What is a COMPLETE FIGHTER?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 02 Jan 2008, 01:57

What is a complete fighter according to your view?

Here is a list in my view, of complete fighters:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Mike McCallum
Ezzard Charles
Marvin Hagler
Meldrick Taylor
Miguel Lora
Hector "Macho" Camacho
Carlos Ortiz
Wilfredo Gomez
Ruben Olivares
Finito Lopez
Salvador Sanchez
Eusebio Pedroza

any others?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 02 Jan 2008, 02:08

How about Walker Smith?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 02 Jan 2008, 02:31

Goodnight, Irene wrote:How about Walker Smith?

That is one that I am talking about...How about Aaron Pryor? I think he was a complete fighter also.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 02 Jan 2008, 02:40

Actually, complete is a deceptively subjective term, Elmer. I think you should refine it a little more so people know exactly what you're asking.

You could make the case, for example --- that a, "complete" fighter is one able to adapt to all styles --- he can box, slug or swarm at the highest level. There are virtually no fighters who could do all that in equal or near-equal measure. There are lots of other ways to interpret, "complete" in a fighting sense too.

So it depends on your definition of the word.

bigped · Post by **bigped** » 02 Jan 2008, 02:50

floyd mayweather?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 02 Jan 2008, 06:29

bigped wrote:floyd mayweather?

I think that is another one that we can call complete fighter. Fights well inside as well as outside, ring generalship, could take a punch, have a decent punch, fast with hands and feet, strong, great stamina....I think this is one great example as the ones I mentioned on the first post.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 03 Jan 2008, 16:22

i think the complete fighter has perfect confidence in all his abilities.
mayweather demonstrates this asset to the letter. more so than leonard IMO. sanchez did too, early duran, monzon...

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Jan 2008, 17:57

How about Miguel "Happy" Lora, Eder Jofre, Charley Burley, Benny Leonard and Joe Gans???...They were very complete fighters

masterorder19 · Post by **masterorder19** » 07 Jan 2008, 18:37

Marvin Hagler
Alexis Arguello
Carlos Ortiz
Mike Mccallum
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langord
Sonny Liston

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 07 Jan 2008, 20:59

One of the best examples of a current complete FIGHTERS would be
George St Pierre .

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 Jan 2008, 01:06

masterorder19 wrote:Marvin Hagler
Alexis Arguello
Carlos Ortiz
Mike Mccallum
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langord
Sonny Liston

Great list though, but I would take out Arguello and Liston.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 08 Jan 2008, 01:58

To me a theoretically complete fighter is impossible to have, but for the use of the term I'd apply it to fighters who can adapt and change their strategy if their regular style isn't working as well as they want.

Floyd Mayweather is an excellent example of this. Against a slow but heavy-handed Baldomir he used his speed to matador Baldomir and dodge nearly every punch he threw while never allowing him to set his feet properly, as PBF potshotted away. Against Judah he saw a quicker fighter than himself and was forced to bring his guard up from where he normally leaves it, and also change the angles at which he throws punches. Against De La Hoya he was fighting an extremely dangerous left hooker so he basically moved in angles and kept his right hand very high in order to neutralize DLH's biggest weapon and the main part of his offense. Against Hatton he was being mugged and crowded and so he was forced to fight in a completely different way, using handspeed and more subtle in-close manuevers a lot more in order to finally get range and land lead rights and combinations.

Aaron Pryor's performance against Arguello was a great example too, he was largely just charging through his opponents with his wild buzzsaw style and power but against Arguello he was eating tons of flush counters which led him to start boxing on his toes more until he finally landed enough cumulatively to hurt and stop Arguello as he returned to planting his feet and firing power shots to finish him.

Prime Duran was also multi-talented, but more often than not his sheer power and aggression overshadowed his other traits because most of his opponents couldn't do anything against his style.

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 08 Jan 2008, 10:38

LOra was not a complete fighter.

he was a slick counterpunching stylist and purely finesse fighter.

