Great documentary on Arguello and Pryor

[pringle]

Oldie but goodie. Good stuff, check it out:

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr8A2CG1 ... re=related

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDg2Gey6 ... re=related

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0hs4acq ... re=related

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE7HJU-i ... re=related

[Goodnight, Irene]

It should be arriving in my mailbox sometime this week

[BoxBuzz]

pryor...definately and without doubt a candidate for the most overated of all time. uh oh...here I go again.

And I am now going to bow out of the Pryor discussion for now and forever....or I will surely be classified as the "granberry of Pryor". a fate I feel I do not deserve.

Perhaps if you don't have something good to say you should simply consider your options and choose silence.

[Jaclem]

..dammit buzz.....i've been counting on you to take my place after i retired from the farce of pryor's career.....now is there no one to come to the fore?

although, come to think of it, we don't need a successor....we've said all there is on the subject, we saw the fights others have only read about on box rec......and if they still rank pryor among the greats...alas, they never are going to be convinced.

[harrygreb]

buzz you are officially the "granberry of pryor"

[Goodnight, Irene]

What's everyone's problem with Pryor, anyway? A great fighter, determined as hell, unlucky to come along in a uniquely talented timeframe, surrounded by genuine ring legends at or close to his weight, still managed to make an impressive career. Undersold, IMO.

Give the guy a break.

[dempseyfire]

How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

[granberry]

..dammit buzz.....i've been counting on you to take my place after i retired from the farce of pryor's career.....

You must be kidding.

Pryor was a superior physical specimen.

He was so superior he would flaunt it.

Leonard wouldn't dare get in the ring with him.

Arguello didn't belong in the same ring with Pryor.

That's why they have weight classes in boxing.

Pryor had ability to waste.

[BoxBuzz]

..dammit buzz.....i've been counting on you to take my place after i retired from the farce of pryor's career.....

You must be kidding.

Pryor was a superior physical specimen.

He was so superior he would flaunt it.

Leonard wouldn't dare get in the ring with him.

Arguello didn't belong in the same ring with Pryor.

That's why they have weight classes in boxing.

Pryor had ability to waste.

Ok...that's it I guess I'm back in! , granberry claims Pryor is first class, top shelf, blue ribbon material! Aye yi yi yi yi! We are through the looking glass here folks.

I should have known that in the granberry scenario Leonard runs as fast as he can from the true threat that Pryor posed. Did Hearns run too? And Duran and Benitez?

Never mind, I'm sure the answer from granberry is yes, yes,yes, and yes.

Cervantes in his prime would have completely taken care of business with this guy granny....but I'm sure you are going to tell me that is not the case and how wrong I am.

I might as well announce here and now on granberry's behalf that Aaron Pryor was likely the best super light that ever dropped by for a donnybrook!

Why are you focused on sending my blood pressure through the roof? Never mind...it's because you suspect I have read one too many Ken Burn's books and you feel I must be stopped before I spread any more malicious nonsense about.

Now....I'm back out again...... and I hope I can keep from responding from what is sure to be the finest tribute granberry can muster in behalf of A&P.

Pryor had ability to waste? Did he carry it around in a little blue bottle?
Never mind.....never mind.

Boy did he ever go down hill fast! I guess he wasted that talent in hyper drive after his Arguello moment in the sun. And how about the caliber of fighter he built that record on! Now there is pure boxing elite in that resume!

Ay yi yi yi yi!

Damn, I just realized granny got me monolougin' again. ....I bet he just said those things to yank my chain.....and he got away with it!. Would someone just knuckle his head for me?

[granberry]

I watched more than one fight Pryor had

with Harold Johnson and heard Johnson comment continually on what we were seeing.

But meanwhile, here on the internet, we all have the privilege of hearing the buzz level of comprehension.

What a useless place the internet is.

[BoxBuzz]

I watched more than one fight Pryor had

with Harold Johnson and heard Johnson comment continually on what we were seeing.

But meanwhile, here on the internet, we all have the privilege of hearing the buzz level of comprehension.

What a useless place the internet is.

and yet.....you remain....right here in what you call that "useless place".

[granberry]

I watched more than one fight Pryor had

with Harold Johnson and heard Johnson comment continually on what we were seeing.

