Was Ali REALLY KO'd by Ellis in sparring prior 2 Shavers ?

joe kurtz · Post by **joe kurtz** » 06 Jan 2008, 01:20

I still have the AP article clipped from the Buffalo Evening News just days before his bout with Shavers in MSG back in '77. In detailed how while sparring with Jimmy Ellis in preparation for Shavers that Ellis dropped him twice, after which Angie Dundee called a halt to the session & that when questioned about it, Ali couldn't recall either knockdown.

It was a pretty straight forward piece that didn't seem like any sort of a hyperbole or propaganda piece meant to push the fight. But, in the years since, I haven't read or heard anything more about it.

So, does anyone out there have more detailed info regarding this?
If so, please, fill me in.

Thanks & peace.

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 06 Jan 2008, 03:44

I'm not sure about what actually happened, but Ring Magazine (I think it was) carried a picture of Ali on the floor and Ellis standing over/next to him.

-KOKid-

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 06 Jan 2008, 06:08

That'd be a pretty interesting session to have on film.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 06 Jan 2008, 15:51

Kinda reminds me of when Ali sparred with Tony Doyle before his fight with Joe Bugner, and Doyle stunned Ali with three wicked right hooks after Ali made the crack that sparring partners were the lowest forms of life. At the time the media were baffled, being that Bugner had knocked Doyle out rather easily, yet Doyle caught Ali off guard and stunned him.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 06 Jan 2008, 18:08

just proves that sparing is just sparing. And the best boxers prove themselves come fight time. Ali used to show out in sparing quite often, makes a few headlines for the morning papers.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 06 Jan 2008, 23:46

Ali wasn't Mike Tyson in sparring, he wasn't looking to bust heads. It was simply an exercise, not a form of competition, and Ali allowed most of his sparring partners to beat up on him (also something that I'm sure did little to benefit him health wise.) Plus they must have sparred hundreds of times, so you'd figure it'd be bound to happen at least once.

Either way, we know the result of their actual fight.

Plus it was in '77 you say, and Ali was a shell of his former self by then, its quite amazing how he was able to survive so many punches from Shavers.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Jan 2008, 01:43

Many point out the Foreman fight as being the fight that proved just how tough Ali was, and while it's a top five candidate, I'd have to say the Shavers fight holds the number one spot.

It was the ONLY time I have ever seen Muhammad Ali ever knocked goofy from a single punch, and was the ONLY time I ever seen Ali get rubbery legs from a single blow. That second round was the beginning of the end, and had Shavers had the foresight to have known that Ali was actually hurt, rather than being the clowner he usually was whenever he was tagged hard...Earnie Shavers not only would have been the Heavyweight champion of the world, but the only man to have knocked Muhammad Ali out cold.

It's also one of those fights where I think a coin could have been tossed and a decision could have gone either way. Ali won two out of three cards that night, but in my book, Earnie probably should have gotten it. Sometimes, I think, fighters should be awarded 10-8 rounds when they have someone hurting like that, whether a knock down was there or not.

The greatest quote about that fight was when Stallone recalled a conversation Ali and him were having and Muhammad said this: "I was talking to the angels that night in between rounds."

It's also been quoted that Ali said "I seen the black lights, the black lights of unconsciousness."

The perfect time for Ali to have gotten out was after the Thrilla in Manila, but he didn't. What we see now, is the price you have to be willing to pay, when you pursue the goal of being the greatest fighter there ever was. A prisoner of his own body.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 07 Jan 2008, 02:01

The price to pay to entertain us fans. And to satisfy that elusive legacy, which he sadly would have had any how even if he retired after Thrilla.

I have read and seen on many occasions Ali taking sparring 'easy' in the sense that he never seemed to spar to dominate or to win. But instead to work on aspects of his game, get his stamina and get used to those blows.

It is an interesting contrast to see how different champs sparred.

I wish more footage was available of alot of guys.

Kym

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Jan 2008, 02:15

I would love to see Liston & Foreman sparring. I've never come across the footage, if it exists.

Foreman said Liston's jab made you sick & sorry.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 07 Jan 2008, 03:42

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Jan 2008, 04:37

now that pic is a piece of history!

on a side note, ironically, Chuck Wepner would always say that even though he was passed his best, Sonny Liston was the hardest punching man he ever faced...funny considering Wepner would later face Foreman and suffer a broken orbital socket.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 07 Jan 2008, 05:37

just curious... i know this is gonna make me sound like an idiot but did they train together for a while?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Jan 2008, 05:46

p4p1 wrote:just curious... i know this is gonna make me sound like an idiot but did they train together for a while?

They most certainly did. Foreman turned pro just a year before Liston's retirement, & at that time they shared a manager in Dick Saddler. Liston used Foreman for a sparring partner for quite a while. A great line shared between them, as recounted by Doc Broadus...

Sonny Liston: "God damn it man, will you stop smacking that gum in my ear!?"

George Foreman: "If you seen the way I whupped that German, you wouldn't talk to me like that."

Foreman is actually referring to the Russian he beat in the Olympic final of 1968. Apparently Sonny didn't take too kindly to being sassed &, as George tells it, would batter him a bit during sparring. But by & large the rub is they were, if not friends, then at least something resembling that.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Jan 2008, 05:47

Tantum wrote:[img]http://img182. .us/img182/9858/mvc461fro3.jpg[/img]

Nice work Tantum. You've got a nice one there. Looks like Sonny is about to pop George (who appears to be crip-walking or break-dancing or some such, & looks remarkably Will Smith-esque?) with the jab & George doesn't see it coming.

