What, would you say Gran, happened when Frazier & Spinks got the nod over Ali? What went wrong? Were the two fighters in question just too convincing?
That hardly seems likely, given Norton's clear victory over Ali in their last fight, or Young's performance. What really happened those nights, in your opinion?
Fighters who had another Fighter's "Number"
I was at that 3rd Ali Norton fight, it was worst robbery I ever saw, and I've seen a few. Ali had it going for himself with judges and promoters, they did not want him to lose because of money he bought in.Goodnight, Irene wrote:What, would you say Gran, happened when Frazier & Spinks got the nod over Ali? What went wrong? Were the two fighters in question just too convincing?
That hardly seems likely, given Norton's clear victory over Ali in their last fight, or Young's performance. What really happened those nights, in your opinion?
I was at that Jimmy Young-Ali fight, it was worst robbery I ever saw, and I've seen a few. Ali had it going for himself with judges and promoters, they did not want him to lose because of money he brought in.Jiggs wrote:
I was at that 3rd Ali Norton fight, it was worst robbery I ever saw, and I've seen a few. Ali had it going for himself with judges and promoters, they did not want him to lose because of money he bought in.
Granberry and Jiggs are right about Ali being the attraction and as the attraction he would not lose a decisiion. Ali never threw caurtion to the wind at the end of a fight when he was losing. He knew that if he remained standing, the decision was his. Even when trailing late in a fight he held and stalled, he didn't swing for the fences. That is probably one of the secrets to Ali's supposedly great chin, he didn't have to expose himself as others did when the going got tough. A clutching defensive minded fighter is hard to knock out.
Ali was floored by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks early in his career but his chin got better later? Maybe, or maybe he just didn't have to take any chances later.
Ali was floored by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks early in his career but his chin got better later? Maybe, or maybe he just didn't have to take any chances later.
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Goodnight, Irene
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Not saying Ali could or couldn't take a shot. Not saying whether boxing was right or wrong for giving Ali the decisions. Afterall, the promoters and everyone involved wanted to make the most money possible and Ali attracted the people to boxing who knew nothing about boxing. Those people bought tickets too.
Merely pointing out that Ali got to play the game by different rules.
When a boxer can stay in his game (Ali's game was holding, stalling) even when behind in a fight, it is not likely the boxer will be knocked out. Ali had all of the advantages when he fought. Those advantages diminish Ali's legacy.
Merely pointing out that Ali got to play the game by different rules.
When a boxer can stay in his game (Ali's game was holding, stalling) even when behind in a fight, it is not likely the boxer will be knocked out. Ali had all of the advantages when he fought. Those advantages diminish Ali's legacy.
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I Feel Fine
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All top fighters get breaks at the end of their careers. I was just saying in the other thread how Holmes got bullshit decisions against Witherspoon and Williams. Louis had Walcott. Holyfield had the Lewis draw. You people act like this is something exclusive to Ali. He got two gifts in his career, and they came when he was a shot fighter. He also lost four decisions in his career, as goodnight alluded to, but unfortunately the conspiracy theorists don't like to mention that because it hurts their talking points.
Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY over the posts here.I Feel Fine wrote:All top fighters get breaks at the end of their careers. I was just saying in the other thread how Holmes got bullshit decisions against Witherspoon and Williams. Louis had Walcott. Holyfield had the Lewis draw. You people act like this is something exclusive to Ali. He got two gifts in his career, and they came when he was a shot fighter. He also lost four decisions in his career, as goodnight alluded to, but unfortunately the conspiracy theorists don't like to mention that because it hurts their talking points.
Ali's career was a farce.
He lost to Doug Jones and was awarded a "win."
He lost to Jimmy Young and was awarded a "win."
Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back--and according to the media it never happened.
Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven fights (Leon Spinks).
Ali struggled for 39 rounds with mediocrity Ken Norton and still hasn't beaten Norton.
Ali won his title on obvious fixes with Liston.
Ali needed extra time between rounds after 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked him down.
The second "fight" with Spinks was an obvious phoney, with Spinks showing up drugged and disoriented.
Yeah--What a career this mediocrity had.
C'mon quit holding backgranberry wrote:Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY over the posts here.I Feel Fine wrote:All top fighters get breaks at the end of their careers. I was just saying in the other thread how Holmes got bullshit decisions against Witherspoon and Williams. Louis had Walcott. Holyfield had the Lewis draw. You people act like this is something exclusive to Ali. He got two gifts in his career, and they came when he was a shot fighter. He also lost four decisions in his career, as goodnight alluded to, but unfortunately the conspiracy theorists don't like to mention that because it hurts their talking points.
Ali's career was a farce.
