Gomez or Ortiz: Who was the greatest Puerto Rican fighter?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Jan 2008, 01:23

Who was the greatest Puerto Rican fighter of all-time in your view.

Many say the great Wilfredo Gomez...Others say the great Carlos Ortiz

give a detailed information.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 14 Jan 2008, 02:14

This is tougher for me. I give a slight edge to Ortiz. Beat Laguna 2 out of 3. KO'd Sugar Ramos twice. KO'd Flash Elorde twice. Gave Battling Torres his first defeat via knock out. Beat Joe Brown in a fight where Brown didn't look like he wanted to fight to win the crown.

The fight where Zarate moved up in weight to fight Gomez when both boys were undefeated was huge event in the Latino boxing world. That's why Sanchez is considered in Mexico as a legend. He revenged the loss of Zarate to Gomez. Puerto Rican fighter against a Mexican fighter was something special in those days.

Don't let no one fool you. If DeLaHoya would have beaten Trinidad, Mexico would have adopted Oscar. Oscar lost--I guess he's still an American. Then Oscar has the "nerve" to finish off an old Chavez twice. I know a lot of Mexican "aficianados" that wanted Mayweather to beat DeLaHoya.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 14 Jan 2008, 12:21

For me is Carlos Ortiz and Gomez a close second.

barry · Post by **barry** » 14 Jan 2008, 12:36

I pick Gomez, but it’s a close one! Sometimes the phrase, "complete fighter," is mentioned. It is sometimes mentioned with Wilfredo Gomez and the phrase is very much fitting on Gomez as he was a complete fighter in every sense. Gomez could KO an opponent with one shot from either fist, though he typically busted up his opposition.

His technique was pretty much flawless and his style was as smooth and pretty to watch as any fighter ever. In his prime his defensive ability was outstanding! He could make an opponent miss almost at will, but when he did get hit it turned out that he not only had tremendous heart, but Gomez also carried a strong chin, which was tested a lot later on in his career. His ability to rise-to-the-occasion was superb early in his career as he obliterated the undefeated Carlos Zarate as well as a host of other top rated opponents.

His combination punching was outstanding as he worked both the body just as good as he worked the head and when it came to finishing an opponent, Gomez was cold-blooded and did not hesitate to finish a hurt fighter. About the only problem that I seen in Gomez was after he had become very successful he began to really slack in his training and that really hurt him later on, but early in his career and in his prime his conditioning was great. At his best he could adapt to most any situation against any type of boxer as he beat all different styles…KO artists, cuties, pure boxers, sluggers, counter-punchers…he beat all types.

As far as records, well they do not get any better looking than the record of Gomez….44-3-1 (42 KO) including a streak of 32-0-1 (32 KO) at the start of his career, but his record in title fights is what is really special as he was 20-3-1 (18 KO) in world title fights while winning world title belts in three different weight classes, jr. featherweight, featherweight and jr. lightweight. Gomez was an outstanding amateur as well, but he hung around the pro game a little too long and he suffered a couple of rough beatings at the end of his career, especially the bout against Azumah Nelson.

Carlos Ortiz attributes as a fighter will most likely measure up very well to that of Gomez, but overall Gomez had more big fights.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 21 Jan 2008, 00:21

I knew several fighters who fought Gomez.

They all said he was the dirtiest fighter they ever fought.

In his fights in Puerto Rico he would hit low continually, hit on the break, ect etc and the stooge refs would do nothing.

Lightweight champions from much earlier times said Carlos Ortiz would have done well in any era.

There was a complete fighter. He was very adaptable, could fight any style.

His fight with Joe Brown was one of the biggest disappointments ever for a fight that was highly anticipated (the fault was not Ortiz').

What a treat it would have been to see those two in the same ring at their best.

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 02:34

Well I have between 25 and 35 of Gomez's fights on dvd and vhs and I've watched them several times and claims about him being the dirtiest ever who was always fouling really hold no weight.

He certainly fouled in some fights, but in most all cases his opponents fouled him just as much as he fouled them. When there was fouling it wasn't all one way in any sense...Gomez receieved in that department just as well as he gave.

