Edde Futch biography

[Expug]

Granberry, did Dundee have any fighters that he trained from early in their career who did well? All of the fighters I can think of that he had were trained by others and he got them after they were established. (Ali, Ellis, Forman, etc.)

He did have Ali from early on, but Ali was already an Olympic champion.

Im not a real big Dundee fan.
He did have Carmen Basilio , Willie Pastrano , Luis Rodrigues and Ralph Dupas , but I dont know if he had them from day one.
Carmen was boxing am. in the Marine corp s to start.
Pastrano he might have had early because he was so young when he turned pro.
I dont know.
He trained a kid who trained out of the same gym as I did in Chicago named Joey Ruiz.
When I say kid, I mean kid.
He was 15 and fighting pro.
I never understood it. The kid was tough though.
His biggest fight was probably when he fought a draw with one of Joe Fraziers sons.
Its worth looking him up in the database.

[granberry]

Granberry,
If I ever get a chance to see those Mandell fights I'll definitely watch them.

Did you see that 140 pounder on ESPN a few weeks ago. I missed his name, but he had stopped about 33 out of 36 fighters he had beaten. He had a few losses too. He punched hard and seemed to have been taught by someone who knows how to train a fighter. He knocked out his opponent and ESPN showed the punch sequence from overhead. Perfect punches. All the power came across his front foot. It was textbook. I wish I had been taping that one. Does anyone remember the fighter?

Always heard that Harold Johnson was a master boxer but I haven't had the chance to see him much. If he was Jones size or smaller and out boxed him, I'm impressed. Jones had beautiful technique.

And Harold Johnson's was even superior.

John Condon said Harold Johnson was "one of the best fighters, technically, of ANY time."

You should get the Johnson-Jones title fight.

After seeing that, the level of the Spinks-Braxton (Qwawi) fight looks pathetic.

[DaveV17]

edit

[Ezzard]

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Ray Arcel... Granberry, do you know anything about Arcel?

One point on Steward and Hearns in the Leonard fight... I once saw an interview with Steward in which he admits that Hearns overtrained for the Leonard fight, but claims that it was Hearns' doing. Steward said that Tommy would not stop running and doing extra exercise when out of the gym.

I don't know if it's true or not but that's what he said in the interview. I'm not defending Steward either, just putting it out there.

[Flump]

Granberry,
If a "trainer" gets a guy who is already a well trained fighter like Ali, Bowe, Ellis, Frazier, Norton, etc. he won't be doing much "training." As you mentioned, a "cornerman" is more like it.

Did Eddie Futch or Angelo Dundee ever have a fighter that they trained from the start of their career to the top? I have nothing against either of them. I met both of them and both were nice people. But when you pointed out that neither were great trainers I started thinking about it and couldn't think of any fighters that either had that they trained from the beginning to the top.

Dundee messed up a lot of fighters.

He got Quick Tillis knocked out by Pinklon Thomas by exorting Tillis to trade with Thomas (you could hear Dundee in the corner between rounds on TV).

That was stupidity. Tillis would have lost a decision in that fight at worst without Dundee's 'help.'

In Tony Chiaverini's corner in a fight with Benitez,

Dundee got hysterical when Chiaverini wasn't doing well and started screaming useless insults at Chiaverini (right on TV). That is the last thing a competent cornerman would do.

Dundee exposed his incompetence to do with boxing over and over as a commentator on TV fights. He repeatedly suggested that a fighter should be doing something which revealed he didn't have a clue what was going on.

I knew personally a couple fighters whose managers paid to bring in the exalted Eddie Futch for one fight. In both cases they told me afterwards that Futch had nothing to offer and was very definitely the opposite of the "kindly" picture painted of him by the lapdog media.

Both Dundee and Futch would run anywhere to pick up some bucks quickly with anyone who would pay them to be in a corner.

Emanuel Steward overtrained Tommy Hearns so badly for the first Leonard fight that Hearns was so dehydrated he wasn't even sweating under the hot ring lights during the fight.