He lost to Doug Jones and was awarded a "win."
He lost to Jimmy Young and was awarded a "win."
Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back--and according to the media it never happened.
Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven fights (Leon Spinks).
Ali struggled for 39 rounds with mediocrity Ken Norton and still hasn't beaten Norton.
Ali won his title on obvious fixes with Liston.
Ali needed extra time between rounds after 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked him down.
The second "fight" with Spinks was an obvious phoney, with Spinks showing up drugged and disoriented.
Yeah--What a career this mediocrity had.
You completely forgot to mention that Cleveland Williams came in on crutches....and No mention that Ali couldn't KO Terrel? And that he was one round from losing the Thrilla in Manilla to Frazier when Futch betrayed Joe and gave the fight to Ali? Not to mention the robbery of the second Ali Frazier fight where Joe was robbed?
And he never tossed that medal into the river...Why? Because he never really won it in the first place!
Turns out You ain't nothing more than another one of those Ali shills.
Ali certainly never had a close fight with Ken Norton and he won very few rounds. Norton dominated Ali in the ring, yet Ali got 2 decisions over the deserving Norton. There were others fights for Ali such as Young, Shavers, Spinks 2, Frazier 2, Evangelista, that Ali would have lost if he was not Ali.
Ali was allowed to hold and stall throughout his career. He was not penalized for those tactics as other fighters would have been. He was an attraction that bought people to boxing who normally would not have watched boxing so he was allowed to play the game by different rules. The favortism shown to Ali affects his legacy.
Ali was allowed to hold and stall throughout his career. He was not penalized for those tactics as other fighters would have been. He was an attraction that bought people to boxing who normally would not have watched boxing so he was allowed to play the game by different rules. The favortism shown to Ali affects his legacy.
Last edited by John Galt on 31 Jan 2008, 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
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elmersalsa
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elmersalsa
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You hit right on the nail, baby.John Galt wrote:Ali certainly never had a close fight with Ken Norton and he won very few rounds. Norton dominated Ali in the ring, yet Ali got 2 decisions over the deserving Norton. There were others fights for Ali such as Young, Shavers, Spinks 2, Frazier 2, Evangelista, that Ali would have lost if he was not Ali.
Ali was allowed to hold and stall throughout his career. He was not penalized for those tactics as other fighters would have been. He was an attraction that bought people to boxing who normally would not have watched boxing so he was allowed to play the game by different rules. The favortism shown to Ali either affects his legacy.
Ali was one of my favorite fighters, but he ahd too much leeway from the judges all the way to the fans, boxing commisions and promoters...How can he lose? He is the MONEY MAN.Paret won the second fight with Griffith clearly.elmersalsa wrote:Emile Griffith CLEARLY had Benny "Kid" Paret's number...I don't know what the judges saw in the second fight, Griffith won that one and got screwed....To me, Griffith won the 3 fights against Paret.
Rafael Herrera had Ruben Olivares' number..Ruben just could not beat him.
He was breaking Griffith in half with a lightning fast right hand to the body from long range.
Griffith was under such pressure he got more and more ragged as the fight went on.
In one later round Paret nailed Griffith as Griffith came forward while Paret's back was on the ropes. Griffith kept from going down by grabbing Paret desperately around the waist.
After the fight was over, before the decision was given, Don Dunphy, who was not partial to Paret, said, "There's the champion, Griffith, in his corner awaiting the decision. Or at least he is until the decision."
In the third fight Paret floored Griffith with a left hook. Griffith went down like he was hit by a heavyweight. It was good luck for Griffith and bad luck for Paret that that knockdown came at the very end of the round.
In the first fight Griffith was doing so badly that Gil Clancy had to slap Griffith's face in the corner and demand that he start doing better.
It's easy to be glib, isn't it Elmer.
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I Feel Fine
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I wonder if Dave is using another SN... Norton won every round of their trilogy, Evangelista beat Ali. The only person I've ever heard claim that is Dave. I doubt even granberry would go that far. Then again...
Basically, every time Ali gets a close decision a small group of people will call it a robbery. Or the same two people will call it a robbery, but will do it under multiple screen names. The claim is that Ali got lots of decisions that shouldn't have gone his way but did because he was Ali... well, yeah, that logic works when you intentionally score every fight for Ali's opponent and then cry foul. But, as I said earlier, I think all one can claim is that Ali got two gifts in his career. There were three fights he won that I thought he should have lost, but in the case of the Shavers fight I think it was too close to call a robbery.
And, as mentioned, its also hard to cry conspiracy when he lost four decisions. Some of you seem to think he should have lost twelve or thirteen decisions, but not many are going to go along with you on that.
