Fights That Didn't Look Right To You

[Rocky Balboa]

Ali-Liston 2. In my opinion, no way was the punch landed on Sonny hard enough to put him away. There was definately more to it that what was seen. Personally, I think Liston was told what to do or he knew what would happen soon after if he didn't comply.

With regards to Lewis-Tyson, I believe Tyson was on medication. Don't get me wrong, I still think Lewis would have won regardless, but Tyson looked very docile, not interested in the bout at all. At the time of the fight, seeing Tyson's ring walk, I actually said to a friend something's not right with Tyson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali-Liston 2. In my opinion, no way was the punch landed on Sonny hard enough to put him away. There was definately more to it that what was seen. Personally, I think Liston was told what to do or he knew what would happen soon after if he didn't comply.

With regards to Lewis-Tyson, I believe Tyson was on medication. Don't get me wrong, I still think Lewis would have won regardless, but Tyson looked very docile, not interested in the bout at all. At the time of the fight, seeing Tyson's ring walk, I actually said to a friend something's not right with Tyson.

Tyson was never interested in the fight. This was evident long before the bout took place. The fight was always --- & only --- about money for Tyson.

After the fight...

"The payday was great..."

Can't fault his honesty.

[BoxBuzz]

..i wondered why the referee stopped the leonard/benetiz fight when benitez just had a cut on the forehead and it was in the fifteenth round. benetiz didn't protest and even smiled. leonard would have won the decision....fairly...if it had gone that far. to more than a few of us it appeared that the stoppage was done to give leonard a knockout win...which some late odds favored.

as i said....i just wondered....

Because the fight took place in Las Vegas and the Vegas referee did as he was told because of the betting.

There were SIX seconds left when he stopped it.

That never should have happened.

[granberry]

..i wondered why the referee stopped the leonard/benetiz fight when benitez just had a cut on the forehead and it was in the fifteenth round. benetiz didn't protest and even smiled. leonard would have won the decision....fairly...if it had gone that far. to more than a few of us it appeared that the stoppage was done to give leonard a knockout win...which some late odds favored.

as i said....i just wondered....

Because the fight took place in Las Vegas and the Vegas referee did as he was told because of the betting.

There were SIX seconds left when he stopped it.

That never should have happened.

LOTS of the crap in the careers of Ali and his replacement Sugar Ray Leonard should never have happened.

.

[granberry]

Am surprised this one hasnt been brought up yet, considering its about the most controversail bout in history, but here goes:

CASSIUS CLAY (MUHAMMAD ALI) vs CHALES SONNY LISTON 2

Simple one....Sonny just lost his courage.

It's a tough life for Ali salesman.

Their hero's career rests on obvious fakes.

How to handle this big problem?

The latest Ali shill talking point is what Buzz repeats above.

The fact that it is garbage doesn't concern the Ali shills.

They hope that if the repeat it like a mantra often enough it will become "true."

The truth is the fight was a raw fake.

So phony that any ten year old could tell that.

The Ali shills have an unenviable job trying to explain away all the crap that their hero's career rests on.

.

[Marlin]

I agree with granberry.

[BoxBuzz]

Am surprised this one hasnt been brought up yet, considering its about the most controversail bout in history, but here goes:

CASSIUS CLAY (MUHAMMAD ALI) vs CHALES SONNY LISTON 2

Simple one....Sonny just lost his courage.

It's a tough life for Ali salesman.

Their hero's career rests on obvious fakes.

How to handle this big problem?

The latest Ali shill talking point is what Buzz repeats above.

The fact that it is garbage doesn't concern the Ali shills.

They hope that if the repeat it like a mantra often enough it will become "true."

The truth is the fight was a raw fake.

So phony that any ten year old could tell that.

The Ali shills have an unenviable job trying to explain away all the crap that their hero's career rests on.

.

I agree it was a fake, but only in as much as Sonny simply refused to take the beating that was inevitable. Your bellyaching on this one does not change a thing. It was NO CONSPIRACY....just a man who lost his courage one day in Maine. No MAFIA....no ISLAMIC intimidation....just a man who did not want to take a beating from another man.

