Ingemar Johansson is a non person today.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 07 Feb 2008, 11:54

Ingemar Johansson is a non person today.

He doesn't exist.

WHY?

Because he doesn't fit into the Ken Burns agenda.

Wrong pigmentation.

He has nothing to offer in the way of the promoting of the massive politically correct media agenda in force today.

Johansson was VERY good when he knocked out Eddie Machen in ONE ROUND (a total shocker) and then knocked out heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in three rounds with the exact same punch.

Against Patterson the first time Johannson was terrific.

He was fast, light on his feet, anticipated every forward move by Patterson, and frustrated everything Patterson tried.
He kept Patterson occupied with his constant left jab.

He was waiting and waiting for the right opportunity for his right hand.

Patterson would crouch--and then come up from the crouch.

Johansson watched and watched to take advantage of that.

In the third round Patterson, in front of Johansson, lowered himself into the crouch, Johansson reached out with his left hand to Patterson's shoulder as a locater, and then, just as Patterson started coming up slightly, let his right hand go.

Johansson threw his right hand very easily, deceptively, with his full power into it. He had very strong legs and got them completely into the punch.

In the Machen fight, Machen was catapulted straight back onto his back for each of the first two knockdowns.

The last knockdown on the ropes that was allowed by the hometown referee should never have been allowed to go that far. Machen was lucky he escaped without any brain damage.

In the first knockdown in the first Patterson-Johansson fight, Patterson was catapulted backwards onto his back exactly the way Machen had been. Johansson was a little sloppy following up and it is interesting to see Patterson's fighting spirit as he fought back, even though he didn't know where he was.

I have a film of that fight with Don Dunphy's radio commentary laid over the film. It is very interesting to hear how superior Dunphy was in comparison to the insanity that passes for boxing 'commentary' since.

Dunphy very calmly and effortlessly gave the number of each knockdown as he described the action. "That's the fifth knockdown," etc.

For that fight Johansson was a terrific fighter. Very cool, light on his feet, completely frustrating his opponent, and perfectly using his opponent's style to land his payoff punch.

Johansson's right hand was very deceptive and quickly thrown. It would have been dangerous to any fighter.

In the second Patterson-Johansson fight, Patterson changed his style to punching with his HEAVIEST punches every moment, in an effort to keep Johansson harassed and off balance every moment and not in a position to get set and have his wits about him. In this second fight Patterson's main punch was a left hook to the solar plexus, which he was very accurate with. He followed it with a powerful short chopping right hand to the head, which he missed for the first rounds. But he kept the same thing going continually.

Patterson's first punch of the fight was a hard left hook, which he missed badly and fell off balance from. But it served notice to Johansson from the very start that he was in big danger and under duress. Johansson tried to follow up when Patterson went off balance after missing that first punch but he was too far away and not quick enough.

After a few rounds not only the left to the solar plexus, but the heavy right hand started to land for Patterson ( at least partially). That led to the end of the fight.

Johansson was not in the physical condition he showed up in for the first fight, and Patterson's fight plan won the fight for him. That was only fight Patterson looked like a top level fighter since his KOing of Archie Moore with a lighting left hook from the twilight zone (a punch nobody can see) to win the vacant title and his first title defense, where he looked terrific against Hurricane Jackson.

After his first title defense against Hurricane Jackson, Patterson's performances went way downhill as his manager Cus D'Amato refused to let him fight the top challengers (Machen and Folley) and Patterson shifted from his earlier lightning fast hands style to standing around and punching less, like a typical heavyweight.

For his fights after he lost the title to Liston, Patterson was unrecognizable as the fighter he had been in his prime, even though he knocked Henry Cooper cold in four rounds and beat Chuvalo, Bonavena, etc.

Talk about a fighter with a short prime--Johansson's lasted for two fights---Machen and the first Patterson fight. But he was a very dangerous heavyweight in those two fights, and an excellent ring general.

I read somewhere that Johansson said he was looking past his second fight with Patterson to an eventual defense against Liston, and that that cost him.

The important thing to remember about Johansson is that HE NEVER EXISTED.

He is of NO USE to the Ken Burns-Thomas Hauser media politically correct sales pitch for Ali and Jack Johnson by clueless media gasbags who don't have the slightest interest in boxing but use it for their larger politically correct agenda.

As far as I know Johansson is still alive and living in Florida from the last I heard.

When he does die, the Bert Sugars and Thomas Hausers will rush in to make sure that he is categorized as a nobody in the current politically correct sales pitch that drapes itself over boxing.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 07 Feb 2008, 12:22

"As far as I know Johansson is still alive and living in Florida from the last I heard"

He is still alive but suffers from Alzheimers. I think he still lives in Sweden but I could be wrong on that point.

