Great Britain v USA

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 30 Nov 2007, 22:30

I'm sure all the judging was fair and unbias, They are not big on the fourth of July over there either.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 30 Nov 2007, 22:58

Home ring advantage?

NYboxing · Post by **NYboxing** » 30 Nov 2007, 23:40

http://www.secondsout.com/UK/news.cfm?ccs=228&cs=23353

Here is another write-up on the event.

mike222 · Post by **mike222** » 02 Dec 2007, 11:59

Dennis--I didnt see much wrong with the scoring and I know the USA stars werent there but you really have to be impressed with the two teenagers Saunders and Maguire-they really stood out as future champions.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 02 Dec 2007, 20:12

Either my boy Shawn Porter fell asleep during his bout, or this Degale is the next Sugar Ray Robinson. Shawn Porter, USA National Golden Gloves Champion, 2006 USA National Champion, Silver Medalist , 2006 USA Championship Silver Medalist 2007 , 1 point per round. That is ridicules. I believe he could score more than that blindfolded with his style. Maybe they put tranquilizers in the potted meat.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 02 Dec 2007, 21:51

I agree Hal. No way Porter only scores 1 point per round.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 03 Dec 2007, 15:14

There were 5 UK judges and one US, who also refereed. I think Wales and Scotland were the "neutrals," but still......

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 03 Dec 2007, 15:39

It sounds far-fetched. I could maybe believe a low score like that if it happened to one boxer, but not to a bunch of our boxers. However, I will withhold judgment until I see the tapes if they are ever made available. I would also like to hear from the boxers and the coaches to see what they thought.

davetko · Post by **davetko** » 03 Dec 2007, 16:45

I can shed some light on this. I train Daniel O'Connor. He told me the scoring was a joke. He was in complete control of his bout, then his best round, which was the last, had ended, and the other kid won. (He was up all rounds on points by the scoring that was distributed during the rest periods) He was pretty pissed at first, but after watching the tape, he just laughed because it was a joke. Dual meets are a great thing, just make the scoring fair and legit.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 03 Dec 2007, 17:36

Duals are still good for the experience. When the boxers meet up later at a neutral site, the outcome will be different. Thanks for the info.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 05 Dec 2007, 23:58

I think that it was interesting that they only showed the bouts on TV that the Brits won. I wonder what the Brit audience thought about those bouts! Surely they are bright enough to see how rotten some of the decisions were. A reliable friend of mine actually saw the tapes, and said that the judging was absolutely absurd in many cases. What a shame they had to treat the athletes that way. And I agree, someone had to have Porter tied to the cornerpost for someone to score on him that much and not catch their quota of WhoopAss.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 06 Dec 2007, 02:21

I'll withhold judgment until I see the bouts.

NYboxing · Post by **NYboxing** » 15 Jan 2008, 23:58

I know this event is a month old, but I just watched the fights:

flyweights: Khalid Yafai (ENG) dec. Qa'id Muhammad (USA)

Yafai had a big lead early, but Muhammad fought hard the last rounds, hurt Yafai with a lot of head-hunting I think in the final round. Computer malfunctioned,think he lost 5-0, but would have been interesting to see the final score because Muhammad was down by double-digits the first half of the fight.

bantamweights: Michael Maguire (ENG) defeats David Clark (USA), (outclassed -second round)

Dominating performance by Maguire.

welterweights: Billy Joe Saunders (ENG) defeats Greg Carter (USA); outclassed

Saunders landed a lot of clean punches, Carter very "green", and "ran into" a lot of punches.

middleweights: James DeGale (ENG) dec. Shawn Porter (USA); 23-4

Porter, just like Green "ran into" a lot of punches. Didn't work behind nothing and was caught with 1-2s rushing in. DeGale southpaw, awkard, taller guy deserved the lopsided win.

light heavyweights: Obed Mbwakongo (ENG) dec. Siju Shabazz (USA), 20-2. Don't remember much except somehow the computer scoring went from 3-2 to 6-2 during an exchange and I didn't any punches land. Another fighter rushing in, not throwing punches coming in, easily countered.

Computer scoring was "okay", techs were a little "faster" pressing scoring blows for English boxers, but from the televised bouts, naturally all wins, points were well earned because of the lack of technique, international experience/style for the five televised fights.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 16 Jan 2008, 01:31

I still doubt that the scores are representative of the actual outcomes. Maybe the UK boxers deserved to win, but I doubt by that wide of margins. I would love to see the bouts.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 16 Jan 2008, 09:50

Computer scoring was "okay", techs were a little "faster" pressing scoring blows for English boxers, but from the televised bouts, naturally all wins, points were well earned because of the lack of technique, international experience/style for the five televised fights.

Umm - the techs are the people who run the scoring system. The judges are the people who press the buttons.