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. I think Sonny could have made it back up...and fought on.....and lost the fight. He tried his level best to beat a blind Ali and could not do it. He wasn't going to get any further on this day and he knew it.

And so do you....somewhere in your gut where you actually level with yourself....you know it too. Just like you know that the 15th round of the Thrilla in Manilla....had it played out was not going to be Joe's finest hour.

And yep that Benetiz moment was bizarre and uncalled for.

[granberry]

Simple one....Sonny just lost his courage.

It's a tough life for Ali salesman.

Their hero's career rests on obvious fakes.

How to handle this big problem?

The latest Ali shill talking point is what Buzz repeats above.

The fact that it is garbage doesn't concern the Ali shills.

They hope that if the repeat it like a mantra often enough it will become "true."

The truth is the fight was a raw fake.

So phony that any ten year old could tell that.

The Ali shills have an unenviable job trying to explain away all the crap that their hero's career rests on.

.

I agree it was a fake, but only in as much as Sonny simply refused to take the beating that was inevitable. Your bellyaching on this one does not change a thing. It was NO CONSPIRACY....just a man who lost his courage one day in Maine. No MAFIA....no ISLAMIC intimidation....just a man who did not want to take a beating from another man.

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. I think Sonny could have made it back up...and fought on.....and lost the fight. He tried his level best to beat a blind Ali and could not do it. He wasn't going to get any further on this day and he knew it.

And so do you....somewhere in your gut where you actually level with yourself....you know it too. Just like you know that the 15th round of the Thrilla in Manilla....had it played out was not going to be Joe's finest hour.

And yep that Benetiz moment was bizarre and uncalled for.

Buzz, the frantic Ali shill,

pours out the pathetic Ali religion talking points.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Nothing wrong with the Leonard-Benitez call. Benitez was all kinds of gone & couldn't stop the punches landing.

You know, the more I think of it, the more respect & admiration I have to give Leonard, in & out of the ring. He was brave, taking on all-comers. Tough, duking it out & persevering under punishment, he was adaptable, recovering from defeat to avenge his pride, & had all the talent in the world. He also went to great lengths to make the fights the public wanted to see, bless him for that. Outside the ring, he was a sterling gentleman & a kind human being.

Hard not to like him. Or, at the very least, respect a man who selflessly gave so much to boxing & people around the world.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Horribly bored at work last night, & I'll have to give this up --- it was a bait for you, Granberry, because I know how you feel about Leonard, & you were on the board at the time I posted it. I thought you couldn't resist my comment about Leonard selflessly making fights the public wanted to see, given how selective he was. Thought I'd add a bit of sweetener to it by praising him as a person, not just a fighter.

Unfortunately, I never saw your reply until now. Sorry mate for winding you up

[Ambling Alp]

So this is going to be yet another anti-Leonard thread?
Goodnight Irene-I actually thought the comments about Leonard fighting the best and being a good person outside of the ring were serious, but it turns out that they weren't.

Leonard making the fights that the public wanted to see: Well, he fought Benitez,Duran three times,Hearns twice, and Hagler. Who did he not fight that the public wanted to see?
This is despite missing crucial years because of his eye injury. He didn't have to come back after the eye injury and didn't owe the public anything. Yet he did come back and fought Hagler, and Duran and Hearns again.

That Leonard has a baby face and can actually talk fairly intelligently is something that some people can't stomach. Over the years, from numerous interviews, his time as a boxing announcer, and the show "The Contender" Leonard has always seemed like a nice person.

He had walked the walk. He never ducked anyone in his whole career. He beat 9 Top 10 contenders before fighting for a title. How many fighters in the last 40 years have done this?

Here is a news flash: Just because someone is good looking and smart, doesn't automatically mean they are a bad person.

[BoxBuzz]

He can defeat Danny Bonaducci in less than one round!

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76404

[ferroz]

I may be alone on this one but I think Clifford Ettiene threw his fight against Tyson. He was down yes but still had enough coordination to take his mouth piece out of his mouth and he just lay there. I know he wouldn't have won anyway but it has always been wierd to me.

[IKSRTFO]

So this is going to be yet another anti-Leonard thread?
Goodnight Irene-I actually thought the comments about Leonard fighting the best and being a good person outside of the ring were serious, but it turns out that they weren't.

