Reasons why Team USA is not as good as they can be

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 29 Dec 2007, 15:48

The New York golden gloves from 1927 sold out Madison square gardens up untill the 1970s
(thats 20k people selling out the Garden to watch AM boxing)

The New York Golden gloves moved to the felt forum in the 80s(1988)

The felt forum holds 5.5 K people,the reason for the fall in interest was the closing of AM gyms

AM boxing is very tribal when there is no local hero involved that = less interest

no doubt

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 29 Dec 2007, 19:29

It seems to be the same story all over the country. The popularity of amateur boxing seems to have waned right after the rule requiring headgear was implemented. However, pro boxing no longer was on network TV on a regular basis and amateur boxing also disappeared from network TV. So it is hard to say what really caused it. There are also a lot more sports and other activities available to young people these days.

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 29 Dec 2007, 20:30

Dennis wrote:It seems to be the same story all over the country. The popularity of amateur boxing seems to have waned right after the rule requiring headgear was implemented. However, pro boxing no longer was on network TV on a regular basis and amateur boxing also disappeared from network TV. So it is hard to say what really caused it. There are also a lot more sports and other activities available to young people these days.

Hey Dennis,granted you have a point about the head gear,still thats not the crux of the problem

You say more sports are avialable for young people in the USA ?
(can you name them ?)

Last time i looked

The USA 1980s had the NBA,NFL and was full of talented athelets and STILL the USA produced more top class AMs
(the USA creamed Cuba /Russia in the 1970s olympics)

btw

Less AM gyms = less talent

its kinda hard to be a boxer when you live 6 bus rides to your nearest AM gym,i bet Brazil would rival Cuba if Brazil had a WORLD class AM system

beyond a shadow of a doubt

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 30 Dec 2007, 01:19

You assume that less gyms=less boxers but maybe it is less boxers=less gyms.

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 30 Dec 2007, 16:42

Dennis wrote:You assume that less gyms=less boxers but maybe it is less boxers=less gyms.

Dennis

In the USA the obesity rate is the highest in the world,so this doesnt help US AM boxing BUT this rubbish about all the talent being in the NFL is utter garbage
(the NFL was around in the 80s ,so was the NBA)

Bert Sugar should lay of the crack pipe

even though the USA has the highest obesity rate in the world it still is a power house in world AM boxing even though the US AM power is fading because the US still has a world class AM system even with the hundreds of AM gyms closing in the US theres still a decent albeit faded US AM system
(compared to Brazil or Nigeria)

btw

I wonder what would happen if Cuba closed hundreds of its AM gyms ?

IF that happened

(Cuba would no longer be a power house in Olympic boxing son)

plain and simple

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 30 Dec 2007, 22:06

Dennis and Class if can add my 92cents worth. I just watched the world strongman competition. Little Poland get #1 & #2 the USA gets like #5 or #6. How can the greatest country in the world get beat like this? Because in Poland this title is revered and says that we produce the strongest men in the world. It is big news in that country and news is marketing. You mentioned the Golden Gloves. They started as a great marketing idea to sell newspapers by a Chicago sports writer. The idea got even better by spreading it to N.Y and have the two cities compete to see who has the best young amateurs. All so they could sell more newspapers. As the Gloves spread across the country boxing got bigger and bigger. Then, as in so many businesses, the sport held itself afloat just from the past success. By the time things dropped to present levels, marketing the Gloves wasn't about some big newspapers circulation and making money, it was about the sport trying to market itself. USA Boxing which I am a strong supporter of , still does not have the name recognition of the Golden Gloves due to marketing done long ago. I believe boxing can make a come back, because it has all the elements needed. Dedicated athletes that have talent, major action during competition, a rich history and because in some ways we can be considered the collage equivalent to pro football or basketball. Marketing is what we need to reach the new young sports fans and future athletes, new marketing to a new generation.
You see men buying hair jell but not from a comercials that goes " a little dab will do you" . Anyone ready to gamble on marketing amateur boxing, like A2P did, is going to want to have a lot to say about how things are done. Wheather it's clothing brands, beverage companies, or hair coloring for men, someone has got to believe in a profit before helping. Just like Gillette did on the Friday Night Fights back in the sixties. MMA, if nothing else, has shown us that a failed sport can comeback very strong with the right marketing. You can sell snowballs in Alaska if you market them right. The great P.T Barnum once had a problem getting people to leave his shows so more paying customers could enter the big tent. He had a big fancy sign made that read "THIS WAY TO SEE THE BIG EGRESS". After leaving the tent, it took the customers a few minutes to figure out that an EGRESS was French for exit, and even that made them laugh. Marketing!