I don't really understand the "Doesn't exist" comment in detail but I think I get the drift of the comment. I was a big Ingo fan in Machen/Patterson phase....good fighter, but Liston would have beaten him easily IMO.

I suppose - as far as his "legacy" is concerned - that he's seen more as the guy Patterson beat to regain the title rather than the guy who beat FP in the first place. And after the third fight with Floyd Ingo didn;t really have any big name fighters on his record....Richardson, London etc were well known in Europe but not Stateside.

J

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Feb 2008, 12:33

I'll go ahead and take the bait.

Johansson was a very good fighter. His right hand would have given any fighter problems.

However, the reason his career is not elevated historically is simply b/c it was not a great career. He won the HW championship, but also lost it quicker than any previous champion besides Marvin Hart.

Beyond the 'Tunder' sneaky right hand, he didn't really have any great atributes; fair boxing skills but nothing noteworthy, decent beard but not a great chin, his stamina really failed him in the Patterson rubber match etc..
And he ended his career looking up at the lights thanks to the completly unremarkable Brian London.

Why on Earth would Ingo receive near the accolades of Ali and Jack Johnson? What did he do which would place him up in that league? Please enlighten us.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 07 Feb 2008, 13:02

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 07 Feb 2008, 13:18

DaveV17 wrote: The "unremarkable" London went 5-3 after losing to Johanson and "earned" a title shot. Then after his title shot he was 2-6-1 for the remainder of his career. Makes me wonder who didn't get a shot at the title so that London could?

London got a title shot because (a) Ali was having difficulty staging fights in the USA at that time (he fought Cooper, London and Mildengerger in Europe in successive fights, preceded by Chuvalo in Canada) and (b) in that context while he was a "name" he posed no real threat to Ali.

London's record post-Ingo wasn't that great, and was a bit up & down - he did beat a faded Zora Folley, but London was getting past it himself by then. He could be quite good when he put his mind to it, but he could be inconsistent and disappoint just when you thought his latest "resurrection" was under way.

Cooper always had his number, but just when you thought Brian was finished he'd bounce back with a win over the likes of Walker, for example.... then as I said above, just when you thought "You know, maybe he could do it this time..." he'd fail to sparkle.

Never a dull moment with Brian London though, to be fair!

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:20

I agree that Ingo is underrated and under valued in boxing.

Wasn't the the guy who got disqualified at the olympics for not trying?

I read an account by Cooper that said Ingo's jab was weak. He described it like nothing mroe than a piece of string, byt the right hand... that was something special

barry · Post by **barry** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:32

Nothing against Ingo as he was a fine man, and he did beat a few solid contenders, but the "meat" of his career is that he beat and then twice was knocked out by Floyd Patterson and that is the range of his championship laurels...not really near the level of Ali, Johnson, Jeffries, Louis, or 50 other heavyweights. If anything he is overrated as he simply is not a Hall of Fame fighter, which that said neither is Ken Norton in my opinion, but I can think of 50 heavyweights from the past who did more in the ring who are not even in the HOF. Nothing against him personally, but his career was not HOF calibur...I mean really...what would he documentary cover...his three fights with Patterson?

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:33

granberry wrote: He is of NO USE to the Ken Burns-Thomas Hauser media politically correct sales pitch for Ali and Jack Johnson by clueless media gasbags who don't have the slightest interest in boxing but use it for their larger politically correct agenda.

What is the larger politically correct agenda?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:38

DaveV17 wrote:Dempsey wrote:
"And he ended his career looking up at the lights thanks to the completly unremarkable Brian London."

The "unremarkable" London went 5-3 after losing to Johanson and "earned" a title shot. Then after his title shot he was 2-6-1 for the remainder of his career. Makes me wonder who didn't get a shot at the title so that London could?

Oooooh, swipe at Ali, how original.

Ali was actually traveling the 'world' defending the 'world' title (Mildenberger, Cooper, London) and consequetively, beat the top Americans (Liston, Patterson, Terrell) Who was the big bad Heavyweight in 1966 that Ali was avoiding???

The bullshit never ends . . . .

barry · Post by **barry** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:39

----What is the larger politically correct agenda?----

Surely it's about proping up Ali!!!

Have you ever seen anyone so bitter, or jealous about other, more knowledgable people in the boxing community?

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:44

I'm still laughing at his ramblings about the Gerry Cooney vs Jimmy Young fight being a fix.

His "proof" is that Young stood and got hit and Cooney never hurt him despite Young almost losing his from a hideous cut that one of Cooney's hooks opened on him.