I think I found a new screen wallpaper

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 07 Jan 2008, 07:21

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Tantum wrote:[img]http://img182. .us/img182/9858/mvc461fro3.jpg[/img]
Nice work Tantum. You've got a nice one there. Looks like Sonny is about to pop George (who appears to be crip-walking or break-dancing or some such, & looks remarkably Will Smith-esque?) with the jab & George doesn't see it coming.

I think I found a new screen wallpaper

They're only shadowboxing.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Jan 2008, 08:03

I've seen that photo a lot and my first impression is always that it looks like a fake.

Anyone else think their bodies don't look right next to one another?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jan 2008, 10:48

Ezzard wrote:I've seen that photo a lot and my first impression is always that it looks like a fake.

Anyone else think their bodies don't look right next to one another?

It precedes good fake technology...that's been around a long time.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Jan 2008, 11:01

This is certainly a fake and not even that good of one. At first glance it seems something isn't right. Then taking a harder look it seems one of them (probably Foreman) was cropped in.

There are other clues:
-It appears that Liston is looking above Foreman, getting ready to throw a jab, which doesn't make sense.
-It looks like Foreman just threw a punch, yet he isn't close enough to Liston.
-They aren't wearing gloves and headgear.

Liston probably shadow boxing by himself, and Foreman was cropped in.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 08 Jan 2008, 14:22

sparring does not really mean Much though.... I mean i think a lot of boxers experment a little in sparring, and dont take it serious as the Fight with their actually Opponent their training for

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jan 2008, 15:49

Ambling Alp wrote:This is certainly a fake and not even that good of one. At first glance it seems something isn't right. Then taking a harder look it seems one of them (probably Foreman) was cropped in.

There are other clues:
-It appears that Liston is looking above Foreman, getting ready to throw a jab, which doesn't make sense.
-It looks like Foreman just threw a punch, yet he isn't close enough to Liston.
-They aren't wearing gloves and headgear.

Liston probably shadow boxing by himself, and Foreman was cropped in.

Trying to makes sense of a free lance shadow boxing moment is your problem. There is no "sense" in it. However I am going to put this on the computer and anaylze it.....It does NOT look to be fake though I understand why you might imagine it to be. Foreman's left shoulder LOOKS like sloppy work but that appears to be the natural placement of the back drop and nothing more. More important the FEET of each fighter seem to be genuinely placed.

I understand the first thought that it is fake but this pic has been around for a few decades. I believe I remember it pre internet.

Also one can not be sure about the eye tracking statement that you've made. He may well be looking at Foreman though in this nano second it may be difficult to percieve it. The shutter speed would explain the bit of blur better than "photoshopping".

The rope in front of Foreman's glove/wrapping appears to be correctly covering it's mark without any pixelization that would appear in such a contrasted photoshopped effort.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Jan 2008, 17:45

I dunno, it just doesn't look right. If they are sparring (and they can't be sparring with the intention of landing punches without gloves and headgear), something just seems off. Neither guy seems to be aware that the other guy is there.
Maybe you are on to something about why Liston seems to be looking above Foreman, I don't know.

If Foreman had just thrown a right, he should be closer to Liston. Liston also looks like he is going to throw a jab; you would think with Foreman that wide open he would be going for a left hook.

I suppose another possiblity is that they were both actually there, but not really sparring. They could have been posing for the camera.

I am also beginning to wonder if Liston wasn't added in as well. You can't make out the writing on his T-shirt at all, but you can see the writing on the posters very clearly and they are several feet outside of the ring. Was Liston prone to wearing old T-Shirts with the lettering faded? Inquiring minds want to know.

Anyway, buzz, I'm glad that you are on the case! Let us know if you find out anything.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jan 2008, 18:10

In order to make some sense of it you would have to imagine that both fighters were in the beginning simply warming up and facing the camera for some shots. The happenstance that they are not paying attention to each other would make sense at that point. And all moves would be totaly arbitrary which you clearly point out correctly is the case here. They are certainly not "in play" in terms of reacting to one another. And if they are we can assume they both have been exposed to some sort of mind numbing gas that was permeating the gym at that time. The feet are clearly connected to the canvas and that is another very tricky thing to approximate.

I agree it is a clumsy photo more of a throw away shot if this was in a series of shots....but it clearly does not appear to be photoshopped EXCEPT for the odd pose.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Jan 2008, 18:21

It certainly is an odd pose, but you have to remember one thing with photos --- absolutely anything can happen in the blink of an eye. Things happen that look out of context with an event that is shot & are gone again in a nanosecond, & when people see the photo, say, "I was there, that doesn't look right," or, "I never saw that on the day," things happen in a single instant & the camera is excellent at capturing strange things. Happens all the time.

Try to imagine Foreman is doing something completely unto himself & Liston then flicks a casual jab. That might explain why Foreman looks so out of posture. For all we know, in the next instant Foreman responds & is in a more conventional pose.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Jan 2008, 18:29

After blowing this gem up and condensing it down several times I discover that NO games have been played with pixilization. This is just one odd bird pose and it is what it is. The relativity remains consistent throughout the entire photograph. No obvious flaws. The fact that Listons shirt is difficult to read has to do with it being against the pure white background of his shirt and that either the scanner or the original camera had a bit of a rough time capturing it. The back wall is less challenging due to the more "sepia tones" which are just easier to process especially back then.

It appears it may have been an older photo that was scanned and the scanner was not particulary top quality. Both the photo and the scanner may have been a bit weak from the gitgo. Based on the feet, the handwraps the relativity of size and body outline pixles...this is a bona fide "sport moment".

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 09 Jan 2008, 04:47

You know, outside of borrowing Sonny's sullen persona, I wonder what skills or tactics he learned/borrowed from Liston while being his sparring partner, would have been a neat thing to have seen and witnessed the sparring and training these two legends done with eachother.