Now very, very few fighters could even hang with Gomez at all as he simply just overwhelmed most opponents with overwhelming skill and tools, which I imagine that in some of those opponents minds that it was due to Gomez fouling that they lost so badly, but in reality it was just due to the fact that Gomez was just so much more superior in ever area than most all of his opponents!!!

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 21 Jan 2008, 02:41

I remember watching the Brown/Ortiz title fight on TV. I think the cards were stacked in Vegas that night. Brown was on a roll defending his title. Ortiz was expected to give him a battle,but "Old Bones" looked like his nickname that night. He should have been penalized for lack of effort. I remember one time he tripped and was laughing while he was on the canvas. I don't think the judges gave him a round. After that he took the the one way trip to Palookaville..

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 02:56

Brown was a hell of a fighter as well. How old was he when he fought Ortiz...37? I know there was ten years difference between the two in age, but I do not recall their ages for the fight.

I know a lot of newbies nowadays look at his overall record and see the 40+ losses and they assume that he couldn't be all that good with so many losses, but when he was at his best Brown could hang with any lightweight in the world and would beat most of them!

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Jan 2008, 03:03

"...Now very, very few fighters could even hang with Gomez at all as he simply just overwhelmed most opponents with overwhelming skill and tools..." - Barry

Maybe so, but Ortiz is one fighter who could. He was the superior fighter, IMO, & is shockingly undersold in general.

Ortiz was superbly gifted.

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 03:15

Hell, Ortiz was a lot bigger than Gomez...and I would imagine that Ortiz would quite possibly score a quick, clean KO over Gomez. As far as overall skills Ortiz was very evenly matched up with Gomez as he was a great fighter who at his best had very little weakness if any...no doubts whatsoever about that!

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Jan 2008, 03:22

I just don't get why he's so under-appreciated. He was brilliant.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 21 Jan 2008, 03:50

barry wrote:Brown was a hell of a fighter as well. How old was he when he fought Ortiz...37? I know there was ten years difference between the two in age, but I do not recall their ages for the fight.

I know a lot of newbies nowadays look at his overall record and see the 40+ losses and they assume that he couldn't be all that good with so many losses, but when he was at his best Brown could hang with any lightweight in the world and would beat most of them!

Brown was a very good lightweight champ. He beat Kenny Lane when a lot of people thought Lane would take his title. The thing that stuck in my mind was how one sided Brown lost to Ortiz. Brown did not take a beating. He didn't throw any punches. I can't believe even at his age that he "hit the wall" that fast. After that fight is when he did start taking a beating. If you disregard Brown's record after his fight with Ortiz,you can see more clearly his talent as a fighter.

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 04:02

>>>I just don't get why he's so under-appreciated. He was brilliant.<<<

I agree completely!!!

Unfortunately boxing history is absolutely littered with a slew of great fighters, such as Ortiz, that get little respect today.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 22 Jan 2008, 02:19

Joe Brown was a gifted technician...I just could not accept how they used him as ladder for future prospects after the Ortiz fight.

Carlos Ortiz to me, was one of the most complete fighters that I have seen on film...Wilfredo Gomez was a complete fighter, too. I just do not know what happened in the Salvador Sanchez fight. He did not looked like the Gomez that I was accostumed to see...I wonder if Gomez prepared himself properly for that fight.

barry · Post by **barry** » 22 Jan 2008, 09:31

Well for the Sanchez bout it was pretty well documented of how Gomez was more concerned with being the playboy party guy and that really was the case leading up to the Sanchez fight...Gomez simply did not train properly for that bout and it showed very much in the fight.