Leonard making the fights that the public wanted to see: Well, he fought Benitez,Duran three times,Hearns twice, and Hagler. Who did he not fight that the public wanted to see?
This is despite missing crucial years because of his eye injury. He didn't have to come back after the eye injury and didn't owe the public anything. Yet he did come back and fought Hagler, and Duran and Hearns again.

That Leonard has a baby face and can actually talk fairly intelligently is something that some people can't stomach. Over the years, from numerous interviews, his time as a boxing announcer, and the show "The Contender" Leonard has always seemed like a nice person.

He had walked the walk. He never ducked anyone in his whole career. He beat 9 Top 10 contenders before fighting for a title. How many fighters in the last 40 years have done this?

Here is a news flash: Just because someone is good looking and smart, doesn't automatically mean they are a bad person.

I am a Leonard fan but I don't think he ever wanted to fight Aaron Pryor.

[Goodnight, Irene]

So this is going to be yet another anti-Leonard thread?
Goodnight Irene-I actually thought the comments about Leonard fighting the best and being a good person outside of the ring were serious, but it turns out that they weren't.

Leonard making the fights that the public wanted to see: Well, he fought Benitez,Duran three times,Hearns twice, and Hagler. Who did he not fight that the public wanted to see?
This is despite missing crucial years because of his eye injury. He didn't have to come back after the eye injury and didn't owe the public anything. Yet he did come back and fought Hagler, and Duran and Hearns again.

That Leonard has a baby face and can actually talk fairly intelligently is something that some people can't stomach. Over the years, from numerous interviews, his time as a boxing announcer, and the show "The Contender" Leonard has always seemed like a nice person.

He had walked the walk. He never ducked anyone in his whole career. He beat 9 Top 10 contenders before fighting for a title. How many fighters in the last 40 years have done this?

Here is a news flash: Just because someone is good looking and smart, doesn't automatically mean they are a bad person.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I was just placing the post in such a way that Granberry couldn't resist it. & he did reply, both before & after I revealed it was a joke. He's since deleted his responses, more power to him I say. Now, no one will know he went for the feint. Well, almost.

I personally don't hold a lot against Leonard as a fighter --- I had him up on my card against Hagler, thought he recovered from the loss to Duran as well as anyone could (Though he probably under-performed losing the first time out) & did not duck Aaron Pryor, despite what some people say.

I am disappointed there was no rematch with Benitez, though. Benitez was genuinely hindered for the bulk of that fight by a severe cut. He was the type of fighter who was talented & skilled enough to defeat Leonard under different circumstances, & I think Leonard knew it. I'm not saying a rematch would have been different, but that result is tainted.

That aside, Leonard fought the best & beat them, even if he was a bit of a contract nazi.

[I Feel Fine]

I may be alone on this one but I think Clifford Ettiene threw his fight against Tyson. He was down yes but still had enough coordination to take his mouth piece out of his mouth and he just lay there. I know he wouldn't have won anyway but it has always been wierd to me.

I don't know that a fighter taking out his mouthpiece indicates that he isn't out, but even if it does, all it means is he got nailed by a huge punch and stayed down rather than get up and get killed.

----------------

Leonard didn't duck Pryor. Fighting Hagler but ducking Pryor?... frying pan into the fire.

I've heard people say that Leonard is a dick in person. Not sure why that should matter. I'll never understand why people care about a fighter's private life. I think Tyson is overrated, but not because of what he did outside of the ring.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Etienne should have had his purse withheld. It was disgraceful. Reminded me of Seldon.

[I Feel Fine]

Haven't seen the fight in a long time but I think I've heard it said that Seldon wasn't even hit with the supposed knock out punch. Either way, one can't say the same for Ettiene. The guy got blasted. And its not like it looked as if he had purposely walked into a punch or something, it seemed to me that Tyson legitimately caught him by surprise.

Ettiene isn't exactly the ultimate warrior, either, he doesn't strike me as the type who is going to get up and put his life on the line as if he were Archie Moore up against Yvonne Durrelle or something. That hardly means he threw the fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't think the fight was a fix either, but Etienne more likely just quit. In all honesty, throwing in the towel to protect yourself or quitting because you can't take it anymore, while legitimate, will always be abused by someone like Etienne, who shouldn't have the right to enter a fight, take his money, & walk out at the drop of a hat.