And since this conversation isn't the point of this thread, that's the last I'll speak of it in here.
Basically, every time Ali gets a close decision a small group of people will call it a robbery. Or the same two people will call it a robbery, but will do it under multiple screen names. The claim is that Ali got lots of decisions that shouldn't have gone his way but did because he was Ali... well, yeah, that logic works when you intentionally score every fight for Ali's opponent and then cry foul. But, as I said earlier, I think all one can claim is that Ali got two gifts in his career. There were three fights he won that I thought he should have lost, but in the case of the Shavers fight I think it was too close to call a robbery.
And, as mentioned, its also hard to cry conspiracy when he lost four decisions. Some of you seem to think he should have lost twelve or thirteen decisions, but not many are going to go along with you on that.
And since this conversation isn't the point of this thread, that's the last I'll speak of it in here.
I Feel Fine wrote:I wonder if Dave is using another SN... Norton won every round of their trilogy, Evangelista beat Ali. The only person I've ever heard claim that is Dave. I doubt even granberry would go that far. Then again...
Basically, every time Ali gets a close decision a small group of people will call it a robbery. Or the same two people will call it a robbery, but will do it under multiple screen names. The claim is that Ali got lots of decisions that shouldn't have gone his way but did because he was Ali... well, yeah, that logic works when you intentionally score every fight for Ali's opponent and then cry foul. But, as I said earlier, I think all one can claim is that Ali got two gifts in his career. There were three fights he won that I thought he should have lost, but in the case of the Shavers fight I think it was too close to call a robbery.
And, as mentioned, its also hard to cry conspiracy when he lost four decisions. Some of you seem to think he should have lost twelve or thirteen decisions, but not many are going to go along with you on that.
And since this conversation isn't the point of this thread, that's the last I'll speak of it in here.
Remember, ifeelfine,
It is a conspiracy if anyone mentions that Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson, that Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back, that Henry Cooper knocked Ali down, that Ali got beaten up by Doug Jones, that Ali lost to novice Leon Spinks, etc etc etc
No one should be allowed to utter such blasphemies.
.
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I Feel Fine
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Frazier knocked Ali down, yes. And Ali knocked Frazier out. Jones didn't beat Ali, unless you score points for crowd support and for being the hometown underdog against the "loud mouthed" fighter. Louis got knocked down nine times in his career, a couple of times against fighters as limited as Cooper, and when he was champion. He was also out on his feet against feather fisted Light Heavyweight Billy Conn. Do we believe a 25 year old Ali would have lost to Young or Spinks?
Not blasphemous, just irrelevant.
Not blasphemous, just irrelevant.
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Collins2000
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Goodnight, Irene
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Goodnight, Irene
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Billy Conn wasen't a big puncher, but he certainly wasen't feather fisted either. In the earlier eras you just can't judge fighters by their KO percentage, because their are too many intangibles to consider. For one thing, Conn regularly fought solid opposition, so their's no way he'd have an impressive number of KO's.
And of course many of us Ali "shills" think that Ali's performance in the wake of that devastating left hook is almost equal in it's remarkable nature as the KD itself. That shot would have put almost any other heavyweight in history both DOWN and OUT.Terry D wrote:I think Ali had the number of Grandaddy's wife. That explains a lot.
The Frazier left hook is replayed over and over again. Hardly buried history.
IMHO.
Hell I almost wish it would have, so granberry could sleep better at night.
The currently active members of the Religion of Ali (buzz, Irene, ifeelfine) have their panties in a snit.
Remember, halfwits, as you genuflect every morning at the Shrine of Ali,
repeat at least 50 times:
It is a conspiracy if anyone mentions that Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson, that Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back, that Henry Cooper knocked Ali down, that Ali got beaten up by Doug Jones, that Ali lost to novice Leon Spinks, etc etc etc
No one should be allowed to utter such blasphemies.
To assuage the agony you feel every time you come across
anything less than absolute genuflection for your exalted Ali,
you may also set aside times later in the day to repeat defenses against such blasphemies to your Religion.
Crawl on the ground and lick the floor with your tongues for your Ali, halfwits.
Remember, halfwits, as you genuflect every morning at the Shrine of Ali,
repeat at least 50 times:
It is a conspiracy if anyone mentions that Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson, that Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back, that Henry Cooper knocked Ali down, that Ali got beaten up by Doug Jones, that Ali lost to novice Leon Spinks, etc etc etc
No one should be allowed to utter such blasphemies.
To assuage the agony you feel every time you come across
anything less than absolute genuflection for your exalted Ali,
you may also set aside times later in the day to repeat defenses against such blasphemies to your Religion.
Crawl on the ground and lick the floor with your tongues for your Ali, halfwits.