Now that aside...Sanchez turned out to be a truly special fighter who I don't think Gomez could have beat in a rematch, but if Gomez was trained as he should be the fight would have been a lot closer and Gomez would not have taken the complete one-sided drubbing that he did, but I do not think he could have beat Sanchez, but he certainly would have done better than he did had he trained properly.

kidbazooka1 · Post by **kidbazooka1** » 07 May 2008, 00:58

Two all time greats but IMO Gomez was the greater of the two.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 07 May 2008, 11:59

dagosd2000 wrote: The fight where Zarate moved up in weight to fight Gomez when both boys were undefeated was huge event in the Latino boxing world. That's why Sanchez is considered in Mexico as a legend. He revenged the loss of Zarate to Gomez. Puerto Rican fighter against a Mexican fighter was something special in those days.

.

Take a look at the unbelievable fouling Gomez got away with against Zarate.

Gomez was free to do that in any fight in Puerto Rico.

Carlos Ortiz was a far greater fighter.

Ortiz didn't need to foul to win.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 07 May 2008, 12:37

granberry wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote: The fight where Zarate moved up in weight to fight Gomez when both boys were undefeated was huge event in the Latino boxing world. That's why Sanchez is considered in Mexico as a legend. He revenged the loss of Zarate to Gomez. Puerto Rican fighter against a Mexican fighter was something special in those days.

.
Take a look at the unbelievable fouling Gomez got away with against Zarate.

Gomez was free to do that in any fight in Puerto Rico.

Carlos Ortiz was a far greater fighter.

Ortiz didn't need to foul to win.

Yes the left hook that hurt Zarate was an unbelievable dirty tactic by Gomez. Gomez should have warned Zarate that the left hook was coming and to get out of the way.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 07 May 2008, 15:42

For those who know the rules of boxing (obviously that is well beyond some here) Gomez fouled Zarate like mad, including hitting him while he was down

all with the blessing of the referee.

Easily seen on YOUTUBE.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 07 May 2008, 15:59

Without taking any shots at Gomez, I favor Ortiz because he was, in my opinion, one of the most complete fighters I ever saw.

I saw him live in his next-to-the-last fight, and saw him on film in his prime. He could do it all - punch, box, great footwork, good defense, and very smart. He wasn't the best in any of these catagories, but he could do them all. The complete package.

And although it says nothing about his abilities as a fighter, he was also one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 07 May 2008, 16:21

raylawpc wrote:Without taking any shots at Gomez, I favor Ortiz because he was, in my opinion, one of the most complete fighters I ever saw.

I saw him live in his next-to-the-last fight, and saw him on film in his prime. He could do it all - punch, box, great footwork, good defense, and very smart. He wasn't the best in any of these catagories, but he could do them all. The complete package.

And although it says nothing about his abilities as a fighter, he was also one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet.

Tom,

I have to agree with you on your post.

I seen Carlos Ortiz fight live early in his career against,

Mickey Northup..1956

Phil Kim..1956

Joey Lopes...1958

Battling Torres..1960

Cisco Andrade..1961

Wilfredo Gomez, I only seen fight live once, against Salvador Sanchez.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 07 May 2008, 17:02

granberry wrote:For those who know the rules of boxing (obviously that is well beyond some here) Gomez fouled Zarate like mad, including hitting him while he was down

all with the blessing of the referee.

Easily seen on YOUTUBE.

Since you are the expert can you please tell us what those fouls were? Yes I gave you he hit him while down in the heat of the moment, but what other fouls are you talking about? And he hit him while he was down after the fight was already over. Look at Zarate's corner throwing the towel before Gomez hit him. Now the question stands what other fouls are you taking about? Please enlighten us and share your expert knowledge with us the learners.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 07 May 2008, 17:07

Ortiz was the complete package.

He was also physically stronger than almost anyone his weight.

What a disappointment his fight with Joe Brown was. Not Ortiz' fault.

Minotauro · Post by **Minotauro** » 08 May 2008, 13:45

Gomez he had it all was amazing at 122.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 08 May 2008, 13:49

granberry wrote:Ortiz was the complete package.

He was also physically stronger than almost anyone his weight.

What a disappointment his fight with Joe Brown was. Not Ortiz' fault.

Why not answer Borinken's question?

Gomez or Ortiz: Who was the greatest Puerto Rican fighter?

Gomez or Ortiz: Who was the greatest Puerto Rican fighter?

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