Cojimar 1945 wrote:The arguement that Ali fought in a stronger era than Louis is unconvincing. Louis was more dominant than Ali and did not allow his opponnents to enhance their reputations by beating him or giving him considerable trouble. What is so special about Ali's era?

You missed the first fights with Schmeling, Walcott & Conn?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 29 Dec 2007, 06:59

If Braddock knocked him down, what if it had been Liston?

The argument that Ali fought in a stronger era than Louis is unconvincing? I doubt even most Louis fans would agree with you on that. Liston vs. Baer, Patterson vs. Sharkey, Frazier vs. Schmeling, Norton vs. Braddock, Foreman vs. Walcott, Foster vs. Conn, Shavers vs. Galento, Quarry vs. Carnera? Ali fought in the best era of Heavyweight history, Louis' was basically average or maybe even below average.

Up until age 34, Louis was not more dominant than Ali. On their 34th birthday's Ali had lost two fights, both avenged, Louis had lost one fight, avenged, and had gotten the controversial victory over Walcott. After that Ali was shot and had five fights that were either losses or questionable wins, but Louis was still decent enough to beat Walcott in a rematch and was even able to stay a top contender upon his comeback, though he lost to Charles and Marciano. All and all, and considering the differences in opposition they had to face, that's not exactly the stark contrast in "dominance" that some Louis advocates would like to make it out to be. If Louis had to fight Frazier three times maybe he would have been finished sooner too.

To me, its more a question of who were they dominating. Marciano went undefeated in a weak era, that doesn't make him better than Ali or Louis, does it?

And as collins suggested, you're simply uninformed to say that Louis didn't make any careers with some of his performances; Schmeling would have unfortunately gotten lost in the mix of short lived 1920's champions, Conn would not be remembered at all the same way, and Louis at least helped make Walcott into the star that he became. I won't even mention Charles and Marciano.

If Muhammed Ali Hadn't Been Banned For 3 Years

Louis fights

eras

Re: eras