Then Steward did it again when Hearns fought Hagler, even though Hearns got to make 160 for that fight.

Steward told inexperienced Caveman Lee to go right at Hagler in their title fight rather than start carefully and get his bearings. The result would not have been as bad for Lee if he had not had such idiotic advice.

Steward never really "trained" any fighters in the gym once his career got going. He just ran continuously from one place to the next to collect money for being in all kinds of fighters' corners.

Incompetence of trainers is a big part of what caused the death of boxing.

I also remember Dundee when tending to the badly shaken Trevor Berbick after round one of his fight with Tyson getting hysterical and shouting 'where's the f*cking sponge' and searching for it for about 30 seconds instead of giving him some advice.

According to Mickey Duff, Dundee was almost totally dominated by his brother Chris and would do whatever he was told.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The most hilarious was his rant at the ring doctor during Tyson-Thomas.

"Well, he's alright! Leave him the f*** alone! God damn it, leave this f***ing man alone!"

He was hysterical, lol. I think he cried for a sponge during that fight, too?

[granberry]

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Ray Arcel... Granberry, do you know anything about Arcel?

One point on Steward and Hearns in the Leonard fight... I once saw an interview with Steward in which he admits that Hearns overtrained for the Leonard fight, but claims that it was Hearns' doing. Steward said that Tommy would not stop running and doing extra exercise when out of the gym.

I don't know if it's true or not but that's what he said in the interview. I'm not defending Steward either, just putting it out there.

Steward is a scumbag.

He is LYING.

It was Steward who had Hearns sparring TWELVE rounds in workouts before the first Leonard fight.

And Steward was bragging about it.

I was told that by a clueless boxing manager in a city a thousand miles away from Detroit.

That evoked the disastrous example of Gil Turner before his title shot against Kid Gavilan. Turner sparred over ten rounds at a time in the gym leading up to his title shot and left too much in the gym. He was stopped by Gavilan in a late round after running out of gas.

Hearns was so overtrained and dehydrated (he weighed in for the fight at 145) that he was not sweating during the fight.

Steward deserves a swift kick in the rear for his disastrous "training" of Hearns for that important fight.

And during the fight Steward showed his total incompetence when Leonard had a completely closed eye and Hearns never stepped to that side--where he could have hit Leonard at will.

Amateur hour all around.

. . .

I have no use for Arcel after he and Freddie Brown disgraced themselves by being in Duran's corner for the Leonard-Duran fake (#2).

[ebeneezer]

Granberry - do you post on youtube under the name of Marcxopoco?

I ask this because this because his patently ridiculous conspiracy theories about the fight between Gerry Cooney and Jimmy Young being a fix looks an awful lot like yours.


marcxopoco (1 day ago)
Reply | Spam
"Young had no defense in this FAKE. Young stood directlly in front of Cooney and let Cooney hit him to the head a body. Young NEVER fought l;ike that. This was a Don King FAKE. The fight also showed Cooney could not punch on a big league level, since he never shook Young. Anyone who thinks this "fight" was on the level is clueless when it comes to boxing."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJo5qu_hJfM

[granberry]

Granberry - do you post on youtube under the name of Marcxopoco?

I ask this because this because his patently ridiculous conspiracy theories about the fight between Gerry Cooney and Jimmy Young being a fix looks an awful lot like yours.


marcxopoco (1 day ago)
Reply | Spam
"Young had no defense in this FAKE. Young stood directlly in front of Cooney and let Cooney hit him to the head a body. Young NEVER fought l;ike that. This was a Don King FAKE. The fight also showed Cooney could not punch on a big league level, since he never shook Young. Anyone who thinks this "fight" was on the level is clueless when it comes to boxing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJo5qu_hJfM

There is nothing ridiculous about that post.

Everyone around Frazier's gym knew Young did not train for that fight.
He did no sparring and hardly showed up at the gym (maybe once to exercise a little) during the last two weeks before that bout.

