Getting into amateur boxing?

[boxmel]

Mel, I have been to the last 2 NGG and those things didn't happen.

You were in the official's meetings? I'm sorry. I'll never like the Golden Gloves - either do most of the officials I know.

You might be surprised that AIBA is considering some rule changes that take into account some of the complaints the GG had with the current rules

.

What complaints have GG had, besides they don't like the computer scoring and refuse to use it?

It might be AIBA who does away with the headgear and/or jersey. Things sometimes have to change to improve the sport.

I wasn't aware that GG dictated the changes that AIBA is now considering. And I will always believe that getting rid of the headgear is a grave mistake.

Don't dig your feet in and be adverse to change.

Dennis - I don't like Golden Gloves and that isn't going to change. The world is not going to come to an end because I feel this way about a group member.

[squarering]

Weather they like it or not The GG and USAB are tied together. Although they are different, they have the power to work together to help this sport. If they can't do that why should we expect anyone else to work with us. Somewhere along the way, intelligent people will have come up with compromises and solutions that meet the needs of everyone. GG, PAL or USAB it's all amateur boxing. THe more they fragment, the weaker we get. In the words of late great Rodney King shortly after the cops beat the hell out of him " why can't we all just get along"

[Kolya]

Weather they like it or not The GG and USAB are tied together. Although they are different, they have the power to work together to help this sport. If they can't do that why should we expect anyone else to work with us. Somewhere along the way, intelligent people will have come up with compromises and solutions that meet the needs of everyone. GG, PAL or USAB it's all amateur boxing. THe more they fragment, the weaker we get. In the words of late great Rodney King shortly after the cops beat the hell out of him " why can't we all just get along"

No kidding. The US has to be the only place where various groups within amateur boxing actively feud with each other; and then wonder why we haven't put out teams to compete with the Cubans or Soviet republics lately.

[squarering]

I believe that there can be very little animosity between people or oganizations when they are SINCERELY working to better the whole. You see it in the corporate world on a daily basis. People with different ideas for how something should be done, argue then discuss, then a final decision to go in one direction, at that point then everyone knows it is now their job to get on board and leave the ego's behind. That is the key to how they succeed in a completive world. Various ideas that make everyone think about how that idea will play out, discussion, then unity.

[boxmel]

THe more they fragment, the weaker we get.

In my opinion, and after many years of observation, it is the GG group who fragments - not USAB. GG has consistently broken rules that, by signing their yearly Group Membership Agreement, they must abide by. And USAB (as represented by the new BOD) is not feuding with GG, but still the rules constantly get broken at the local and national tournaments.

No kidding. The US has to be the only place where various groups within amateur boxing actively feud with each other; and then wonder why we haven't put out teams to compete with the Cubans or Soviet republics lately.

Kolya, this has to do with lack of money and problems with the countries involved (visas, etc,), not because of differences between USAB and group members. There have been several times in the past where Cuba has been invited to attend events in the U.S. and they have pulled out. Romania was supposed to have come this month, and that was postponed by Romania. And, actually, England and Australia have had various groups feuding where it has actually impacted the sport. This is not the case in the U.S.

And, since no one commented on my previous statement - do you think not using the computer and going back to a 20, or 10, point must system is in the best interest of the boxers? Silver Gloves is having a "10-point must system" during the tournament - does that make sense? Is there also a pro judging clinic at the same time as the tournament?

[squarering]

Since I am not an official I have never work a bout using the electronic system although I have played with it at a coaching clininc. This may sound strange and simplistic, but I hear everyone talk about electronisc scoring vs paper, 10point vs 20 point and then trying to come up with a completetly new system. Although one system may work better than an other in theory, it still boils down to the people. Are they trained properly? are they completly unbias? Are their eyes quick enought to see the scoring? Are they quick enough to see it and register it? If a Rashied Warren goes in with a 7 punch flurrie and 4 connect clean, can electronic scoring register that and if it can, can the judges register that. If electronic scoreing works on the one second window, is a fast hannded guy that throws flurries working at a disadvantage. You thougts Mel? I'm not saying I am for or against any system, I just believe that when honest, unbias, knowlegable people do thier best to score a bout. the winner will win 99% of the time.

[Dennis]

Since I am not an official I have never work a bout using the electronic system although I have played with it at a coaching clininc. This may sound strange and simplistic, but I hear everyone talk about electronisc scoring vs paper, 10point vs 20 point and then trying to come up with a completetly new system. Although one system may work better than an other in theory, it still boils down to the people. Are they trained properly? are they completly unbias? Are their eyes quick enought to see the scoring? Are they quick enough to see it and register it? If a Rashied Warren goes in with a 7 punch flurrie and 4 connect clean, can electronic scoring register that and if it can, can the judges register that. If electronic scoreing works on the one second window, is a fast hannded guy that throws flurries working at a disadvantage. You thougts Mel? I'm not saying I am for or against any system, I just believe that when honest, unbias, knowlegable people do thier best to score a bout. the winner will win 99% of the time.