And it's almost impossible to "judge" a televised bout accurately. Remember, there are 5 judges with 5 points of view. You only have one point of view - that shown by the TV cameras (which is not usually what judges see).

NYboxing · Post by **NYboxing** » 16 Jan 2008, 14:03

you know better than I, but at times, I paused, hit rewind, and couldn't find the scoring blows as the scoring counter on the monitor jumped. Porter just wasn't good that night against an tall, awkward boxer, and neither was Clark, who was totally outclassed.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 16 Jan 2008, 14:17

you know better than I, but at times, I paused, hit rewind, and couldn't find the scoring blows as the scoring counter on the monitor jumped

Again - you were only seeing one point of view. The scoring blows you saw might have registered on the judges' raw score - but if three out of the five didn't push the button at the same time, the blows did not show as "accepted."

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 17 Jan 2008, 01:00

Mel, that is part of the problem with scoring blows. A guy can get hit with a blow from the other side so a judge can't see it land, but then the guy gets knocked down from the blow. He gets an 8 count and his mouth is bleeding from the blow and yet the judge is not supposed to count it as a scoring blow.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 17 Jan 2008, 10:25

He gets an 8 count and his mouth is bleeding from the blow and yet the judge is not supposed to count it as a scoring blow.

The criteria for judging is to not push the button, or count a punch, unless you see the blow land. There are many times, when a boxer's back is all I can see - am I supposed to count a blow every time his head movesif I didn't see the blow land? A boxer goes down and gets an 8-count. Do I count the blow if I didn't see it land? In response to your quote, IF the judge sees the boxer knocked down as a result of a legal effective punch, he or she will count it. Uh - in case you didn't know - bleeding mouth is not counted in scoring. 8)

debc · Post by **debc** » 17 Jan 2008, 12:26

NYboxing wrote:you know better than I, but at times, I paused, hit rewind, and couldn't find the scoring blows as the scoring counter on the monitor jumped. Porter just wasn't good that night against an tall, awkward boxer, and neither was Clark, who was totally outclassed.

NYBoxing, I beg to differ with you as you can read on the ABAE Results three out of five judges did not count David's body blows.

NYboxing · Post by **NYboxing** » 17 Jan 2008, 12:33

what are you talking about? Talking abot the David Clark fight? He just got manhandled that night. McGuire had too much for him. I will watch the fight again, but he was totally outclassed, just wasn't his night.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 17 Jan 2008, 12:37

NYBoxing, I beg to differ with you as you can read on the ABAE Results three out of five judges did not count David's body blows

Where are these results? How can you tell that they didn't count the body blows? Unless we can see the bout, Debbie, and see the raw score, there is no way to determine who did what.

BTW - tell David good luck for me tomorrow night. We wanted to come, but Friday night is bad when we both work. We'll be at Barragan's on Saturday, though - hope to see you.

debc · Post by **debc** » 17 Jan 2008, 13:38

thanks mel. I sent you a link. I will tell David.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 17 Jan 2008, 13:49

Thanks, Debbie - got it. Unfortunately, the article does not show the judge's raw score - just the ABAE's interpretation of the bouts (definitely biased).

NYboxing · Post by **NYboxing** » 18 Jan 2008, 00:20

Watched the fight again and naturally my unofficial, television view with the rotating angles from the various cameras versus judges live view from five different spots and I had the bout 13-5 before the fight was stopped on my scrap paper.

The bout was stopped with the score 24-4 with about 30 seconds remaining in the round.

Maybe there was some bias button pushing for the hometown guy, but Michael Maguire is pretty good and is going to be name for 2012 for England if he stays amateur long enough. He won the European Junior Championships in 2007.

I saw the body punching by Clark in the one sequence in the second round, which was pretty good work, that is rarely counts in amateur boxing. Clark caught some good leather picking up and adjust his trunks in the first round, which I think he was down after the first two minutes, 15-3.

One thing I took from this fight, and from most of the fights that were televised on the BBC - and I am no trainer, but one flaw I noticed is that when trying to work/get inside, you have to keep the gloves up, move the head and/or work behind a jab or something when coming in.

I went back watched Clark's fight with Rios from the Nationals, just to get a feel for his style and he is pretty good boxer, he just wasn't the better guy that night in England, but one blow can always change the course of the bout.

Maybe his body work could have taken a toll later in the fight, but you never know thanks to the computer scoring and the "20 point" deficit. I have watched lots amateur boxing throughout the years live and taped, and even though there are guidelines for counting scoring blows, some judges are good, some okay, and some bad hitting the key pad and deciphering what is a scoring blow, what is not . Just hope you have the three good ones watching/pushing the button when you land scoring blows (lol)

I don't want to ruffle nobody's feathers, just keep working hard in the gym, make the adjustments and if you want a copy of the fight, just drop me a PM. You can post on youtube for the rest of the forum to watch or you can use it as a learning experience.