Robinson et al and the Ali love

[Collins2000]

Observer and I feel Fine,believe me I know how you guys and a lot others feel about Ali. In all of boxing history there has never been anyone bigger than life than Ali. You could probably throw in the other sports as well. We know that after he came back he was not the same fighter that he once was. But what's right is right. Holding your opponent too much is not allowed. Believe me Ray Robinsin never got any special treatment when he came back and he lost a lot of fights.

When you mention Louis,Charles,Robinson,and Gavilan it was a dfferent generation. A lot less media,but more important it was still an adult culture. Adults dictated what the norms of society were. After Elvis,the country was handed over to the youth. The media and advertisors knew that young people were going to rise and assert themselves. Set the benchmarks for music,dress,television,morals ,movies,conduct,following the rules,the war in Vietnam. Muhammad Ali was a voice for young people. Young people did not want to see him lose. Young people are dreamers. They weren't objective,especially when Ali came back,when they saw him fight. The Rope a Dope was a thing of brilliance. No it wasn't . It was stalling. If Louis or Robinson would have resorted to the Rope a Dope they would have been disqualified back then,and more important---booed.

Ali was a showman,an entertainer. He made us laugh. Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were old guys. We did not see them in ourselves. The poor people of Zaire loved Ali,not Foreman. Ali represented the masses. I remember Elvis gave Ali a robe that said"The People's Champion" Ali wore that robe. He was proud of it.

The 70's generation did not want to see Ali's image in decline. He was allowed to hold. Rope a Dope was his intelligence .We thought of the young Ali who was on his toes,circling the ring,reciting poetry,standing over Big Bad Sonny Liston. He could do that again if he wanted. He was our conscience. Ali represents me,not my parents.

But when Ali finally fought Holmes,all the Rope a Doping and stalling in the world couldn't help him. We could see he was gone,at least as a fighter.

Believe me please I DO NOT HATE MUHAMMAD ALI. At one time he was my conscience also. I've never regretted that. It just is sooner or later you look back on things and realize that you've grown.

So, now we've had the pop culture 101 history lesson, where do you rate Ali as a heavyweight?

Hey buddy,awhile back we had a thread. The match you'd like to see the most when both fighters were in their prime. Mine, Ali/Louis. The winner:Muhammad Ali--the Greatest. The Greatest Heavyweight Champ of all Time!

Thank you, dago, I shall bear that in mind as I read your posts.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm here to talk about boxing, not pop culture. What are we trying to do here, anyway? Downgrade every fighter that was popular? If that's the case, you can start with Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. They, in their own times, were as famous, and none of them beat anyone as good as the guys Ali beat.

To be quite honest, you must not know much about The Manassa Mauler, as Jack Dempsey was actually one of the most hated Heavyweight champions in history. It was due to him not being in WW1, and when photos were faked showing Dempsey in a boot camp and this was proven false, Dempsey was considered a traitor and a coward to his country.

That in part, was the reason why Carpentier-Dempsey was boxing's first multi-millionaire gate; and it was ironic that for the first time a non-American was considered the hero, and the favorite, over the American champion (Carpentier was French). People actually booed, when Dempsey won.

And people also wanted Firpo to win when Dempsey fought him. It wasnt until after the first Tunney fight, that Dempsey became a good guy again, with the legendary long count of the second fight, where people thought Dempsey was genuinely cheated.

Dempsey was popular when he beat Willard, but from then out, least until the long count fight, he was just about the most hated and controversial champion. Dempsey, of course, in his later years would serve in WW2 in the Coast Guard to make up for his 'mistake' of not going into WW1.

As far as the comment that neither Dempsey, Marciano or Louis ever faced anyone remotely good as Ali....there is some truth to that, but, there was alot of similarities in some opponents that each of those men fought.

When Dempsey fought the likes of Tunney, he was passed his best, but Gene Tunney's skill and toughness, speed, was a bit like Ali in a sense. Mind you also, Ali once said of the older champions, least with the stylists, that Tunney probably would have been the one to have given him the most problems.

With Marciano, it was a combination of Charles and Walcott. Walcott was an innovator of moves and was tricky as hell, just like Ali. Charles, though passed his best, was still the fastest man on the scene at the time, somewhat mirroring Ali.

With Joe Louis, it was Billy Conn, who was a better boxer and was much faster.

How would each of them had done against Ali? It be a hard answer, because I do not believe there is any one definate answer. But, in a series, I think Dempsey and Marciano and Louis would at least win once out of three against Ali.

[I Feel Fine]

Well in Dempsey's case I meant famous, not necessarily popular in his own championship days. I'm well aware of the dislike many had of Dempsey, for the reasons you stated. From my understanding he did become more popular as time went on. I was also aware that he served in World War II later, to try to dispell the idea that he was a draft dodger. If you want to take a page from granberry you can question me on anything you like on one of Dempsey's title fights, I think my knowledge on Dempsey's career is quite up to scratch with anyone here.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think it's being understated a bit how popular Dempsey eventually became. He was immensely beloved, especially late in his career & forever after, though he wasn't entirely unpopular earlier, either.

If you look at some of the films, when he appears in public there are sweeping views of radical crowds that go absolutely rabid at the sight of him. It isn't, in my view, unreasonable to compare the fervour & adoration you see in some of these clips to what we now see for Ali, minus much of the media exposure that was available to the later-arriving Ali. I was even reading once of telegram reports of Dempsey's fight with Carpentier in New Zealand. In the 20's! Give Rickard his due, but Dempsey had serious charisma.

Dempsey, Louis, Ali & Tyson are probably the stand-outs amongst the great champions who the everyman on the street knew at least something about, even if they didn't know boxing.

