Fighters who had another Fighter's "Number"

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 23 Jan 2008, 19:40

This subject came up recently in a thread on Current Scene, namely of examples where a lesser or limited fighter seemed to have a better-regarded fighter's "number", either by way of a particular stylistic matchup or for some reason just having the other guy psyched out. Examples that occurred to me right off the bat - in each case the "lesser" fighter is first:

Ezzard Charles vs. Archie Moore: "lesser" doesn't apply so much to Charles, but he did beat Moore 3 out of 3 at LHW, whereas Moore's LHW legacy is as good or greater than Ezz's;

Ken Norton vs. Muhammad Ali: Could very easily have ended up 2 out of 3 for Norton, except for some Ali-friendly judging;

Antonio Tarver vs. Roy Jones: First fight was close but fair win for RJJ, but in the 2nd Tarver seemed to have Roy psyched out from the start and then stretched him. In the 3rd fight Jones looked like he was happy just to not get KOed.

Vernon Forrest vs. Shane Mosley

Carlos Mayorga vs. Vernon Forrest

Comments welcome, and I'm hoping for more illustrative examples from the historians around here - I'm sure there are many more.

barry · Post by **barry** » 23 Jan 2008, 19:59

You have to remember...Ezz Charles simply never got the opportunities at Light Heavyweight, but I imagine that had he been given a title shot at 175 and had he stayed at that weight a long time that he would have just as impressive a record at 175 as Moore. I would have liked to have seen Charles get the same kind of treatment at 175, but I also would have liked to have seen Moore get the same kind of treatment at 160.

Tarver-Jones: First bout was close, but justly Jones got the win, Tarver lsot the first and second round in the next bout and landed a bomb that Jones simply never saw coming and put him down, though it was a tko unlike Johnson's clean KO of Jones. The third bout Jones was entirely happy just to survive, but then again Tarver certainly was not burning any barns down to put Jones away. Unfortunately they may actually fight a fourth time!

Norton-Ali: Some fighters simply do better against a certain fighter, but it certainly does not mean that the fighter is equal to the man he beats...Norton is a fine example...out of 10 fights Norton might win four, or five, but overall all he was no where near Ali's league. Same thing could be said of Thomas Hearns and Iran Barkley. Hearns overall was much the better fighter and he will be a first ballot HOFer, yet Barkley had his number. Some fighters simply have the "Indian Sign" over others. I think Frankie Randall really had this over Chavez though Chavez did win the last bout after Randall had lost close to 10 in a row.

Forrest seemed to have the "Indian Sign" over Mosley, though they may have a third fight, which Forrest will probably win as well, but overall career-wise...Mosley has had far the better career.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 23 Jan 2008, 20:09

Jones was just old. I don't see that Tarver would've been able to hang with the Jones of the mid-to-late 90's. I thought Mosley won the return with Forrest, though I am in a clear minority. I did clean up backing underdog Forrest in the original, which made me look like some kind of genius when I described it essentially just as it played out. I pulled the winner & the description out of my ass, but it was damn near perfect. That was nice

Ali faired best against Norton when he was on his toes moving, so that tells me he wouldn't have had such a hard time in the 60's, when he could do that all night. Even so, I can't envision Norton ever being an easy fight for Ali. He could take away Ali's jab & that would always be a problem.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Jan 2008, 20:17

and Mayorga in turn seemed to have Forrests number.

Norton very nearly had Ali's

Ali had Liston's and Foreman's

Hearns had Duran's (in most people's opinion though I say fluke)

Pryor had Arguello's

Virgil Hill had Fabrice Tiozzo's Who in turn may have had Darius Michelzewskis.

Tarver had Jone's

Jone's had Toney's

Charles had Moore's (according to Jaclem)

Holyfield had Tyson's

Liston had Patterson's

Saddler may have had Pep's (that'll start arguments!)

Tua had Ruiz's

Golata had Bowe's....and maybe Byrd's and Ruiz's........(but of course couldn't do anything with them!)

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 23 Jan 2008, 22:22

Max Baer could never get past Lou Nova

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:53

BoxBuzz wrote:and Mayorga in turn seemed to have Forrests number.

Norton very nearly had Ali's

Ali had Liston's and Foreman's

Hearns had Duran's (in most people's opinion though I say fluke)

Pryor had Arguello's

Virgil Hill had Fabrice Tiozzo's Who in turn may have had Darius Michelzewskis.

Tarver had Jone's

Jone's had Toney's

Charles had Moore's (according to Jaclem)

Holyfield had Tyson's

Liston had Patterson's

Saddler may have had Pep's (that'll start arguments!)