Ask him why,if it was a fix, would Young stand there and allow his face to be maimed and you'll get silence.

barry · Post by **barry** » 07 Feb 2008, 15:55

----Ask him why,if it was a fix, would Young stand there and allow his face to be maimed and you'll get silence.----

Ask him what his real name is and you will get silence as well...well you'll get insults as that seems to be the only way that he knows how to deflect questions! He likes to pretend like he is this boxing insider, but he is scared to death that someone might actually find out what his name is and then it would be evident what a fraud he is!

I mean really...how much of an insider can someone really be if they think Ali is a fraud?

Not liking Ali...thats different, but claiming his career was a fraud...well...that is just lack of knowledge about the issue!

donnellon · Post by **donnellon** » 07 Feb 2008, 17:54

Ingo's wins over Cooper, Machen, Patterson, Richardson, Erskine were excellent wins over LIVE opponents, he also carried his power late into the rounds with no stamina doubts. He was an extremely cagey fighter as he patiently set up opponents, something like the old-timers claimed of Fitz.
His stamina problems came late in his career as the partying caught up. He certainly is not over-rated, been European probably hit his profile and if anything as a peak performer, he is underated IMO.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 07 Feb 2008, 18:36

Ingo is a pretty interesting person, who is one of the HW that no one out side of Europe seems to respect.

I dont think he is a non entity, its more of a case that his career was never long enough to really have a great impact on the over all landscape of HW history.

Well written Mr Granberry.

Kym

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 07 Feb 2008, 18:53

For such a short lived champion you would think Johannson would get less attention than he does. I don't see that Johannson is ignored by people today. They acknowledge his two great wins in beating Machen and then winning the title against Patterson, and they acknowledge his great trilogy with Floyd. What more can one ask for Johannson?

Ali intended to fight Terrell in 1966 but because of his "I aint got no quarrel with them Vietcong" statement he was boycotted by American fans and had to fight abroad. When things started to die down he came back and fought better opponents. Again, the challenge is raised every so often, so the challenge needs to be answered with another challenge; name a big Heavyweight in Ali's era who he should have fought but didn't? One can raise the objection for someone like Larry Holmes who might fight two or three bums a year while there were other belts he could have went after and other names he could have fought; that objection doesn't work against Ali.

On the question of skin color; well, I won't touch on that one. I'll just give one of these;

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 07 Feb 2008, 18:58

This forum aknowledges him. BUT casual or near casual fans barely know who he is...sadly like a great many other champs.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Feb 2008, 19:01

Many people will & have disagreed with me on this, but I have always been of the opinion that, at least for combinations three & up, Patterson had faster hands than Ali.

I consider the return match with Johansson to be one of the better examples of this. After the first knockdown, but shortly prior to the knockout blow (wasn't that a tremendous left hook?) look at Patterson explode with his hands as Johansson tries to cover up. I don't think I've ever seen Ali's hands quite move like that. Ali may've had a quicker one-two than anyone in the division, but for combinations, I feel Patterson's gloves were even snappier.

The problem for Johansson (apart from his less-than-dedicated approach to the sport) was that he was largely dependent upon a punch that was great, but not as lethal as the Americans felt after he took the title. The power behind it was real, but not on the same level as Liston's, & Liston was even better with his left than he was with the right. Patterson arose seven times from Johansson's right hand in the first meeting alone --- tribute undoubtedly to his (IMO) under-appreciated courage, but indicative also that Johansson's thunder right was a great punch, but not at the elite level for brute force. Liston's power moved much quicker to permanently deposit Patterson on the canvas, in both of their bouts.

Johansson was good at staving a man with the left & setting up a big right hand, & his footwork was capable of facilitating this, but his chin was no better than average, his dedication waned, & he was defensively sloppy at times. As champions go, he was genuinely good, but remained somewhat limited.

I don't think anyone will place him among the top echelon of Heavyweight champions, & rightly so. No shame in that, though.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 07 Feb 2008, 19:05

GNI,

I have to agree. Patterson is so damned fast and explosive, when he bursts.

I must agree with what you said.

One thing about Ingo, I am not a fan when it comes to watching him, but I will not deny his power.