You are correct Hal, except with the computer scoring you would have to add "judges with quick-reflexes who were former video gamers". I am sure I have a better chance of hitting that button 4 or 5 times in a second than a 70+ year old judge. As you know Rau'shee and many others are very capable of throwing 5+ punches in a second and often most if not all will be scoring blows.

[Dennis]

Mel, now you are upset with Silver Gloves. They are not part of the GG and yet they are the one using a 10-point system. I agree with Kolya and Hal that the US amateur system is too fragmented.

[boxmel]

Hal, the computer is probably not fast enough to compute a 7-punch combination but that really doesn't matter. What matters is that three out of five judges see a punch at the same time and push the button so the punch is accepted as a scoring point. I know everyone gets upset when they feel that not all the punches are counted. The computer really isn't a numbers game - it's a system to produce a winner. And it isn't going to change. IOC would never condone going back to manual scoring.

And your questions are universal - USA hopes for the best when it competes in international competitions - are the judges trained, are they unbiased, etc., etc. I guess as long as we're dealing with the human element, there will always be some lack of training, bias, etc. I think that "untrained" and "biased", if any, are the minority in the U.S. We do judges training on the keypads before the U.S. Championships start. But the fail-safe, if you want to call it that, is the three out of five equation - that will pretty much cancel any lack of experience or whatever.

For the boxers, the best method is to stay off the ropes and out of the corners, move in the middle of the ring and make sure the majority of judges see the punches.

I invite any coaches on this forum to attend the judges training sessions that will be given before the start of the Championships this year.

[boxmel]

You are correct Hal, except with the computer scoring you would have to add "judges with quick-reflexes who were former video gamers".

This isn't necessarily true. There are plenty of judges who never played video games who do very well on the computer. Remember, I get to see what each judge does when I'm running the system - and I do pay attention.

I'm not "upset" with Silver Gloves. I just don't understand why the group members won't comply when it directly involves the boxers. We are going to be boxing with computer scoring for many years to come. Why not give our boxers the training they need with that scoring system? Why would we go back to manual scoring when the rest of the world isn't?

The only exceptions to the rules that the group members can make are (1) uniform, (2) Chief of Officials, (3) length and number of rounds, and (4) age and weight categories (Silver Gloves). Other than that, they MUST adhere to USAB's rules.

I agree with Kolya and Hal that the US amateur system is too fragmented.

That's because USA Boxing allows for group members. The only reason there is fragmentation is because several of those group members don't follow the rules.

[babyhuey]

the more i hear about the politics of the sport,
the more i realize i just want to coach the kids in the gym.

[Dennis]

No, there are too many that are concerned with themselves first and foremost and not what is best for the whole. Many of these people could be well served by reading up on Classical Republicanism.

[Dennis]

Civic virtue and the fear of factions. Thomas Jefferson made a good point in Federalist 10 about factions. Most of the Framers of the Constitution feared too much power in a central gov't (which I would say holds true with corporate governance in many cases as well). That is why our country started off with a weak central government under the Articles of Confederation and continued for almost a decade.

[squarering]

I was with you right up untill you went deep on me Dennis. I do something know about Goerge Washington chopping down a cherry tree.

[boxmel]

Yeah, Dennis lost me, too - I remember Washington as never telling a lie?

Huey - you are, unfortunately, going to have to learn the politics of amateur boxing if you are going to coach. You want to give your kids the best advantage possible and you won't do that by not knowing the big picture. I do understand where you're coming from, however. 8)

[squarering]

You right on Mel. Huey, as time goes on you will make all kinds of concessions to give your kids the best shot. Although you may want to make a stand, it is not going to help you kids. If they are giving their all as a boxer, then you must also give your all as a coach and part of that is learning the ropes, so to speak. The best place to start is knowing the rules, Knowing them will save your boxer one day, not knowing them will cost them on another. I can tell you that from personally experiencing both of those situations.

[Dennis]

Sorry I lost you Mel & Hal. I know a little about Constitutional law. For 15 years I have mentored/coached a group of high school kids each year for an Advanced Placement Government class and the annual Constitutional law competition called "We the People".

[miboxref]

Mel, now you are upset with Silver Gloves. They are not part of the GG and yet they are the one using a 10-point system. I agree with Kolya and Hal that the US amateur system is too fragmented.

10-point system? How does this work? Do they count punches or score like a pro fight? Classical Republianism? I have nothing to offer on that one.

[boxmel]

According to Rich Neves, COO at the SG, clickers will be used. However, there is a "10 Point Must System" clinic during the tournament - on Friday. Since hubby will be there, I'll try and find out what it's all about.

[Dennis]

Maybe they are worried about low scores.

[boxmel]

Maybe they are worried about low scores.

Huh?????

[miboxref]

I don't think they need to worry about low scores at a junior tournament. Those young guys throw punches non-stop. Dennis must be thinking of the elite open class boxers.

[Dennis]

Ron - the juniors sometimes throw too many for the old judges to count. So no points are scored. With the 10 point must system, we know somebody will have 10 points in each round.
Really, I was being a little facetious. I do not have a clue why the Silver Gloves wants to use the 10 point must system.