[I Feel Fine]

Right, that's my understanding of it. He wasn't quite as popular as champion, but he became more generally popular as time went on, and to my understanding was more liked after he was champion, after losing the title to Tunney.

I would also add Marciano to that list.

I know Al Capone was supposed to be a very big Dempsey fan.

[dagosd2000]

Right, that's my understanding of it. He wasn't quite as popular as champion, but he became more generally popular as time went on, and to my understanding was more liked after he was champion, after losing the title to Tunney.

I would also add Marciano to that list.

I know Al Capone was supposed to be a very big Dempsey fan.

Dempsey got popular after the Firpo fight and then the public took him all the way when he fought Tunney. Ever read stuff written by Tunney? He would have won on Jeopardy. A real snooty guy. How he'd rather read Shakespeare than box. The public wanted Dempsey to win against Tunney. Dempsey's popularity maintained after his career was over:boxing exhibitions,his restaurant on Broadway was a must see in New York. The day when men were men. Must have been like going to testosterone heaven. My father took my mother there though once to meet the Manassa Mauler. My dad ate lunch a few times with Dempsey in Chicago. My mother thought Dempsey was very gracious and funny.Wish I could have gone there.

You're right about Capone being a Dempsey fan. He tried to make something happen when the fight was in Chicago. No way this time Mr. Brown. Dempsey headquartered in New York,but he was a very popular in the Windy City.

[zojo]

I'm here to talk about boxing, not pop culture. What are we trying to do here, anyway? Downgrade every fighter that was popular? If that's the case, you can start with Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. They, in their own times, were as famous, and none of them beat anyone as good as the guys Ali beat.

To be quite honest, you must not know much about The Manassa Mauler, as Jack Dempsey was actually one of the most hated Heavyweight champions in history. It was due to him not being in WW1, and when photos were faked showing Dempsey in a boot camp and this was proven false, Dempsey was considered a traitor and a coward to his country.

That in part, was the reason why Carpentier-Dempsey was boxing's first multi-millionaire gate; and it was ironic that for the first time a non-American was considered the hero, and the favorite, over the American champion (Carpentier was French). People actually booed, when Dempsey won.

And people also wanted Firpo to win when Dempsey fought him. It wasnt until after the first Tunney fight, that Dempsey became a good guy again, with the legendary long count of the second fight, where people thought Dempsey was genuinely cheated.

Dempsey was popular when he beat Willard, but from then out, least until the long count fight, he was just about the most hated and controversial champion. Dempsey, of course, in his later years would serve in WW2 in the Coast Guard to make up for his 'mistake' of not going into WW1.

As far as the comment that neither Dempsey, Marciano or Louis ever faced anyone remotely good as Ali....there is some truth to that, but, there was alot of similarities in some opponents that each of those men fought.

When Dempsey fought the likes of Tunney, he was passed his best, but Gene Tunney's skill and toughness, speed, was a bit like Ali in a sense. Mind you also, Ali once said of the older champions, least with the stylists, that Tunney probably would have been the one to have given him the most problems.

With Marciano, it was a combination of Charles and Walcott. Walcott was an innovator of moves and was tricky as hell, just like Ali. Charles, though passed his best, was still the fastest man on the scene at the time, somewhat mirroring Ali.

With Joe Louis, it was Billy Conn, who was a better boxer and was much faster.

How would each of them had done against Ali? It be a hard answer, because I do not believe there is any one definate answer. But, in a series, I think Dempsey and Marciano and Louis would at least win once out of three against Ali.

Correct!

However, Jack became popular once he lost to Tunny because he was one of the first losing champs who actually lost graciously - and raised Gene's hand after the bout. It was at that time public opinion shifted.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

A standard leftwing ploy is to say that, "If you don't agree with me, then you are a "hater." "

That is a tired, worn out, easily recognizable tool of the leftwing propagandist.

Ali was a mediocre boxer. Jimmy Young made an ass of him.
Doug Jones was clearly superior to Ali.

Ali couldn't punch. He proved that repeatedly.

I have seen much better fighters than Ali.

Many of them.

As one rabid member of the Religion of Ali wrote above, "Ali transcended boxing."

WHY?

Because he is the darling of the leftwing?

Is he a religious figure?

The exhibition members of the Religion of Ali make of themselves is pathetic.

Their religion is built on quicksand.

The gasbag media sell of Ali certainly transcends any other propaganda campaigm mounted by the stooge media.

And for what purpose exactly?

A tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Macbeth, 5. 5


Who should posters at boxrec believe- a man who pretends to be an "insider" but refuses to reveal his true identity or Zora Folley:


"...There's no way to train yourself for what he does. The moves the speed, the punches, and the way he changes style every time you have him figured. The right hands Ali hit me just had no business landing but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. I've never seen anybody who could do that. The knockdown punch was so fast I never saw it. He has lots of snaps, and when the punches land they dizzy your head.; they fuzz up your mind. He's smart. The trickiest fighter I have ever seen. He's had twenty nine fights and acts like had one hundred. He could write the book on boxing , and anyone that fights him should be made to read it."



Oh, and Ali was thirty four years old, past his prime, and ridiculously overweight at 230 pounds ( a weight he never surpassed in his entire career until he was a 40 year old 236 1/2 pound man with Parkinson's Syndrome fighting to a decision loss against Trevor Berbick...) when he chased Jimmy Young out of the ring twice on his way to a unanimous decision...Only a vacuous and intellectually bankrupt hater would cite that fight as being in anyway emblematic of his career...

I hope to God there are people familiar with American sports reading this... Judging Ali by the Young fight makes as much sense as judging Michael Jordan by his performance as a Washington Wizard, Wille Mays' performance as a New York Met, and Johnny Unitas' performance as a San Diego Charger...