But meanwhile, here on the internet, we all have the privilege of hearing the buzz level of comprehension.

What a useless place the internet is.

and yet.....you remain....right here in what you call that "useless place".

There are a few who are capable of learning something.

They don't post much, but they can read.

[BoxBuzz]

Pryor is someone I really hoped would turn into all that he could be, I was able to keep a close eye on his career due to my proximity to most of his fights. Early on he did show that potential, but he never became all that he could be or even all that people thought he had become.

And your "waste" comment is somewhat poignant.

[Ambling Alp]

How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

I guess it depends on how you look at a few things.
-How big of a deal was it to beat Arguello? It was a big deal. Anyone who has seen those fights have to know that it would take a great fighter to have beaten Arguello like Pryor did. Against almost any other Jr Welter ever, Arguello wins if he fought that well.

-How big of a deal was it to beat Cervantes? Not as big of a deal if he had beaten Cervantes at his best, but Cervantes was still pretty good when Pryor beat him.

-The whole idea that Leonard, Hearns etc. ducked him? That one is hard to swallow. If Pryor really wanted to fight these guys, he could have moved up to welterweight.

-How impressive was Pryor's title reign? At first glance, you see that he had beaten Cervantes for the title, had 10 defenses, including two against Arguello.
However, if you take a hard look at who he was fighting (besides Arguello), it's not that impressive: Top contenders like Gene Hatcher, Johnny Bumphus, and Jo Kipauni never got shots against Pryor, though 3 guys that weren't in the Top 10 did.
Pryor could also have fought Saoul Mamby,Leroy Haley,Bruce Curry, or Billy Costello, all whom won the WBC title. He never did.

Pryor probably would have beaten these guys, but the bottom line is that he didn't. therefore he shouldn't be considered a legend.

I can see where someone might think that Pryor was slightly overrated. Still, it seems that he did enough and looked impressive enough that he should be considered a great fighter.

My question for boxbuzz,Jaclem or anyone else that isn't sold on Pryor is this: Just how good do you think he was?

-Does he deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
-Who are some other fighters that you would rank as about the same as Pryor?

[BoxBuzz]

I just saw who started this thread.....I should have known....pringle, I know what you're up to.

Pretty clever actually, might have done it myself if I would have seen such a great opportunity.

Now stop it, your scaring the kids.



Oh and ambling alp says that Ken Burns never wrote books on this subject, which should add credibility to the fact that I have never read them. (Though I assumed books existed that supported his television documentaries.) So I'm actually surprised to find that to be the case.

[dempseyfire]

How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

I guess it depends on how you look at a few things.
-How big of a deal was it to beat Arguello? It was a big deal. Anyone who has seen those fights have to know that it would take a great fighter to have beaten Arguello like Pryor did. Against almost any other Jr Welter ever, Arguello wins if he fought that well.

-How big of a deal was it to beat Cervantes? Not as big of a deal if he had beaten Cervantes at his best, but Cervantes was still pretty good when Pryor beat him.

-The whole idea that Leonard, Hearns etc. ducked him? That one is hard to swallow. If Pryor really wanted to fight these guys, he could have moved up to welterweight.

-How impressive was Pryor's title reign? At first glance, you see that he had beaten Cervantes for the title, had 10 defenses, including two against Arguello.
However, if you take a hard look at who he was fighting (besides Arguello), it's not that impressive: Top contenders like Gene Hatcher, Johnny Bumphus, and Jo Kipauni never got shots against Pryor, though 3 guys that weren't in the Top 10 did.
Pryor could also have fought Saoul Mamby,Leroy Haley,Bruce Curry, or Billy Costello, all whom won the WBC title. He never did.

Pryor probably would have beaten these guys, but the bottom line is that he didn't. therefore he shouldn't be considered a legend.

I can see where someone might think that Pryor was slightly overrated. Still, it seems that he did enough and looked impressive enough that he should be considered a great fighter.

My question for boxbuzz,Jaclem or anyone else that isn't sold on Pryor is this: Just how good do you think he was?

-Does he deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
-Who are some other fighters that you would rank as about the same as Pryor?