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 31 Dec 2007, 14:52

Squareing

Granted better marketing would help,lets be honest the people who break their backs running AM gyms get more or less no help,infact they are under pressure with insurance laws and local goverment nit pickers

Ever wondered why the UK has produced more world class white boxers in the last 20 years than the USA ?
(uk = 60 million white people,the US = 200 million white people)

In the USA 1960/70s almost of the AM gyms in the suburbs of the USA(white areas) closed their AM gyms,the result ?

The inner city gyms in the USA produced the next generation of Top Class AMs

Now even the USA inner city AM gyms are closing(black areas) and the Suburbs are getting funding ,why is that ?

Louis Farrakhan warned about this,what will you do if they turn their back on you ?

Kelly Pavlik is just the start,there is a reason for everything

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 31 Dec 2007, 15:45

I agree with Squarering. The future of boxing is indeed in marketing our sport. We need to widen our fan base-in whatever way we can figure out. For instance, if the boxing workout area in a community center or Boys and Girls Club is within eyeshot of the basketball games (other end of the gym or something), those people watching the basketball game will start watching and hopefully devevelop an interest in the boxing. When they see the enthusiasm of the kids, they might look further into the sport. We all know that many amateur gyms close because finances stink. Like Barnum, we need a "gimmick". A nice "boxercise" circuit training area for the enjoyment of the paying customers (complete with pink gloves for some) placed a little down the way from the athletes (young and old) that are working hard and looking good might creat a sort of comraderie between the two. And yes, media is essential. We need more local, good heroes for our youth, and local boxers could fill that need.
Our entire nation is struggling with obesity, couch-potatoe syndrome, and lethargy. Kids need incentive to train, too many other things are easier, like drugs, crime, etc. If the money were there to supply free Tshirts, a hat, a keychain, etc for an achiever, our job would be so much easier. That inner drive doesn't seem to be in many of our youth today, but with the right incentives, and some success, I think that we can help uncover that drive-whick sure does help one down the road of life.
Our Olympians of the future are being cultivated in our gyms today, and I sure hope we can keep that tide coming.

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 31 Dec 2007, 16:50

kidscoach wrote:I agree with Squarering. The future of boxing is indeed in marketing our sport. We need to widen our fan base-in whatever way we can figure out. For instance, if the boxing workout area in a community center or Boys and Girls Club is within eyeshot of the basketball games (other end of the gym or something), those people watching the basketball game will start watching and hopefully devevelop an interest in the boxing. When they see the enthusiasm of the kids, they might look further into the sport. We all know that many amateur gyms close because finances stink. Like Barnum, we need a "gimmick". A nice "boxercise" circuit training area for the enjoyment of the paying customers (complete with pink gloves for some) placed a little down the way from the athletes (young and old) that are working hard and looking good might creat a sort of comraderie between the two. And yes, media is essential. We need more local, good heroes for our youth, and local boxers could fill that need.
Our entire nation is struggling with obesity, couch-potatoe syndrome, and lethargy. Kids need incentive to train, too many other things are easier, like drugs, crime, etc. If the money were there to supply free Tshirts, a hat, a keychain, etc for an achiever, our job would be so much easier. That inner drive doesn't seem to be in many of our youth today, but with the right incentives, and some success, I think that we can help uncover that drive-whick sure does help one down the road of life.
Our Olympians of the future are being cultivated in our gyms today, and I sure hope we can keep that tide coming.

why does the UK produce more white world class boxers than the USA ?