Tua had Ruiz's

Golata had Bowe's....and maybe Byrd's and Ruiz's........(but of course couldn't do anything with them!)

I think in some cases you're confusing the concept of, "having a guy's number" with just plain being a better fighter.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:55

"...Hearns had Duran's (in most people's opinion though I say fluke)..." - BoxBuzz

No way, IMO. If they were the same size, & each in their primes, Duran would absolutely monster Hearns, & I'm the type who thinks Duran is just a touch over-estimated by people.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 24 Jan 2008, 00:35

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"...Hearns had Duran's (in most people's opinion though I say fluke)..." - BoxBuzz

No way, IMO. If they were the same size, & each in their primes, Duran would absolutely monster Hearns, & I'm the type who thinks Duran is just a touch over-estimated by people.

I heard Emmanuel Stewart say that before Hearns fought Duran,Roberto was not up to his "macho psych act"around Tommy. Instead of Duran having this bravado of the tough guy around Hearns,Emmanuel thought Roberto was in kind of a shell. This surprised Stewart. Hearns was different than Duran,Leonard,and Hagler. Those three,to me,were more layered than Hearns. Duran,Leonard,and Hagler could put on different faces depending on the situation. Hearns was more like Joe Frazier. Basic,never changing and not having the insight to play mind games. I think Duran was a little intimidated by Tommy because he knew his "macho" act would go over his head.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Jan 2008, 10:29

Duran just had an off night when he fought Hearns, and the Hitman had a knack for giving guys off nights i,e Pipino Cuevas, James Shuler, Fred Hutchings etc.

Style wise, Hearns was probably the worst matchup that Duran had in his career. Tommy had a huge reach advantage,with faster hands to boot, a huge power advantage, and unlike Barkley who was his height, he'd never fight Duran on the inside. Unless Hearns twisted an ankle or something, I just couldn't visualize a scenario where Duran would beat Hearns. He'd have to slip, block, bob and weave against a comparative giant, while hoping to get on the inside where he still wouldn't have serious one punch power at 154.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 24 Jan 2008, 10:42

I used to believe that Hearns always beats Duran. But when Buzz first put his theory forward it made sense. Hearns doesn't like a guy who can soak it up, get him into the later rounds and come on strong, hit the body and have the ability to slip and get inside. Duran had all these things.

At 147 Duran may have had a lot more success.

Chilling fight though and hats off to Tommy for the win.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 25 Jan 2008, 03:22

Norton didn't have Ali's number. For one thing, as goodnight already said, Ali was not in his prime and his way of fighting in the 60's would have served him better against Norton than his 70's incarnation did. But aside from that, Norton just had the benefit of circumstances. In the first fight Norton was a tune up who Ali was supposed to stop in a couple of rounds. Ali had just fought Joe Bugner a month before and trained about two weeks for Norton, and clearly had no idea what was in front of him. As the years went on Norton got even better while Ali slipped even further, and by the time of the third fight Norton was in his prime and Ali was a borderline shot fighter. Norton didn't have Ali's number any more than Gene Fullmer had Robinson's, it was a tough series of fights but one guy was able to win the series (or in Norton's case he came close to winning it) because he was younger and out lasted the other guy. If a prime Norton, for example, had met a 34 year old Holmes he would have kicked Holmes' ass and as a result some would have said that Norton had Holmes' number. But, because Norton met a prime Holmes, Holmes was able to beat him by a very close decision. A younger Ali would have done much better against Norton, even if the fights would have always been close, which they would have been. Bad style match for Ali? Yes, same with Frazier. Did he have Ali's number? No.

I doubt Duran ever beats Hearns, though perhaps he'd be able to perform better against him at 147. I think some badly underestimate Hearns.

Fullmer did have Basilio's number. He didn't just beat him, he gave him a bit of a boxing lesson. Barrera-Hamed (another case of someone having another fighter's number) was a similar situation, where the slugger started to box and schooled his opponent who was favored to beat him.

I hesitate to say that Zivic had Armstrong's number, considering Armstrong won the third fight. Golota had Bowe's, but someone forgot to tell Golota that. I suppose I shouldn't mention Griffin-Toney, since I've seen neither fight, but I find it odd that Toney couldn't beat him in two fights. Junior Jones and Pacquiao had Barrera's.

On that note, and to get to a more current example, I believe JMM has Pacquiao's number, though we almost didn't get to find out because Marquez was reckless in the first round of the first fight. I think Marquez will show it again in the rematch that he has Pacquiao's number.