His opponent list in between the Cervantes and Arguello wins wasn't that impressive (although Johnson was a pretty good fighter). The 140 lb division in 1981 wasn't exactly loaded. Also, Leonard, for whatever reason, clearly avoided a match with Pryor. Pryor wanted that fight more than anything b/c it would've been by far his biggest payday. I never hear people claim Hearns ducked him . . .Hearns was way too big for Pryor anyway.

His descent into drugs in the mid 80s and ensuing inactivity/decline definetely hurts his standings historically, but from his two wins against Arguello and his domination of his opponents in his prime, he was clearly a special fighter who could've achieved even more than he did. I think he deserves the IBHOF. Similar fighters? Hard to say, at 140 I'd rank him above Carlos Hernandez, Tsyzu and Hatton and below Locche, Cervantes, Benitez, Ross, and Canzoneri.

[Ambling Alp]

I agree that the division wasn't "loaded" during the early 1980's, but clearly there were better opponents than most of the fighters that Pryor beat. (such as Mamby,Haley,Curry,Costello,Hatcher,Bumphus, and Kimpuani.)
Again, if Pryor really wanted a fight with Leonard, he could have moved up to welterweight. He would have got a title shot sooner or later. I have never heard of anyone else being accused of ducking a fighter who won't move up to his weight level. (For the love of God, I hope this doesn't turn into yet another Leonard-Bashing thread.)

I thought I had heard people saying that Hearns supposedly ducked Pryor, but maybe I am mistaken.

I pretty much agree with demspeyfires rating of Pryor. He was certainly better than Hernandez and Tszu, and much, much better than Hatton.
I'm not sure about Locche and Cervantes (they are hard to rate as well), and I would rate him behind Benitez,Canzoneri, and Ross. I think he would have given any Jr Welterweight a very tough fight.

Boxbuzz- I wonder if one reason that you don't have much regard for Pryor is that you a rating him on what he could have been, not what he actaully did. Yes, he could have had a better career, but how good was his career?
Just where do you rate him? I remember you saying previously that you don't think he was as good as Cervantes and Locche. Do you consider him better than Tyszu,Hernandez etc?
Does he even belong in the International boxing Hall of Fame?

[BoxBuzz]

I agree that the division wasn't "loaded" during the early 1980's, but clearly there were better opponents than most of the fighters that Pryor beat. (such as Mamby,Haley,Curry,Costello,Hatcher,Bumphus, and Kimpuani.)
Again, if Pryor really wanted a fight with Leonard, he could have moved up to welterweight. He would have got a title shot sooner or later. I have never heard of anyone else being accused of ducking a fighter who won't move up to his weight level. (For the love of God, I hope this doesn't turn into yet another Leonard-Bashing thread.)

I thought I had heard people saying that Hearns supposedly ducked Pryor, but maybe I am mistaken.

I pretty much agree with demspeyfires rating of Pryor. He was certainly better than Hernandez and Tszu, and much, much better than Hatton.
I'm not sure about Locche and Cervantes (they are hard to rate as well), and I would rate him behind Benitez,Canzoneri, and Ross. I think he would have given any Jr Welterweight a very tough fight.

Boxbuzz- I wonder if one reason that you don't have much regard for Pryor is that you a rating him on what he could have been, not what he actaully did. Yes, he could have had a better career, but how good was his career?
Just where do you rate him? I remember you saying previously that you don't think he was as good as Cervantes and Locche. Do you consider him better than Tyszu,Hernandez etc?
Does he even belong in the International boxing Hall of Fame?

As you know Alp, in order to keep my integrity intact I have to say yes to your question on "Hall of Fame" status. He is rather well known.

Here are some facts....what "truth" do they lead one toward?


"The first fairly talented champion to exploit the power of a planned and padded "0" Madison Avenue style...(Ok maybe Lamar Clark...but I did say "fairly talented)

*perfect predatory timing of an aging GREAT champion based on his "0".

*perfect timing of another aging GREAT (and smaller) champion based on his "0" Probably the ONLY real risk he ever took so I won't call this predatory. And to his credit these fights were a war...and celebrated and played and seen perhaps more than any other non HW fight in hsitory. (Hall of Fame stuff).

