ali-johansson

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 04 Feb 2008, 18:24

is there any film of the two rounds they sparred back when Ali was 4-0 and Johansson was in line for his rubber match with Patterson?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 Feb 2008, 18:51

You do hear alot about this sparring session. I think on an Ali doco there was something like maybe 10 sec of Ali and Ingo. I would love to see the footage and see if Ali did as well as many people boast he did.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 04 Feb 2008, 18:55

im sure it would be a good watch have heard about it but i can remember what i heard.... can anybody fill me in?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:01

Robinson wrote:You do hear alot about this sparring session. I think on an Ali doco there was something like maybe 10 sec of Ali and Ingo. I would love to see the footage and see if Ali did as well as many people boast he did.

Of course he didn't. Its a conspiracy. Johannson walked out of the ring because he didn't want to hurt Ali. As granberry would say, anyone with a good right hand could beat Ali. Anyone.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:04

I Feel Fine wrote:
Robinson wrote:You do hear alot about this sparring session. I think on an Ali doco there was something like maybe 10 sec of Ali and Ingo. I would love to see the footage and see if Ali did as well as many people boast he did.
Of course he didn't. Its a conspiracy. Johannson walked out of the ring because he didn't want to hurt Ali. As granberry would say, anyone with a good right hand could beat Ali. Anyone.

Hmmm Did he really say that? The forensic empirical evidence would support a case for him being more vulnerable to the left hook wouldn't it?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:08

Granberry said it was the right hand, so its right hand. He's the expert, damnit.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:50

BoxBuzz wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
Robinson wrote:You do hear alot about this sparring session. I think on an Ali doco there was something like maybe 10 sec of Ali and Ingo. I would love to see the footage and see if Ali did as well as many people boast he did.
Of course he didn't. Its a conspiracy. Johannson walked out of the ring because he didn't want to hurt Ali. As granberry would say, anyone with a good right hand could beat Ali. Anyone.

Hmmm Did he really say that? The forensic empirical evidence would support a case for him being more vulnerable to the left hook wouldn't it?

Doug Jones staggered Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into their fight.

Jimmy Young hit Ali with right hand leads all night long.

Johannson had a better right hand than Jones or Young.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:53

Damn straight

Foreman and Shavers had weak right hands, after all. They didn't hit harder than Ingo. It's all a hoax, Clay could never out do Johannson.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:55

i remember marciano said he wanted to make a comeback and fight johannson coz he wasnt very skilled

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:59

The members of The Religion of Ali are frantic when anyone contradicts their Religion of Ali talking points.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:10

^^^^ do ya reckon you could stop sounding like a broken record for just a couple of mins

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:16

Marciano didnt use those words concerning Ingemar Johansson, what he said was he felt Johansson fought like an amateur, and besides Johansson was a bit cocky and arrogant himself always stating that nobody could stand up to his right hand when it landed flush on their chin. Marciao had all respect for Patterson, but for Johansson he didn't, at least not at first. They would later become friends.

Way I heard the Ali-Johansson sparring session went was that Johansson came in to train, and there was no sparring partners there, but the young Olympic gold medalist Cassius Clay (who was 4-0 at the time) did stop by and offered to spar with Johansson.

What happened next evidentially was shocking as Johansson was a former champion and was getting ready for his rubber match with Patterson, but couldn't land a single effective blow on Clay, and the up and comer started bad mouthing Johansson saying that he should be fighting Patterson and not Ingo.

Ingo's handlers seen enough and called it off after the second round of sparring.

Least that's how its went down in the history books...but I have always heard that film of this did exist at least at one time, and in all my years have never seen it...I would find it somewhat hard to believe that a guy 4-0, let alone with Olympic credentials, would have been good enough to have won anything over a still in his prime top contender/ex champion.

Had Johansson and Clay fought for keeps, I think Johansson would have eventually caught up to him and would have knocked him out in six or so rounds. If Banks was able to knock Ali down, sometime after this encounter, then it just shows me that had it not been some two round sideshow act, Ali would have been in trouble.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:19

Olympians are different from other fighters, they're usually pretty good early on. Obviously this doesn't apply to all of them, but I think Mayweather, against a weak champion, could have won a belt in his first pro fight, for example. Or Roy Jones.