And Blinky Palermo had no effect on Young's actions. Of course not.
Blinky was just a sweet old man who liked to hang around the gym sometimes because he had nothing better to do.


I have a suggestion for you, ebeneezer:

If you do not like such posts, why don't you get together with Thomas Hauser and Don King and contact GOOGLE (the owners of youtube) and demand that poster be banned from youtube.

The owners of GOOGLE are rabid leftwingers and may well jump at your suggestion.

After all, we know how upsetting it is for true believers like yourself to come across ANYTHING that doesn't toe the standard agenda driven line.

[I Feel Fine]

So, granberry, you're saying that when Young loses to Cooney, we should be mindful that Young was out of shape and didn't normally fight that way, and should not take that to mean that Cooney would have beaten a better version of Young, and yet when...

Oh, nevermind.

[BoxBuzz]

Granberry - do you post on youtube under the name of Marcxopoco?

I ask this because this because his patently ridiculous conspiracy theories about the fight between Gerry Cooney and Jimmy Young being a fix looks an awful lot like yours.


marcxopoco (1 day ago)
Reply | Spam
"Young had no defense in this FAKE. Young stood directlly in front of Cooney and let Cooney hit him to the head a body. Young NEVER fought l;ike that. This was a Don King FAKE. The fight also showed Cooney could not punch on a big league level, since he never shook Young. Anyone who thinks this "fight" was on the level is clueless when it comes to boxing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJo5qu_hJfM

There is nothing ridiculous about that post.

Everyone around Frazier's gym knew Young did not train for that fight.
He did no sparring and hardly showed up at the gym (maybe once to exercise a little) during the last two weeks before that bout.

And Blinky Palermo had no effect on Young's actions. Of course not.
Blinky was just a sweet old man who liked to hang around the gym sometimes because he had nothing better to do.


I have a suggestion for you, ebeneezer:

If you do not like such posts, why don't you get together with Thomas Hauser and Don King and contact GOOGLE (the owners of youtube) and demand that poster be banned from youtube.

The owners of GOOGLE are rabid leftwingers and may well jump at your suggestion.

After all, we know how upsetting it is for true believers like yourself to come across ANYTHING that doesn't toe the standard agenda driven line.

I think that granberryspeak for "yes".

[granberry]

So, granberry, you're saying that when Young loses to Cooney, we should be mindful that Young was out of shape and didn't normally fight that way, and should not take that to mean that Cooney would have beaten a better version of Young, and yet when...

Oh, nevermind.

Ali tried like hell to beat Young.

He threw as many jabs and right hands (or more) than he did in any fight he had.

And he missed every one. Many by a foot to a foot and a half.

But he was trying like hell to win. He was desperate.

After the fight he and Dundee and Bundini stood in the corner as they waited for the decision with their heads hanging like little kids who knew they had done something they were about to be chastened for.

In comparison Young did not try to do anything against Cooney except stand right in front of Cooney and let a fighter as inept as Cooney hit him continuously.

As the youtube poster says, Young's 'performance' was so phoney that it would take someone who never saw Young fight (or a member of the Cooney is one of the best of "all time" like certified idiot Herbert Goldman) to think that Young, who had boxed Ali silly and beaten Foreman and Lyle twice, would be so totally inept against a second-rater like Cooney.

Look at Young's 'performance' against Greg Page. In twelve rounds, Young threw one right hand -- in the 12th and final round.

Why? Because Don King (just as he did with dozens of others poor souls) said Young "owed" him hundreds of thousands of dollars

and that the Page fight would reduce the "debt" on paper while Young got nothing.

For what was left of the mentality of Young at that point his reaction was to show up in the ring---but not to fight--since he wasn't getting paid.

That was obvious.

The Cooney fight was worse. It was an obvious phoney on Young's part.

Why weren't the regular cornermen from Philly in Young's corner for the sham with Cooney?

Why was Eddie Futch in Young's corner?

Futch was never in Young's corner for any other fight.