*calling out every major name in sight while avoiding every really serious challenger that posed a threat who was actually willing to engage at the time. Had he accomplished some of that house cleaing he might have actually got the fights he claimed he wanted to "jump" to.

*The things that destroyed him (drugs) are the same things that "turbo boosted" him in his "prime". the conspiracy of that "little bottle"? No not at all there was nothing in it other than water...BUT it had been blessed by a voodoo priestess.....and we all know what that can do!

There is more.....but I'm turning granberry here....and I feel have to go do 20 hail Mary's.

I'll quote Jaclem here.....regarding any fight with Duran...

The biggest fight there would have been would have been with the five guys it would have taken to drag him into the ring with Duran.

[Goodnight, Irene]

How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

I guess it depends on how you look at a few things.
-How big of a deal was it to beat Arguello? It was a big deal. Anyone who has seen those fights have to know that it would take a great fighter to have beaten Arguello like Pryor did. Against almost any other Jr Welter ever, Arguello wins if he fought that well.

-How big of a deal was it to beat Cervantes? Not as big of a deal if he had beaten Cervantes at his best, but Cervantes was still pretty good when Pryor beat him.

-The whole idea that Leonard, Hearns etc. ducked him? That one is hard to swallow. If Pryor really wanted to fight these guys, he could have moved up to welterweight.

-How impressive was Pryor's title reign? At first glance, you see that he had beaten Cervantes for the title, had 10 defenses, including two against Arguello.
However, if you take a hard look at who he was fighting (besides Arguello), it's not that impressive: Top contenders like Gene Hatcher, Johnny Bumphus, and Jo Kipauni never got shots against Pryor, though 3 guys that weren't in the Top 10 did.
Pryor could also have fought Saoul Mamby,Leroy Haley,Bruce Curry, or Billy Costello, all whom won the WBC title. He never did.

Pryor probably would have beaten these guys, but the bottom line is that he didn't. therefore he shouldn't be considered a legend.

I can see where someone might think that Pryor was slightly overrated. Still, it seems that he did enough and looked impressive enough that he should be considered a great fighter.

My question for boxbuzz,Jaclem or anyone else that isn't sold on Pryor is this: Just how good do you think he was?

-Does he deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
-Who are some other fighters that you would rank as about the same as Pryor?

How big a deal was it that Leonard beat a Benitez severely hampered by a cut for the majority of their only encounter?

If we can call into question Pryor-Arguello I, we can more than do the same for Leonard-Benitez. As far as Arguello being naturally smaller, Pryor won their first encounter. How'd Leonard do first-up against the smaller (& ageing) Duran?

& for the record, I don't for one minute believe Leonard ducked Pryor. Could be a different story with Hearns, however...

[silkov]

..dammit buzz.....i've been counting on you to take my place after i retired from the farce of pryor's career.....

You must be kidding.

Pryor was a superior physical specimen.

He was so superior he would flaunt it.

Leonard wouldn't dare get in the ring with him.

Arguello didn't belong in the same ring with Pryor.

That's why they have weight classes in boxing.

Pryor had ability to waste.

Ok...that's it I guess I'm back in! , granberry claims Pryor is first class, top shelf, blue ribbon material! Aye yi yi yi yi! We are through the looking glass here folks.

I should have known that in the granberry scenario Leonard runs as fast as he can from the true threat that Pryor posed. Did Hearns run too? And Duran and Benitez?

Never mind, I'm sure the answer from granberry is yes, yes,yes, and yes.

Cervantes in his prime would have completely taken care of business with this guy granny....but I'm sure you are going to tell me that is not the case and how wrong I am.

I might as well announce here and now on granberry's behalf that Aaron Pryor was likely the best super light that ever dropped by for a donnybrook!

Why are you focused on sending my blood pressure through the roof? Never mind...it's because you suspect I have read one too many Ken Burn's books and you feel I must be stopped before I spread any more malicious nonsense about.

Now....I'm back out again...... and I hope I can keep from responding from what is sure to be the finest tribute granberry can muster in behalf of A&P.

Pryor had ability to waste? Did he carry it around in a little blue bottle?
Never mind.....never mind.

Boy did he ever go down hill fast! I guess he wasted that talent in hyper drive after his Arguello moment in the sun. And how about the caliber of fighter he built that record on! Now there is pure boxing elite in that resume!

