The Pep-Saddler four-fight series

[elmersalsa]

In your opinion, what do you guys think of this series? Some say that it was inconclusive that those fights were so foul plagued that niether of the two deserved to be better than the other.

In the other hand, was Saddler better than Pep or Pep was better than Saddler? Did "styles" make these "fights"

Or do you think that the only clean fight between the two, Pep won by UD, and the others, well, they were too rough and rugged and so many ilegal tactics according to boxing historians that they do not give Saddler credit.

What are your take on this?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think it's dubious at best for anyone to discount three victories by one man over the same fighter, except in the most extreme cases.

Saddler fought his whole career that way. If someone is going to discard Saddler's wins against Pep on the basis that the fights were foul-tainted, then they have to acknowledge Saddler was nothing special, since he won all his fights using a healthy dose of fouls. Saddler dominated the series, fair play to him. & those victories count for something.

Having said that, Pep was seriously depleted following a plane crash that should have kept him from walking, much less fighting. & Pep was a fighter more dependent on his legs than most. After the crash, there were winning fights where Pep showed he had problems. It still took a great Featherweight like Saddler to take full advantage, evn though he still didn't win all their fights.

They are good, even great, wins for Saddler. But they were not against the best iteration of his opponent. I have little doubt the peak Pep would have won three of four fights with Saddler.

[Seamus]

I was just thinking about this very topic, and I will say without doubt that the claims that Saddler just had Pep's number are without any sound basis. Pep was still an excellent fighter, but past his best, when he lost 3 out of 4 bouts to Saddler. The real story though is that Pep won a clear UD in one bout and was ahead on all cards in the 3rd and 4th when they ended. Willie Pep once called Saddler the dirtiest fighter he'd ever seen, and considering the tactics Saddler used to beat Pep, it probably isn't an inaccurate statement.

Prime Pep vs a prime Saddler with a referee who does his job would result in a clear UD for Pep every time.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree that the series can not be used to assess their relative individual skills or determine a prime vs prime likely winner.

[Ezzard]

I agree that the series can not be used to assess their relative individual skills or determine a prime vs prime likely winner.

I agree with Buzz with respect to both fighters.

Saddler was a force of nature who is one of the greatest FWs no metter if Pep had a plane crash or not.

[harrygreb]

i think, like history, you are being slightly too hard on saddler. willie would have had trouble with him whatever condition he was in. pep was a boxing genius and fair play to his awesome abilities in beating saddler when he did. but i like sandy and i think he's not given the credit he deserves

[dagosd2000]

If you look at Pep's record just before the plane crash,he had stopped 9 out of 10 opponents. He was also becoming a puncher,and then the plane crash. I once heard Pep say that when he first saw Saddler he thought(by looking at his frame)he was a weak guy. Sandy Saddler was like Monzon:tall and lanky for his weight category,yet very strong. A lot of the "experts" say Pep was not the same fighter after the crash. Pep had 240 fights. Most of those bouts were after the plane crash. Then there's always the talk about Saddler having the style to beat Pep. In the film of Saddler's wins you can see Willie startng to wilt under the pressure. Would Pep had the legs to move away from Saddler in 1946?(prior to the crash)

This has always been a tough one for me to decide:who was the better fighter? I'm Italian. As a boy I lived in the middle of the Italian neighborhood in Chicago. All I heard was how Pep beat Saddler. I never knew Willie lost to him three times until I was a teenager! Many old timers who were around in those days say not only was Pep the better fighter,but the best fighter of all time.

For you posters that say that Saddler doesn't get enough praise,look at the photo of the inductees at the first Boxing Hall Of Fame. Pep and Saddler were inducted. Pep is sitting with his"Goombas",LaMotta and Basilio.They're smiling,looking happy. Saddler is sitting on the edge of the row. He seems by himself. He's got the dark glasses on because he's practically blind. I wish Willie would have asked Sandy to sit next to him for the picture.

[Seamus]

You lived in THE Italian neighborhood in Chicago ? There were only about 8 !

[dagosd2000]

You lived in THE Italian neighborhood in Chicago ? There were only about 8 !

Polk and Oakley Blvd. My grandfather's house was sold by my grandmother to Univ. Ill. at Chicago

[Seamus]

That's right where Diamond Joe Esposito got it in 1928. In front of 806 S Oakley. Years later I believe Vito Marzullo lived on the 1100 block of Oakley, before that he was on the 600 block of Leavitt.

[dagosd2000]

That's right where Diamond Joe Esposito got it in 1928. In front of 806 S Oakley. Years later I believe Vito Marzullo lived on the 1100 block of Oakley, before that he was on the 600 block of Leavitt.

Hey Irish,Diamond Joe was my grandfather

[Ezzard]

That's right where Diamond Joe Esposito got it in 1928. In front of 806 S Oakley. Years later I believe Vito Marzullo lived on the 1100 block of Oakley, before that he was on the 600 block of Leavitt.

Hey Irish,Diamond Joe was my grandfather

Wow, an amazing part of the city's history. That's very interesting, dagosd.

[Seamus]

Thought I'd bump this one up after watching the highlights of there 4th bout. The best answer I can give is the series was inconclusive, regardless of Saddler winning 3 out of 4. Saddler scored a knockdown by holding and hitting Pep in the corner, but otherwise was clearly outboxed. It's a shame this bout got out of hand early, because Pep looked like he had a good chance to tie the series at 2 wins a piece.