And there was of course that somewhat interesting series of constant Welterweight upsets, De La Hoya-Mosley where Mosley seemed to have Oscar's number, Mosley-Forrest where Forrest seemed to have Shane's number, ditto Forrest-Mayorga, fights already mentioned here. That string of upsets continued with Mayorga-Spinks, Spinks-Judah II (maybe not an upset, but Spinks was favored) and Judah-Baldomir, though those four guys are of a much lower caliber and can be beaten by any number of fighters. But, still, that was an interesting string of fights, with the Welterweight title passing hands every other fight, with a new king getting bumped off by a guy he was supposed to beat but who instead seemed to have his number.

I'd also add Whitaker-Chavez, Chavez couldn't do anything with him.. though I suppose few of Whitaker's opponents could.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 25 Jan 2008, 04:15

Who is Carlos Mayorga?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Jan 2008, 08:23

Tantum wrote:Who is Carlos Mayorga?

You know...from down at Ace Hardware.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 25 Jan 2008, 13:57

Just in case I didn't properly clarify my stance on Hearns-Duran...

I don't think the result was a fluke. If they fought again the next day, Hearns would blow him out again. What I was saying was this --- if both fighters were the same natural size (i.e. pound-for-pound) & each were in their primes, I think Duran would get to Hearns.

Good post from I Feel Fine. Agree, right down the line...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 25 Jan 2008, 15:27

How about Lou Ambers and Lew Jenkins? Ambers was a much better fighter, but Jenkins stopped Ambers twice; the only times he was ever stopped.
Has there ever been a bigger gap between two fighters and the lesser fighter won both times?

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 25 Jan 2008, 15:36

Tyson had Brunos..

I mean Bruno was never the favorite, but Bruno certainly beat other top opponents, and give the really "Big" performers a good show, but against Tyson.... i dont know what happened to him. Never looked like winning

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 25 Jan 2008, 16:11

Bruno fought too tight against Tyson. He was even hitting Tyson in the first fight, but he was a bit too too wounded up to just go with a gameplan against him. It was funny you see him against Lennox and he was performing well, before Lennox's power bailed him out. I guess the aura of Mike got to Bruno.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 25 Jan 2008, 16:29

I guess the aura of Mike got to Bruno

you can say that again.

i bet if Tyson did nothing and just sat on the Turnbuckle in His corner, he would have won by TKO at some Point.

Bruno was just Off it, especially in the Re-Match

nobudius · Post by **nobudius** » 25 Jan 2008, 17:17

Ike Williams went 0&3 against Willie Joyce. While Joyce had some notable wins & losses, I've always wondered if there was more to these matches regarding Williams. Did Joyce have Ike's "number", or was there something shady going on?

Beau Jack could also never get over the Williams' hurdle.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 25 Jan 2008, 18:41

I don't think Jenkins had Ambers number Alp. Ambers was past his best at that point. This is a guy who spent 30 rds getting his face re-arranged by a prime Henry Armstrong, while doing a bit of face re-arranging himself.

Willie Joyce is one of the most underrated fighters of all time. Almost a local boy since he was from nearby Gary.

As for guy's having an opponent;s number, Packey McFarland took 4 out of 4 from the excellent Harlem Tommy Murphy.

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 25 Jan 2008, 18:43

BoxBuzz wrote:
Tantum wrote:Who is Carlos Mayorga?
You know...from down at Ace Hardware.

hahahahaaa

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 27 Jan 2008, 14:40

Vicente Saldivar had Howard Winstone`s number I`ll say that much. Howard got off to a good start each time out, but once the mexican upped the pace in the later rounds Howard could never keep up with him or keep him off. I`ve watched the trilogy several times and even if they had fought each other ten times Howard woud have come up short each time.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 27 Jan 2008, 15:58

I saw quite a few that I agreed with:

Tarver definitely had Jones #

Pryor had Arguello's

I DON'T think that Holyfield had Tyson's though.The pre-Robin Givens Tyson,would have battered a game,outgunned Holyfield into a late rd stoppage.

Curry had Starling's,and DEFINITELY McCrory & Larocca's.

Many think Honeyghan had Curry's(I don't,I think it was just an off night for Curry

zuru

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 27 Jan 2008, 16:37

Tiger Jones had Ray Robinson's number.

Robinson had Bobo Olson's number.

Billy Soose had Tony Zale's number.

Zale had Al Hostak's number.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 27 Jan 2008, 17:16

Iran Barkley had Tommy Hearns' number