Jeannette-Carpentier, Who was better?

[donnellon]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

[dempseyfire]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

Jeannette get a gift over Carpentier in Paris?? That'd be the day.

The reports I've seen all said it was fair. I'd trust them over George's own musings.

[BoxBuzz]

Jeanette may be the most under rated of all time. But there is not enough empircal evidence left to secure a good re-evaluation. Or at least that is the way it seems.

[dagosd2000]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

Jeannette get a gift over Carpentier in Paris?? That'd be the day.

The reports I've seen all said it was fair. I'd trust them over George's own musings.

I've got to go with Dempsey on this one. The only other time "The Orchid Man" lost in Paris to a non Frenchman was to Siki for the title and the ref tried to claim Siki fouled. The verdict was reversed at ringside. Remember Siki and Jeanette were black and their race wasn't going to work for them in France in 1914. Joe must have beat him by a wide margin.

Interesting side note. When the American Expeditioary Force went to France in 1917,General Pershing told the French that he wanted to drill the American troops for a year before they went into combat because they weren't ready yet.Yet they had spent almost a year in Mexico in 1916 hunting for Pancho Villa. Well the French had been fighting for 4 years and wanted support from the Americans. So Pershing gave the French our African American soldiers . Those soldiers were the first American soldiers to fight in WW I. The French appreciated that at the time.

[donnellon]

We are still guessing, I'd love to read a contempory European account of the fight. Black fighters got a fair eneough deal in general in Europe and the American fight report states that Joe had a slight edge in weight when in fact the pull would have been circa 30 pounds.

[Ambling Alp]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

This is interesting. Hopefully something can be found out about this fight.
I don't have any information about Jeannette-Carpentier, but until hearing otherwise from a credible source, a decision should be considered just. It's human nature (even for a honest person) for a fighter to think that he should have won a decison if it was remotely close.

Btw- In the Carpentier-Gunboat Smith fight, Smith claimed he was robbed and that he shouldn't have been disqualified.

[dempseyfire]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

This is interesting. Hopefully something can be found out about this fight.
I don't have any information about Jeannette-Carpentier, but until hearing otherwise from a credible source, a decision should be considered just. It's human nature (even for a honest person) for a fighter to think that he should have won a decison if it was remotely close.

Btw- In the Carpentier-Gunboat Smith fight, Smith claimed he was robbed and that he shouldn't have been disqualified.

The New York Times fight report is available online. The headline is Jeannette "whips" Carpentier and that even in George's best rounds (early on) Jeannette still had the edge.

[donnellon]

That's the same report that had Joe a "triffle" heavier even though he probably was 30-35 pounds heavier. I'll try and get hold of a British report.

[pound per pound]

If Jeanette had some power in him, he should have finished Carpeinter.

[dempseyfire]

If Jeanette had some power in him, he should have finished Carpeinter.

Carpentier was stopped 9 times in 109 fights and 4 of those stoppages were when he was in his mid teens.

[pound per pound]

If Jeanette had some power in him, he should have finished Carpeinter.

Carpentier was stopped 9 times in 109 fights and 4 of those stoppages were when he was in his mid teens.

Then Jeanette did not hit as hards as Dempsey or Siki. Or perhaps Jeanette didn't press the action.

[donnellon]

I have recently read the British "Boxing" report of the fight and also "The Mirror and Sporting Life" compliments of Clay Moyle and Miles Templeton and there is little doubt that Carp won a tough, close and competive contest.

[Bladder]

Is the film of the Jeanette-Carpentier fight available?

[donnellon]

nope

[Bladder]

That's a shame. In the weeks following the bout, "Boxing" carried adverts for it being shown at theatres around London.

[Cap]

I tend to think Jeannette deserved the decision, but Carpentier was a talented fighter himself, and on a given day might have done enough to win a decision. Too bad we don't have judges' cards preserved to go by, though I'm assuming the ref was the sole arbiter. Blacks or "coloured men" as they were referred to, were a hot commodity in Paris in those days. Sam McVea was a huge star back then.

I have a hard time imagining Carpentier, even at his best, going 49 rounds with Sam McVea and winning.

Because film of these fights are unavailable, there is a kind of fog obscuring events in the ring from those days in our time.

Cap

[Cap]

Joe Jeannette is considered one of the top HW's of the 1910-20's, maybe top 25-50 all-time. He got a decision over Georges Carpentier in Europe when both were at or near their best. I allways read that the decision was a just one until now. In his auto-biography(available on line, thanks to Don Koss-IBRO for the tip) Carpentier was convinced that he was robbed. In his book he comes across as a very fair-minded individual and I was wondering does anyone out there have information on this fight or indeed views.
IF Carpentier did indeed best Jeannette (and also Gunboat Smith) then our rankings of the 1910-20's need serious re-evaluation

Where can you find this book?

Cap

[dempseyfire]

Is the film of the Jeanette-Carpentier fight available?

From my understanding there isn't any film of Jeannette at all except him 'sparring' Johnson when he's 70 years old.

[donnellon]

The link for the book is http://books.google.com/books?id=svBCAA ... frontcover Enjoy.

[El Intocable]

The London Times' special correspondent said that "doubtless some will hold that Carpentier was entitled to a draw: but that was hardly the case."

Except in the 12th, 13th, and 14th rounds, when he was plainly weary, Carpentier generally was carrying the battle to the bigger man, who invariably took the centre of the ring and awaited the gallant onslaughts of the dashing young Gaul. Thus Carpentier fought himself almost to a standstill, meanwhile giving an attractive display, although many of his blows landed with little force, because they were gauged so cleverly by Jeannette, who got in a clear majority of the solid fighting that counts, and did not try to be spectacular. As a result he won, while Carpentier was getting to be a sorry sight at the finish. There was hardly anything to indicate that Jeannette had been in a 15-round glove-fight.