A fighter shouldn't have to give everything he has in every fight, that's unrealistic. However, by the same token, no one should be able to get away with pulling what Etienne did against Tyson.

[Ezzard]

So this is going to be yet another anti-Leonard thread?
Goodnight Irene-I actually thought the comments about Leonard fighting the best and being a good person outside of the ring were serious, but it turns out that they weren't.

Leonard making the fights that the public wanted to see: Well, he fought Benitez,Duran three times,Hearns twice, and Hagler. Who did he not fight that the public wanted to see?
This is despite missing crucial years because of his eye injury. He didn't have to come back after the eye injury and didn't owe the public anything. Yet he did come back and fought Hagler, and Duran and Hearns again.

That Leonard has a baby face and can actually talk fairly intelligently is something that some people can't stomach. Over the years, from numerous interviews, his time as a boxing announcer, and the show "The Contender" Leonard has always seemed like a nice person.

He had walked the walk. He never ducked anyone in his whole career. He beat 9 Top 10 contenders before fighting for a title. How many fighters in the last 40 years have done this?

Here is a news flash: Just because someone is good looking and smart, doesn't automatically mean they are a bad person.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I was just placing the post in such a way that Granberry couldn't resist it. & he did reply, both before & after I revealed it was a joke. He's since deleted his responses, more power to him I say. Now, no one will know he went for the feint. Well, almost.

I personally don't hold a lot against Leonard as a fighter --- I had him up on my card against Hagler, thought he recovered from the loss to Duran as well as anyone could (Though he probably under-performed losing the first time out) & did not duck Aaron Pryor, despite what some people say.

I am disappointed there was no rematch with Benitez, though. Benitez was genuinely hindered for the bulk of that fight by a severe cut. He was the type of fighter who was talented & skilled enough to defeat Leonard under different circumstances, & I think Leonard knew it. I'm not saying a rematch would have been different, but that result is tainted.

That aside, Leonard fought the best & beat them, even if he was a bit of a contract nazi.

I don't think Leonard ducked Pryor at all. He may have treated him badly but remember the press conference when everyone thought he was going to announce the Hagler fight but instead he retired? Leonard played tricks with everyone.

Leonard was the money so he got to dictate the terms. I agree it's a real shame some of the rematches didn't happen.

[IKSRTFO]

I may be alone on this one but I think Clifford Ettiene threw his fight against Tyson. He was down yes but still had enough coordination to take his mouth piece out of his mouth and he just lay there. I know he wouldn't have won anyway but it has always been wierd to me.

I don't know that a fighter taking out his mouthpiece indicates that he isn't out, but even if it does, all it means is he got nailed by a huge punch and stayed down rather than get up and get killed.

----------------

Leonard didn't duck Pryor. Fighting Hagler but ducking Pryor?... frying pan into the fire.

I've heard people say that Leonard is a dick in person. Not sure why that should matter. I'll never understand why people care about a fighter's private life. I think Tyson is overrated, but not because of what he did outside of the ring.

Leonard clearly waited until Hagler was out of his prime to fight him. If that fight with Mugabi would have never happened, he never would have gotten any ideas. There is no reason not to fight Pryor as that would have increased his legacy even more as Pryor was unbeaten in that time period.

[Ambling Alp]

The baseless anti-Leonard comments continue.

It's a huge disadvantage is it for a fighter to (in this case Leonard )have one fight in 5 years and then move up in weight and challenge for the title.

If you were managing a 25 year old welterweight, would your advice be to fight once in the next 5 years and then fight one of the greatest middleweights of all time? That would like telling a 25 year old today to not fight until 2010, then not fight again until moving up in weight and fighting the middleweight champion in 2013. Nobody would do that.

People act like Hagler was ready for the Senior Citizen's Center. He was only 32. He had not taken that much punishment. He was the one with the advantages, which is what almost everyone was saying before the fight. No one was saying that Hagler was past it before the fight. It's only revisionist history that somehow comes up with this ridiculaus idea that it was Leonard's master plan all along to wait until Hagler was supposedly washed up.