The fact that Futch was in Young's corner ONLY for that fight stunk to high heavens.

Futch was the tip of the iceberg who was sent to work for the overall promotion and keep the agenda in place.

The Don Kings and his herd of paid off "news" men make a living selling their garbage to devout "believers" like buzz and company.

[BoxBuzz]

I know you believe this stuff, but it's just too conspiratorial to have real merit. You have an agenda and are using all your knowledge of the sport to wield an alternate vision.

It is customary to allow facts to lead you to conclusions.. In your case you have the conclusion and then go back to find facts (though mostly factoids) to support your already drawn assumptions.

You are as compelling a spin meister as has ever appeared here. But for the most part your good mechanical knowledge is buried under an avalanche of self serving pre concieved notions, inuendos, misplaced passion, anger and willingness to compromise those things which you know to be true for those things you wish to be true.

The very definition of a shill.

You could market your story for a very compelling Docu-Drama in the spirit of an Oliver Stone film. I really think there is money in this for you. It's certainly could be considered a lot more entertaining than the simple and (for the most part) more boring facts of these matters.

[granberry]

I know you believe this stuff, but it's just too conspiratorial to have real merit. You have an agenda and are using all your knowledge of the sport to wield an alternate vision.

It is customary to allow facts to lead you to conclusions.. In your case you have the conclusion and then go back to find facts (though mostly factoids) to support your already drawn assumptions.

You are as compelling a spin meister as has ever appeared here. But for the most part your good mechanical knowledge is buried under an avalanche of self serving pre concieved notions, inuendos, misplaced passion, anger and willingness to compromise those things which you know to be true for those things you wish to be true.

The very definition of a shill.

You could market your story for a very compelling Docu-Drama in the spirit of an Oliver Stone film. I really think there is money in this for you. It's certainly could be considered a lot more entertaining than the simple and (for the most part) more boring facts of these matters.

Poor buzz can't face it.

His whole world is built on the sham of the clueless Don King news media stooges and the crap they churn out.

buzz knows zero about boxing, so he is totally blind what is perfectly seeable to anyone with a background in the subject.

As far as the buzz's of the world know:

Don King is completely honest.

Fights are completely on the level.

Boxing judges are full of integrity and score fights solely on what goes on in the ring.

Fighters are not manipulated by the forces around them.

And of course, MOST IMPORTANT--

WHATEVER Thomas Hauser, Bert Sugar, Herbert Goldman, Nigel Collins, Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee and company say or write

is the gospel TRUTH.

Anyone who says otherwise is a dastardly villain.

[ebeneezer]

The Cooney fight was worse. It was an obvious phoney on Young's part.

If it was a fix then why did Young stand and allow his face to get ripped to pieces instead of simply going down and taking a count?

I love how you keep ignoring this crucial point

[granberry]

The Cooney fight was worse. It was an obvious phoney on Young's part.

If it was a fix then why did Young stand and allow his face to get ripped to pieces instead of simply going down and taking a count?

I love how you keep ignoring this crucial point

Poor dim-witted ebeneezzer never heard of the Jake-LaMotta-Billy Fox fight--an admitted fix.

Did LaMotta go down and take a count?

Tell us all about it, halfwit.

[ebeneezer]

The Cooney fight was worse. It was an obvious phoney on Young's part.

If it was a fix then why did Young stand and allow his face to get ripped to pieces instead of simply going down and taking a count?

I love how you keep ignoring this crucial point

Poor dim-witted ebeneezzer never heard of the Jake-LaMotta-Billy Fox fight--an admitted fix.

Did LaMotta go down and take a count?

Tell us all about it, halfwit.

Did LaMotta have his cut eye as severely as Young did?

[ebeneezer]

Why was Eddie Futch in Young's corner?

Futch was never in Young's corner for any other fight.

The fact that Futch was in Young's corner ONLY for that fight stunk to high heavens.

Futch was the tip of the iceberg who was sent to work for the overall promotion and keep the agenda in place.

