The most open division
It's subjective. I know you're stricter than me on this.
I can't see how 2 guys fighting at 163 are Light-Heavys. That's just my opinion. Even at 166 these guys are closer to MW than LHW. If they've simply got bigger and bigger then that's different, but when they can drop back down again...
If Tunney weighed 175 when he beat Dempsey then it would count, at least in the way I rate the fighters.
What Robinson did at 147 has no bearing on his ranking at 160, but what he does at 160 can shed light on him as a fighter at 147. I know you don't see it that way. And there isn't a hard and fast correlation.
The more I try and find a hard and fast rule the more problems I find with it.
I can't see how 2 guys fighting at 163 are Light-Heavys. That's just my opinion. Even at 166 these guys are closer to MW than LHW. If they've simply got bigger and bigger then that's different, but when they can drop back down again...
If Tunney weighed 175 when he beat Dempsey then it would count, at least in the way I rate the fighters.
What Robinson did at 147 has no bearing on his ranking at 160, but what he does at 160 can shed light on him as a fighter at 147. I know you don't see it that way. And there isn't a hard and fast correlation.
The more I try and find a hard and fast rule the more problems I find with it.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Yes we do often agree. It's when we don't that we converse a lot!
I noticed that Tunney has to be at 175 (the lightheavyweight limit) when he beat Dempsey at lightheavyweight, but Greb doesn't have to be at 160 (the middleweight) limit for his wins to count at middleweight. Is this fair?
That is another major problem with counting "over the weight" fights. People do it selectively. Usually it favors a favorite of theirs.
I don't consider a fighter over 160 to be a middleweight. Yes it's closer to the middleweight limit than the lightheavyweight limit , but the lightheavyweight division (in Greb's time, their was no super Middleweight division) was anything over 160 to 175.
Therefore a fighter that weighed 163 was a lightheavyweight, albiet a small one.
I agree that when you follow the rule that I do to the extreme that it can seem a little silly. Often in non title fights, both fighters will fight at slightly higher than the weight limit and it seems natural to count it. ie- 2 "middleweights" fight at 161, do you count the fight in the middleweight rankings, even though techincally they were over the limit? Commonsense tells you that the result would probably have been the same if both fighters fought at 160 so the fight should count as a middleweight fight.
Still, having some sort of rule to go by seems better than just hapahazardly counting some "over the limit fights" and not others.
Actually I have thought of a new guideline to go by and wanted to see what you (or anyone else for that matter) thought about it. -
An "over the limit" win counts when it meets these criteria:
1.The fighter is closer to the limit of the lower weight than he is to the higher weight, going by today's weight classes. In another words, a middleweight could weigh 163, (but not 164).
2. However, his opponent must weigh the same or more than him. You can't weigh say 163 and beat a guy that weighs 160 (or even 162) and count it in favor of someone when you are strictly rating him as a middleweight. However, if the smaller fighter wins, it counts.
I'm not sure that I totally like it completely myself, but it seems like a good compromise.
I noticed that Tunney has to be at 175 (the lightheavyweight limit) when he beat Dempsey at lightheavyweight, but Greb doesn't have to be at 160 (the middleweight) limit for his wins to count at middleweight. Is this fair?
That is another major problem with counting "over the weight" fights. People do it selectively. Usually it favors a favorite of theirs.
I don't consider a fighter over 160 to be a middleweight. Yes it's closer to the middleweight limit than the lightheavyweight limit , but the lightheavyweight division (in Greb's time, their was no super Middleweight division) was anything over 160 to 175.
Therefore a fighter that weighed 163 was a lightheavyweight, albiet a small one.
I agree that when you follow the rule that I do to the extreme that it can seem a little silly. Often in non title fights, both fighters will fight at slightly higher than the weight limit and it seems natural to count it. ie- 2 "middleweights" fight at 161, do you count the fight in the middleweight rankings, even though techincally they were over the limit? Commonsense tells you that the result would probably have been the same if both fighters fought at 160 so the fight should count as a middleweight fight.
Still, having some sort of rule to go by seems better than just hapahazardly counting some "over the limit fights" and not others.
Actually I have thought of a new guideline to go by and wanted to see what you (or anyone else for that matter) thought about it. -
An "over the limit" win counts when it meets these criteria:
1.The fighter is closer to the limit of the lower weight than he is to the higher weight, going by today's weight classes. In another words, a middleweight could weigh 163, (but not 164).
2. However, his opponent must weigh the same or more than him. You can't weigh say 163 and beat a guy that weighs 160 (or even 162) and count it in favor of someone when you are strictly rating him as a middleweight. However, if the smaller fighter wins, it counts.
I'm not sure that I totally like it completely myself, but it seems like a good compromise.
No, If Tunney had been say 175-180 I'd just assume that he was a LHW who knew he didn't have to make the scales. Same for non-title fights. Greb at 164 is a fighter who didn't need to make the scales (apparently, so it's said, he was selective towards the end of his career on which fights he trained throughly for).
I'm no expert on Greb's day but these days most fighters campaign towards a division. They may go up and down on the limit but essentially they are looking to get a shot at a specific title. Once they have a belt they may hop up and down but again that's all done purposely.
Be interesting to see when Greb became ranked as a LHW. My guess is that it was once he started fighting guys who were campaigning at 175.
I'm no expert on Greb's day but these days most fighters campaign towards a division. They may go up and down on the limit but essentially they are looking to get a shot at a specific title. Once they have a belt they may hop up and down but again that's all done purposely.
Be interesting to see when Greb became ranked as a LHW. My guess is that it was once he started fighting guys who were campaigning at 175.