For anyone that doesn't think it was a big deal for Leonmard to comeback after this long of a layoff, how many fighters can you name in any weight class that has comeback after a 3 year layoff to win the title without any tuneups?

As for Aaron Pryor- Leonard took on Hearns,Duran, and Hagler, but he is scared of Aaron Pryor? Come on.


If Pryor really wanted to fight Leonard so bad, he could have moved up to the welterweight division. He had to have known if he did that Leonard would have had to fight him sooner or later.
I would like to hear of other examples of a fighter being accused of ducking someone who won't move up to his weight class.

Wilfred Benitez? First of all, the cut on the forehead didn't affect the fight at all. I have never heard anyone complain about this before, but now I guess we will hearing about this a lot from the anti-Leonard people. Benitez was able to see fine. It wasn't an issue at all.

A rematch would have been nice, but (like Duran and Hearns) Benitez moved up in weight right after fighting Leonard. You can't move out of a weight class and expect the guy who beat you to move up and fight you. Once again, if Benitez really wanted a rematch so bad, he would have stayed in Leonard's division.
It wasn't a mismatch, but it really wasn't that close either. There is little reason to think Benitez would have won had they fought again.

In regard to Leonard, it's like some people just throw commonsense out the window. They are willing to believe anything negative about him, regardless of whether it has any vaidlity or not.

[IKSRTFO]

The baseless anti-Leonard comments continue.

It's a huge disadvantage is it for a fighter to (in this case Leonard )have one fight in 5 years and then move up in weight and challenge for the title.

If you were managing a 25 year old welterweight, would your advice be to fight once in the next 5 years and then fight one of the greatest middleweights of all time? That would like telling a 25 year old today to not fight until 2010, then not fight again until moving up in weight and fighting the middleweight champion in 2013. Nobody would do that.

People act like Hagler was ready for the Senior Citizen's Center. He was only 32. He had not taken that much punishment. He was the one with the advantages, which is what almost everyone was saying before the fight. No one was saying that Hagler was past it before the fight. It's only revisionist history that somehow comes up with this ridiculaus idea that it was Leonard's master plan all along to wait until Hagler was supposedly washed up.

For anyone that doesn't think it was a big deal for Leonmard to comeback after this long of a layoff, how many fighters can you name in any weight class that has comeback after a 3 year layoff to win the title without any tuneups?

As for Aaron Pryor- Leonard took on Hearns,Duran, and Hagler, but he is scared of Aaron Pryor? Come on.


If Pryor really wanted to fight Leonard so bad, he could have moved up to the welterweight division. He had to have known if he did that Leonard would have had to fight him sooner or later.
I would like to hear of other examples of a fighter being accused of ducking someone who won't move up to his weight class.

Wilfred Benitez? First of all, the cut on the forehead didn't affect the fight at all. I have never heard anyone complain about this before, but now I guess we will hearing about this a lot from the anti-Leonard people. Benitez was able to see fine. It wasn't an issue at all.

A rematch would have been nice, but (like Duran and Hearns) Benitez moved up in weight right after fighting Leonard. You can't move out of a weight class and expect the guy who beat you to move up and fight you. Once again, if Benitez really wanted a rematch so bad, he would have stayed in Leonard's division.
It wasn't a mismatch, but it really wasn't that close either. There is little reason to think Benitez would have won had they fought again.

In regard to Leonard, it's like some people just throw commonsense out the window. They are willing to believe anything negative about him, regardless of whether it has any vaidlity or not.

I'm not anti Leonard. I rate him above Floyd still. I just don't see the reason for not fighting Pryor when Leonard was still in his prime. It would've did more for his legacy, which he cared alot about. It didn't make sense for an all time great warrior and I feel that to some extent if you look at Pryor's record, he was cheated out of alot of great fights he should have had. Even if he would've lost to Leonard, Pryor's legacy deserved the recognition just like Hearns legacy.

[Ezzard]

I know we've been round the circuit on this but I can't help but play again...

I think half of what you say is right, Alp.