The Don Kings and his herd of paid off "news" men make a living selling their garbage to devout "believers" like buzz and company.

[BoxBuzz]

Don's career and Ali's career do not perfectly match up time wise.....or did Ali lose all his abilities upon their joint venturing?

I certainly know about fixes....let's talk Primo Carnera...

And this sort of Carnera nonsense certainly continued...however I simply disagree that they continued in just the manner that you have prescribed. Or to the degree at the top of the food chain that you suggest. Too many egos in the mix and secrets just can't be kept that well. But these stories do make your knowledge enticing, dramatic and exciting and creates importance as to your role in it all. My guess? Is that perhaps one of these stories is absolute godspell. That's how the great spin meisters weave their "docudrama" magic. Mixing 12% percent truth with 88% creative licence.

And true or not it is INDEED marketable.

granberry? or grassyknollberry?

[DaveV17]

delete

[Collins2000]

Two different perspectives.

Granberry is a boxing insider, the type one meets in boxing gyms at small club shows, and at big fights. He is not the type who gets interviewed by HBO, but he knows boxing and he knows the stories and rumors behind most fights that are not written about in boxing magazines or books.

Most message board posters are knowledgeable of boxing history and they read about boxing but most never talk to anyone on the inside. Reading the boxing mags and books is good too, but no substitute for talking to the guys like Granberry. Take advantage of his knowledge. This board is fortunate to have him, he is a great boxing resource.

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is NO one here, apart from a couple of gullible wannabe drama queens, believe any of his stories.

So either everyone here knows NOTHING about boxing or granberry is wrong.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Two different perspectives.

Granberry is a boxing insider, the type one meets in boxing gyms at small club shows, and at big fights. He is not the type who gets interviewed by HBO, but he knows boxing and he knows the stories and rumors behind most fights that are not written about in boxing magazines or books.

Most message board posters are knowledgeable of boxing history and they read about boxing but most never talk to anyone on the inside. Reading the boxing mags and books is good too, but no substitute for talking to the guys like Granberry. Take advantage of his knowledge. This board is fortunate to have him, he is a great boxing resource.

Where is the evidence of this? & if this is so, what does it amount to when such a person is willing to give themselves over to the folly of bias so utterly, as is our Gran? As for, "knowing the stories & rumours" that amounts to very little, if it is even true.

Personally, I didn't enjoy Gran at first, but I've started to come around. Of course, as he well knows, his takes are hopelessly slanted, & while he's no Michael Matos with his knowledge (Who is?) I like him. I don't think he likes me, however :)

[BoxBuzz]

Two different perspectives.

Granberry is a boxing insider, the type one meets in boxing gyms at small club shows, and at big fights. He is not the type who gets interviewed by HBO, but he knows boxing and he knows the stories and rumors behind most fights that are not written about in boxing magazines or books.

Most message board posters are knowledgeable of boxing history and they read about boxing but most never talk to anyone on the inside. Reading the boxing mags and books is good too, but no substitute for talking to the guys like Granberry. Take advantage of his knowledge. This board is fortunate to have him, he is a great boxing resource.

Where is the evidence of this? & if this is so, what does it amount to when such a person is willing to give themselves over to the folly of bias so utterly, as is our Gran? As for, "knowing the stories & rumours" that amounts to very little, if it is even true.

Personally, I didn't enjoy Gran at first, but I've started to come around. Of course, as he well knows, his takes are hopelessly slanted, & while he's no Michael Matos with his knowledge (Who is?) I like him. I don't think he likes me, however :)

I think he likes you just fine. I'm not talking Brokeback Mountain style....I just think he likes to have someone to shoot the sh*t with now and again.

[granberry]

Dave,

Clowns like buzz and irene are equal to

idiots who can't identify the numbers 0 to 9,

but who pretend to discuss 'mathematics.'

Leave them to their charade.

[ebeneezer]

If the fight was a fix then why would Young stand and allow get his face torn up and risk losing his eye?

Please answer oh all knowing dingleberry.