There is a reason for everything son

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 31 Dec 2007, 17:08

[quotewhy does the UK produce more white world class boxers than the USA ? ]

I didn't speak to that because I really don't care what color an athlete is. A World Class Athlete is a World Class Athlete regardless of color. Seems to me that we should all be in this together to help revitilize our sport[/quote]

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 31 Dec 2007, 17:49

well you might duck the question,but the Truth still stands ,the USA has not produced many white boxers since the 60s

why is that ?

were the AM gyms are, is were the boxing talent comes from that is fact not reason

Kelly Pavlik,know the score and the reason

btw

who cares what colour an athelete is ?(i agree)no one cares

but there must be a reason why most boxers from the US are black and white atheletes are looked at as 2nd class in the US

Funny how eastern Europe is controlling the upper limits of boxing in 2007/8

why is that ?

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 31 Dec 2007, 19:56

well you might duck the question,but the Truth still stands ,the USA has not produced many white boxers since the 60s why is that ?

And, besides yourself. who cares? I thought this thread was about the "decline" of amateur boxing in the U.S. I'm beginning to think you're a rabble-rouser.

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 01 Jan 2008, 04:12

boxmel wrote:
And, besides yourself. who cares? I thought this thread was about the "decline" of amateur boxing in the U.S. I'm beginning to think you're a rabble-rouser.

boxmel

Its just interesting to look at the AM boxing equation,that includes looking at the sudden drop of white US world class boxers from the US 1970s onwards,there was a change
(i know you agree)

why is that ?

Is it so wrong to ask questions ? i mean this is the internet,were minds meet and everyday people just for once for the first time in their lives people can hear different view points that you dont get from the pc brainwashing main stream media

I mean, now in 2008 there is a MASSIVE drop of US black boxers,is this to do with inner city AM gyms closing like wild fire ?
(it must be happening for a reason,right ?)

btw

I hear china is doing a lot better at AM boxing
(maybe they are opening AM gyms ?)

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 01 Jan 2008, 15:54

Classboxer has valid points if you want to break boxing down to ethnicity. It is no secret that roll models motivate people of thier own ethnicity. When Joe Louis beat Schmelling, gyms started to fill up with young black kids that aspire to be next the Brown Bomber. In the same way a whole country can be motivated by an Athlete that is from that country as in the way Tiger Woods drew more kids both white and black to golf. When there is a big media hyped fight that lives up to the hype, I see an increase in the kids in the gym. If too much time goes by with no more "marketing of boxing, many loose interest and leave, as if the sport can't support an ongoing media coverage like Football, basketball, and so many other sports that have whole TV channels dedicated to talking about that one sport. I get sick to my stomach when I go in a Barns & Noble with 6 rows of magazines and can't find a boxing magazine/ Yet, there staring you in the face, are 5 or 6 MMA rags, WWF rags and as many martial arts magazines. Don't even count the Football and Basketball choices. As Far as Kelly Pavlic, I am not sure what Class is saying. To me he's just another kid that came into a gym and liked the sport enough to stick with it and had a quality coach that cared about him. If he turns out to motivate young white kids to get to a gym and use him as a roll model, that's fine too. As far as the color thing, if you would like to see more white boxers to bolster the total number of boxers in the sport and in turn create better competition , which leads to better athletes from the US, I am all for that. White, Black, Puerto Rican, Dominican or any other kid that will come in the gym with a good attitude for the long haul and I don't care , you gotta love them if you love the sport. I just want the numbers up and the media to cover it more. Turn that catch 22 around and that's what will happen.

emile · Post by **emile** » 04 Jan 2008, 10:59

Since the NY Golden Gloves were mentioned as an indicator.

Apparently, there are 1045 boxers signed up this year, the most in ages.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... ml?ref=rss

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 04 Jan 2008, 11:40

WOW! What a great article, that gives some well needed hope to boxing purests. I hope it is read by others that are trying to help expand the sport across the country. When something starts moving, that's the time to push harder. They are one of the few places that buck the trend and it seems that the common thread for the reasons listed by everyone is more exposure. I would love to see crowds like that at national tournaments. As a side note, I knew Johnny when he held the franchise in N.Y. His was a story in itself.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 04 Jan 2008, 14:17

For the NY GG, many of those boxers are novice and will not advance. I also think it includes junior boxers, but am not sure.

ctill · Post by **ctill** » 04 Jan 2008, 16:21

classboxer wrote:
boxmel wrote:
And, besides yourself. who cares? I thought this thread was about the "decline" of amateur boxing in the U.S. I'm beginning to think you're a rabble-rouser.
boxmel

Its just interesting to look at the AM boxing equation,that includes looking at the sudden drop of white US world class boxers from the US 1970s onwards,there was a change
(i know you agree)

why is that ?