Johannson wasn't exactly Jack Dempsey, and it was only sparring.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:30

I am only looking at it in a realistic sense. Pete Rademacher was 0-0-0 as an amateur, but won Olympic gold, and he went six rounds with Patterson, who was also an Olympic medal winner. He was good enough to survive the first five rounds.

Ali was 4-0-0 as a pro and won Olympic gold. To me it means relatively nothing, he might as well still been an amateur. And people forget, Johansson was also an Olympic medalist, and he had knocked out Cooper and Machen COLD, throw in him going 1-1-0 against Patterson at the time, and his 20 or so other bouts...

I dont see Ali at that stage beating any top 10 contender, let alone Johansson or Patterson.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:33

I don't disagree. If it were a 10 round fight, it might be a different story.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:42

When I get home I am going to look for the doco and see if there is any film of it. Or if its just Ali sparring.

I always felt that it seemed more legend than anything else. BUT. If Ingo was looking to get some rounds in and spar. And Clay came out fast and zippy it could take a round to get adjusted to some one like that.

Ino was never going to be histories best HW but he was still good enough to make it to the top ten among his contemporaries and good enough to beat the Champ. And I feel he has become a sacrificial lamb in the rise of Clay's baloon.

Kym

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:51

There are those who may disagree but I think you can take a tremendous amateur and put him in sparring with a real good pro and he might do real well....for a couple rounds.
Two differint mind sets .
After only a few pro fights, Clay is still thinking about getting a real fast start.
Ingo a seasoned pro is used to takin his time , look for an opening , shake out a little rust , get some rounds in.
I dont think too much should be made out of this (if it even went down like this) or really most sparring sessions.It aint a real fight.
If someone said Clay beat the shit out of him in the gym for ten rounds, then wed have something to talk about.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 Feb 2008, 21:00

The 'source' of this crap is Ali shill Angelo Dundee.

Enough said.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 Feb 2008, 21:04

On top of that its just a round. hardly something worth building a reputation on. But it has served Ali well and has almost gone in to Folklore.

Id say Ingo was looking for some rounds, but if Ali did start speaking jive then it is likely Ingo's guys didnt want him to mix it up and risk exertion or injury for the sake of pride.

And like the Pug above says you have two different mentalities an in and out amateur point style versus a steady 'bigger picture' pro who knows he has fire power in his hands.

Ironically Ali himself would look painful in sparring and exhibitions against amateurs and journeymen alike. Yet this is ok, because he is 'punishing himself'.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Feb 2008, 21:13

Expug wrote:There are those who may disagree but I think you can take a tremendous amateur and put him in sparring with a real good pro and he might do real well....for a couple rounds.
Two differint mind sets .
After only a few pro fights, Clay is still thinking about getting a real fast start.
Ingo a seasoned pro is used to takin his time , look for an opening , shake out a little rust , get some rounds in.
I dont think too much should be made out of this (if it even went down like this) or really most sparring sessions.It aint a real fight.
If someone said Clay beat the shit out of him in the gym for ten rounds, then wed have something to talk about.

Exactly.

Thunder and Lightning · Post by **Thunder and Lightning** » 05 Feb 2008, 04:17

this site has the footage
http://www.sweetfights.com/fighter_01_ali.html

In Ingos biography he speaks about this encounter and in his words Ali was a horrible sparring partner and only ran away the entire time wich is very probable since that was part of Alis style, another thing Johansson wrote wich surprised me was that Dundee was at ringside yelling at Johansson not to throw the right hand, I don't know if that's true or not but it is possible Dundee wanted to protect his heavyweight prospect, so Johansson called it of because he couldn't work with Ali as a sparring and the media blew it up to be more than it was and Ali said that with one more round he would've KOed Johansson this was Johanssons side of the story.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 05 Feb 2008, 04:29

There are still people out there who take something from this, seriously. People who believe a 4-0 Clay would've defeated not just Johansson, but Patterson as well. In 1961!

Both of those guys would have KO'd Clay at that time. Badly.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 Feb 2008, 18:28

But in an Ali documentary it said otherwise!!

Heaven forbid.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 05 Feb 2008, 18:51

Thanks Thunder and Lightning for the clip and info

is greatly appreciated

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 Feb 2008, 18:59

Thanks for the URL