When it came time to change styles against the huge Jibaro Perez who could not be outboxed in the manner Lora usuallt fought because of his physical advantages, Lora was found wanting and failed to change his style at all.

masterorder19 · Post by **masterorder19** » 08 Jan 2008, 13:08

elmersalsa wrote:
masterorder19 wrote:Marvin Hagler
Alexis Arguello
Carlos Ortiz
Mike Mccallum
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langord
Sonny Liston
Great list though, but I would take out Arguello and Liston.

Ok fine liston yeah im just a big fan while he was still a great technician..But why Arguello??? he was a complete fighter

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 08 Jan 2008, 13:40

What about Carlos Monzon and Joe Louis?

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 08 Jan 2008, 14:19

Mayweather...

If you add Liston, i would say Ali too.... His Ability Mentally aswell as physically was uncanny to his opponenets

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Jan 2008, 10:51

Crease wrote:What about Carlos Monzon and Joe Louis?

not good footwork, I guess. Louis did not had the best of chins either.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Jan 2008, 10:53

masterorder19 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
masterorder19 wrote:Marvin Hagler
Alexis Arguello
Carlos Ortiz
Mike Mccallum
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langord
Sonny Liston
Great list though, but I would take out Arguello and Liston.
Ok fine liston yeah im just a big fan while he was still a great technician..But why Arguello??? he was a complete fighter

I would say that Arguello was an almost complete fighter. He lacked speed in hand and foot and had too much trouble against runners. He was more of a tactician, he carried the fight to you and when you though you had him, BOOM!, He will give you that left hook out of nowwhere. Great fighter, but not a complete one, I guess.

nobudius · Post by **nobudius** » 10 Jan 2008, 15:47

elmersalsa wrote:
I would say that Arguello was an almost complete fighter. He lacked speed in hand and foot and had too much trouble against runners. He was more of a tactician, he carried the fight to you and when you though you had him, BOOM!, He will give you that left hook out of nowwhere. Great fighter, but not a complete one, I guess.

If Arguello had hand/foot speed, he would be practically impossible to beat. Speed troubled him somewhat, but that goes for anybody that has more speed than you.

Looking at this thread, the first fighter I thought of was Gomez. He was more "complete" than Salvador Sanchez IMHO-who got hit quite often, & went on cruise control for certain periods during the course of a fight.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 11 Jan 2008, 13:05

elmersalsa wrote:I would say that Arguello was an almost complete fighter. He lacked speed in hand and foot and had too much trouble against runners. He was more of a tactician, he carried the fight to you and when you though you had him, BOOM!, He will give you that left hook out of nowwhere. Great fighter, but not a complete one, I guess.

Yeah, but you said "complete", not "GOAT in every aspect of his ring craft and physical ability." Also, you don't get "left hooks out of nowhere" without decent hand speed - sure, perfect timing and anticipation help, but ya also gotta be able to close the deal and deliver the leather.

The thing that always impressed me about Arguello, he looked *so* relaxed and cool in there, even when things got rough. I swear, I bet if you'd been able to measure his heart rate during the fight, it would probably drop during the round, while he was doing what he felt most comfortable doing.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Jan 2008, 13:12

Dont you ever confuse foot work with speed!!! Louis had foot work, he just lacked the speed in his legs, but that man wasn't a robot or a plodder either. Joe Louis, outside of having a soft chin for a Heavyweight, was practically a complete fighter. He could brawl when the situation called for it, and he could box quite well. His defense was solid, and his offense...25 title defenses

need I say more?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Jan 2008, 13:39

I agree that too much emphasis is placed on speed when footwork is discussed. There is more to the subject.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 11 Jan 2008, 18:44

arguello didnt look so cool and relaxed during being absolutely outfought by prior. his face was a picture of desperate confusion.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 12 Jan 2008, 07:50

I have just started watching a heap of Haglers fights oustide of the usual
ones available (Leonard, Hearns) and I must say he is one damned talented man, even very early on.

I would definetly nominate him as a complete fighter.

Kym

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 12 Jan 2008, 07:53

Evander Holyfield.

He was a jack of all trades.