Is it so wrong to ask questions ? i mean this is the internet,were minds meet and everyday people just for once for the first time in their lives people can hear different view points that you dont get from the pc brainwashing main stream media

I mean, now in 2008 there is a MASSIVE drop of US black boxers,is this to do with inner city AM gyms closing like wild fire ?
(it must be happening for a reason,right ?)

btw

I hear china is doing a lot better at AM boxing
(maybe they are opening AM gyms ?)

Yes China has opened alot of amatuer gyms across the contry with help from several U.S citizens like Evander Holyfield. Remember China and Cuba are allies Castros brother is also helping them by sending some of Cubas best trainers there to help. So probably from 2008-2012 we will start to see more Chinese world class boxers.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 04 Jan 2008, 20:25

boxmel - Its just interesting to look at the AM boxing equation,that includes looking at the sudden drop of white US world class boxers from the US 1970s onwards,there was a change
(i know you agree)

Just how do you know I agree? Hmmmm?

I

mean, now in 2008 there is a MASSIVE drop of US black boxers

,

Can you please show me the figures to back this up?

I hear china is doing a lot better at AM boxing
(maybe they are opening AM gyms ?)

China started getting heavily involved with boxing when they first began bidding for the Olympics.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 05 Jan 2008, 14:55

Yes, marketing the sport is the key.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 05 Jan 2008, 14:59

classboxer, If you really are worried about the lack of white boxers you could open a gym in an area that has a mostly caucasian population. However, you may find out that you won't get many dedicated boxers. Don't believe the hype of "if you build it, they will come."

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 05 Jan 2008, 15:56

boxmel wrote:
Just how do you know I agree? Hmmmm?

How do i know you agree ?

There was a drop of US white boxers from the 60s onwards,maybe you dont agree and are a bit simple but it did happen Boxmel

Didnt the US top AMs just get schooled by the UK ?
(you knows its True)

boxmel wrote: Can you please show me the figures to back this up?

Yeah of course there is a drop of US black boxers,check out the HW division,get the picture Boxmel ?

btw

Squaring

The reason why i mention Kelly Pavlik is because of Jack Lowe who opened a AM gym in youngstown ,Jack Lowe is a great guy who run that AM gym of his own back with more or less no help,if that AM gym was not in Youngstown thanks to Jack Lowe,Kelly Pavlik would not be were he is now

Were the AM gyms are, you find the talent,that is ABC pure logic and Truth

I agree with your point about marketing being important,but the US can have all the marketing in the world and they wont beat Cuba at AM boxing untill the US sets up an AM system like the USA had in the 1970s,how many Gold medals did the US win in the Olympic boxing in the 70s Olympics ?
(that wont happen again untill US AM gyms stop closing )

I dont think the success of Cuba AM boxing is built on "marketing"
(infact i know it isnt)

btw

dennis i am not worried by the drop of US white boxers from the 70s,i am just giving you the reason and that is all

classboxer · Post by **classboxer** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:26

ctill wrote: Yes China has opened alot of amatuer gyms across the contry with help from several U.S citizens like Evander Holyfield. Remember China and Cuba are allies Castros brother is also helping them by sending some of Cubas best trainers there to help. So probably from 2008-2012 we will start to see more Chinese world class boxers.

Agreed ctill

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 05 Jan 2008, 22:33

Yeah of course there is a drop of US black boxers,check out the HW division,get the picture Boxmel ?

No, I don't get the picture. You are looking at a small portion of boxers and singling out just the HWs. Can't convince me that way.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 07 Jan 2008, 13:15

Class, I think it's hard to compare Cuba's recuiting method to the USA"s. Cuba's government recruites at the elementary school level and test kids on things like balance, hand eye coordination, speed ect. If they are top performers, the government will send them to highly structured programs to advance in one of the sports they consider important, boxing, soccer, power lifting, baseball ect. I do not know how much preasure, if any is put on parents to agree to comply. A very high priority is put on the importance of performance in these sports by the goverment, I would call this the highest form of marketing. I would love to be able to recuite kids right out of schools, and it is happening is some places, but not like Cuba does it. Also, I have never heard of a US boxer defecting when they went out of country.