No way did he duck Pryor. It would have been a perfect fight for Leonard. A big name opponent who was good but not good enough. Pryor had a hard enough time with Arguello, a man who started as 126 and who had a great style for Pryor. Aaron was good but no way he takes Sugar Ray. I think Leonard would have disposed of him easily.

IMO Leonard beat Hagler fair and square. It was a top performance.

There's no doubt though that Leonard, consciously or not, waited for the right time. He admits as much. He said as much after watching the Mugabi fight. That's not me saying it was a master plan but he said it and he had 5 years in which to make the fight but he chose that moment.

I agree it was a big deal and a fine win.
Hagler wasn't washed up but the combinations had gone and he'd lost a beat. Still a great win though.

The cut against Bentiez MUST mean something. Come on, of course it does. How can it not? To say it wasn't an issue is just wrong. Would it have changed the outcome? No. Would benitez have won a rematch? I doubt it. Did he have a chance though? yes.

Absolutely everyone wanted to fight Leonard. They wanted the pay day. Those guys moved up to win another title as the 147 crown was with Leonard and he said he would not grant rematches and the logic was they were all moving north. Hearns and Leonard were growing out of the division and Duran no longer trained diligently enough.

They left the division to make as much money as they could. they all wanted rematches because they amount they could earn from fighting Ray was huge. Winning titles made a rematch more likely and paid better.

Had Leonard stayed retired nobody could have argued but he didn't.

If he could fight Hagler 5 years later he could have made those fights. He chose not to.

[Ambling Alp]

Well I'm glad that you agree about Pryor. I would like to add that At the time that Leonard retired, Pryor had yet to fight Arguello. Pryor was only the Jr Welterweight champion for about a year and half before Leonard had to retire with the eye injury. Leonard fought Duran, Hearns and even won the Jr Middleweight title.
During this time, Pryor fought Danny Myers, Gaetan Hart, Lennox Blackmore, Dujuan Johnson. That doesn't entitle you to be claiming that Ray Leonard must be ducking you.
Wrong or right, a fighter in a lower division is expected to move up if he wants to challenge a fighter in higher weight class. Pryor didn't do this.
There was no reason for Leonard to fight Pryor.

How can I say that cut that Benitez had didn't affect his performance? Becasue it didn't obstuct his vision. It was under control. I have seen this fight many times. It never even occurred to me that anyone would think it was a problem becasue it wasn't. I have read about this fight. I have never heard people talk about it. I have never once heard a word that the cut was a factor. Now all of the sudden it is. Anything to taint a big win of Leonards.

Leonard could have Hagler 5 years before he did? Am I the only one who remembers that Leonard had a detached retina and was told not to fight again? That was in 1982. Leonard was set to defend his welterweight title against Roger Stafford. If he had not had the eye injury, he wasn't going to be moving up to middleweight any time soon. He probably would have moved to Jr Middleweight for a couple of years. He certainly wasn't going to move up to middleweight for a while. The earliest that he possibly could have fought Hagler would have been 1985.
He did fight again in 1984, but decided to quit again. How can he possibly be blamed for this?

I am so sick of the won't give rematches nonsense about Leonard. Ezzard you are smart guy, why can't you figure this out? Look at the facts. they don't support this at all.
Leonard did fight Duran 3 times, Hearns twice, Hagler, Benitez. He did this despite missing probably the best 5 years of his prime.

No one ever applies the same standard to the other fighters.
Benitez never gave Duran a rematch.
Hearns never gave Duran or Benitez a rematch.
Hagler never gave Duran or Hearns a rematch.
Duran never gave Buchanan or Barkley a rematch.

I'm sure there are valid reasons for some of these rematches not happening, however can we some reasoning when it come to Leonard?

Of the fights featuring two of Leonard, Duran, Hagler,Hearns, and Benitez, who had the most?
Leonard. Despite the fact that the other guys had 5 more years than he did. Yet he is the one accused of not fighting people.

How many times was Leonard supposed to fight each of these guys in the shortened career that he had?

Would 3 times each against Duran,Hagler,Hearns,Benitez, and now I guess Pryor been enough?

He had more major fights than any of these guys, despite missing almost 5 years. How many major fights should have had to have fought?
I would really like to know the number.