Kym

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 07 Feb 2008, 19:09

I would put Patterson at #2. Not just because of the fact that he was fighting Patterson, though obviously that's relevant, but the Ali who fought Floyd the first time I would say is the fastest Heavyweight of all time. Floyd had more power, though.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Feb 2008, 19:12

Ali had a quicker one-two, superior footspeed (plainly) &, across the board, faster reflexes. I would give the edge in handspeed to Patterson, but it's close enough between the two that by the time they met in 1965, Ali was snappier. I agree that Patterson was the harder puncher. I feel his power is actually a little under-appreciated.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 08 Feb 2008, 00:55

..if the mandatory eight count hadn't been in effect in their third match ingo just might have won. he hurt floyd with that knockdown and might have been able to finish him with a shorter count. also, i think he did beat the count himself at the final knockout and could have continued but i don't think it would have made a difference as he was woozy and ingo also was a front runner.

saw a picture of him taken a few years ago. near 300 pounds....a lot for a non-person.

incidentally patterson always said ingo hit him harder than anyone ever before or since in that first fight....harder than liston....but fighters almost always say a guy they beat hit harder than a guy they didn't.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 08 Feb 2008, 07:33

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Ali had a quicker one-two, superior footspeed (plainly) &, across the board, faster reflexes. I would give the edge in handspeed to Patterson, but it's close enough between the two that by the time they met in 1965, Ali was snappier. I agree that Patterson was the harder puncher. I feel his power is actually a little under-appreciated.

It's possible Floyd had faster hands but against Ali he couldn't make it pay. If you watch the first round (that's all you need to do) of the first fight with Ali you will see Ali standing in front of Floyd and acting the clown, purposely throwing punches over his head and at one stage even shooting them out to the side. Surely if Patterson was as fast and as lethal as some of you think he'd have made Ali pay...

Some of you claim to have boxed. If you had an opponent doing that and you were faster, don't you think you'd have been able to catch him with a straight punch?

I like Floyd. What's not to like about him? But Ali had him dancing to his tune.

And who can forget Ali rocking up to Patterson's training camp with a handful of carrots and the announcement "Henceforth you will be known as the rabbit!".

Thunder and Lightning · Post by **Thunder and Lightning** » 08 Feb 2008, 07:55

Ingemar johansson will never be forgotten atleast not in Sweden he is very popular here he was named as Swedens #3 greatest athlet of all time a couple of years ago, he still lives in Sweden but like john2345 said he has Alzheimers and lives at a home for old people.

Ingemar was a good boxer and is very underrated IMO however his career was very short as far as a heavyweight champion goes that coupled with him being european it's not strange that he is not very well remembered in the states.

As far as the hall of fame goes Johansson should probably not be in there because his career was so short and he didn't realy accomplish a great deal on a world level but there is alot of guys in the hall that deserve it less guys like Clevland Williams who accomplished nothing and beat no one, Jess Willard and IMO Ken Norton who was awarded a championship and beat Ali by SD just to name a few, I'm not taking anything away from either Williams or Norton both were good fighters but if Ingo doesn't deserve the hall then they don't either.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 08 Feb 2008, 08:12

Thunder and Lightning wrote:Ingemar johansson will never be forgotten atleast not in Sweden he is very popular here he was named as Swedens #3 greatest athlet of all time a couple of years ago, he still lives in Sweden but like john2345 said he has Alzheimers and lives at a home for old people.

Ingemar was a good boxer and is very underrated IMO however his career was very short as far as a heavyweight champion goes that coupled with him being european it's not strange that he is not very well remembered in the states.

As far as the hall of fame goes Johansson should probably not be in there because his career was so short and he didn't realy accomplish a great deal on a world level but there is alot of guys in the hall that deserve it less guys like Clevland Williams who accomplished nothing and beat no one, Jess Willard and IMO Ken Norton who was awarded a championship and beat Ali by SD just to name a few, I'm not taking anything away from either Williams or Norton both were good fighters but if Ingo doesn't deserve the hall then they don't either.

I agree. If Norton is deserving of a place in the HOF then certainly Ingo is.

Anyway, he isn't forgotten. No fan of boxing who is aware of Patterson can be ignorant of Ingo.

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 08 Feb 2008, 12:15

I met Ingo in the eighties when he used to be a regular ringsider at the Hank Kaplan- Ramiro Ortiz promotions at War Memorial in Ft Lauderdale. I found him -in a half dozen conversations- to be an affable, articulate man. At the time he owned a motel and several properties in Broward County and was moderately wealthy.

I hear he's back in Europe and suffers from Alzheimers.

I do agree he's under rated but I do not believe he was a great champion. If he somewhat forgotten is in part because (1) His career was short and he did not get the same international exposure as others. (2) When he retired he kept a low profile without the pathos of a Patterson, the political controversy of an Ali or the surly implied mean danger of a Liston.

Ingo was a good boxer with a very good right hand but his style lacked flash.

Ingemar Johansson is a non person today.

Ingemar Johansson is a non person today.

re

Re: Ingemar Johansson is a non person today.

re

re