[Cap]

The link for the book is http://books.google.com/books?id=svBCAA ... frontcover Enjoy.

Sorry. How do you actually read this book online. It doesn't seem available. I just get brief snippets of two or three lines.

Cap

[donnellon]

Cap
1) go to the link
2) Select "My fighting life" from OTHER EDITIONS (bottom of page)
3) Select Internet Archive: Details: My fighting life from References from web pages
4) Then in [/b]View this Book select your format, (for me PDF)- it works for me-just did it. Let me know.

[Cap]

Thanks. Worked great. Very interesting read. A real little window on the past. Carpentier's views of the races was similiar to a lot of folks in those days, and I think he may have just refused to believe he could lose to Jeannette. Impossible to say for certain without film.

Great bit about his fight with Gunboat Smith. The chop to the back of the neck was perfectly legal back then and often used. Too bad there wasn't a rematch.

Cap

[donnellon]

The following is compliments of Clay Moyle;
March 28, 1914 – The Mirror of Life And Boxing World.
Joe Jeannette Beats Carpentier.
Georges Unlucky to Lose Decision. Jeannette Knocked Down in First Round. A Record House.
“Frantz Reichel gave Joe Jeannette the decision after the hard fifteen rounds contest that put the coloured heavyweight and the famous French champion, Georges Carpentier, together at Luna Park last Saturday evening. It was a severe tussle from start to finish, Carpentier doing enough in my estimation to deserve the verdict. Some were of opinion that the French champion had obtained a good victory, but this may be somewhat exaggerated.
At the opening of hostilities we had the impression that Jeannette was in for a decisive defeat, Carpenteir, near the end of the initial round getting home a formidable left and right to jaw that sent Jeannette to the boards. The coloured man rose at once, but the fact was significant and gave Carpentier partisans great hopes. Georges, however, never scored a second knock down, although he came near doing so in the eighth round, time finding Joe weak and groggy.
My opinion is that Carpentier would have done far better than he did had he contented himself with boxing his opponent. Quicker than Jeannette and cleverer, Georges at long range proved himself the better man, and I cannot understand why he did not go after a points victory instead of trying to win by a knockout.
Perhaps Jeannette’s going-down in the first round caused Carpentier to change his plan of campaign, but even then he had time to find out his mistake and change tactics.
Jeannette, with the respectable pull in weight he possessed, was the strongest man and at close quarters especially. Yet Carpentier never attempted to avoid in-fighting. On the contrary, he seemed to encourage it amining many a time at Jeannette’s stomach at close quarters, to be beaten off time and again by the coloured boxer’s heavy rib blows and vicious uppercuts.
Perseverance, we are told, is always recompensed, and it was the case in Saturday’s contest. In the eighth ro9und, unheeding Jeannette’s counters, Georges pleased himself at close quarters, his head against Joe’s breast, and pummeled away at Jeannette’s stomach as he had pummeled away at Bombardier Well’s anatomy last December. At times he raised himself to lash out vicious and effective lefts and rights to jaw, returning at once downstairs to continue his dangerous work. This lasted fully two minutes and a half of the three minute round, and under the severe treatment Jeannette weakened considerable, ran groggy and could hardly stand on his legs when the gong ended the session.
This piece of infighting work on Carpentier’s part was grand, really grand, but he suffered greatly before and after in his attempts to pull it off.
From round eight to the end of round eleven Carpentier assumed the mastery, Jeannette being still weak from the punishment received. In the twelfth round Jeannette woke up. Carpentier again attempted infighting, but if he was highly successful in round eight his efforts were a drastic failure. Still he persisted, receiving, during the last minute of that session, stiff punishment from Joe’s uppercuts. The gong found the French champion weak, and his features severely marked. The last three rounds were furiously contested, and much to everyone’s surprise Franz Reichel named Joe Jeannette the winner.
At two o’clock in the afternoon Carpentier weighed 76 kilos and Jeannette 83 kilos.
The largest house ever recorded for a boxing contest in France witnessed the contest.”

I have a better and longer report from "Boxing" London with Photos and round by round analysis which basically says Carp was robbed, but its too big to post.

[El Intocable]

At the opening of hostilities we had the impression that Jeannette was in for a decisive defeat, Carpenteir, near the end of the initial round getting home a formidable left and right to jaw that sent Jeannette to the boards. The coloured man rose at once, but the fact was significant and gave Carpentier partisans great hopes. Georges, however, never scored a second knock down, although he came near doing so in the eighth round, time finding Joe weak and groggy.

Amazing stuff. According to The Times, “each slipped to the floor, Jeannette in the first round and Carpentier in the 10th, and each was helped to his feet by the other.” Why would Georges help Jeannette to his feet if this was a knockdown??

Moreover, they describe the first round very differently; according to them, Jeannette had a huge advantage. Were they watching the same fight?

Jeannette showed fight in the first round the moment the had shaken hands. Without fiddling or sparring he stepped in quickly, feinted, and hit Carpentier hard with a straight left and a right hook, both to the jaw. Backing into a neutral corner, Carpentier received another hard left in his face and a hard right jolt just below his heart. The latter is Jeannette’s favourite blow to steady his man.

By good footwork the French boxer escaped from the corner, but he was shaken again by two stiff blows to the body, and for a few seconds it looked as if he might not last through the first round. He rallied in time to land one-two-three on Jeannette’s jowl, but the big man has been used to heavier blows, and the lead he scored in the first round he never lost; in fact, he added to it.

According to the Washington Post and the New York Times (same article), “Jeannette had the advantage at the start of the contest and in the early rounds,” meaning that he won the 1st. We’ll never know what really took place there, I guess.