Ay yi yi yi yi!

Damn, I just realized granny got me monolougin' again. ....I bet he just said those things to yank my chain.....and he got away with it!. Would someone just knuckle his head for me?

Seriously man youre denegration of Pryor is getting a bit old now dude!. Its a bit rich telling posters to respect eachother and boxers in general and yet everytime Pryors name comes up in a discussion you dismiss him and insult him. You should have a bit more respect for a guy who despite his wild lifestyle and terrible upbringing actually managed to scale the heights for a while and was despite what you say a damn good fighter, ....so just watch a few of his fights and marvel at his mixture of speed power and daring do (and thats just his ring entrance!!) and stop giving me grief about one of my heros!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!.... 8)

[BoxBuzz]

You must be kidding.

Pryor was a superior physical specimen.

He was so superior he would flaunt it.

Leonard wouldn't dare get in the ring with him.

Arguello didn't belong in the same ring with Pryor.

That's why they have weight classes in boxing.

Pryor had ability to waste.

Ok...that's it I guess I'm back in! , granberry claims Pryor is first class, top shelf, blue ribbon material! Aye yi yi yi yi! We are through the looking glass here folks.

I should have known that in the granberry scenario Leonard runs as fast as he can from the true threat that Pryor posed. Did Hearns run too? And Duran and Benitez?

Never mind, I'm sure the answer from granberry is yes, yes,yes, and yes.

Cervantes in his prime would have completely taken care of business with this guy granny....but I'm sure you are going to tell me that is not the case and how wrong I am.

I might as well announce here and now on granberry's behalf that Aaron Pryor was likely the best super light that ever dropped by for a donnybrook!

Why are you focused on sending my blood pressure through the roof? Never mind...it's because you suspect I have read one too many Ken Burn's books and you feel I must be stopped before I spread any more malicious nonsense about.

Now....I'm back out again...... and I hope I can keep from responding from what is sure to be the finest tribute granberry can muster in behalf of A&P.

Pryor had ability to waste? Did he carry it around in a little blue bottle?
Never mind.....never mind.

Boy did he ever go down hill fast! I guess he wasted that talent in hyper drive after his Arguello moment in the sun. And how about the caliber of fighter he built that record on! Now there is pure boxing elite in that resume!

Ay yi yi yi yi!

Damn, I just realized granny got me monolougin' again. ....I bet he just said those things to yank my chain.....and he got away with it!. Would someone just knuckle his head for me?

Seriously man youre denegration of Pryor is getting a bit old now dude!. Its a bit rich telling posters to respect eachother and boxers in general and yet everytime Pryors name comes up in a discussion you dismiss him and insult him. You should have a bit more respect for a guy who despite his wild lifestyle and terrible upbringing actually managed to scale the heights for a while and was despite what you say a damn good fighter, ....so just watch a few of his fights and marvel at his mixture of speed power and daring do (and thats just his ring entrance!!) and stop giving me grief about one of my heros!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!.... 8)

Hey, it's just an opinion...sit down, have a coke. I can't help that I came to that conclusion based on my many ringside viewings of his work. As well as my rather focused following of what was sort of a local phenomenon of popular culture. I can assure you that I was in the minority viewpoint in the general Cincinnati area. Most thought he could do no wrong and was truly the best of the best...just as you do!

[silkov]

Ok...that's it I guess I'm back in! , granberry claims Pryor is first class, top shelf, blue ribbon material! Aye yi yi yi yi! We are through the looking glass here folks.

I should have known that in the granberry scenario Leonard runs as fast as he can from the true threat that Pryor posed. Did Hearns run too? And Duran and Benitez?

Never mind, I'm sure the answer from granberry is yes, yes,yes, and yes.

Cervantes in his prime would have completely taken care of business with this guy granny....but I'm sure you are going to tell me that is not the case and how wrong I am.

I might as well announce here and now on granberry's behalf that Aaron Pryor was likely the best super light that ever dropped by for a donnybrook!

Why are you focused on sending my blood pressure through the roof? Never mind...it's because you suspect I have read one too many Ken Burn's books and you feel I must be stopped before I spread any more malicious nonsense about.

Now....I'm back out again...... and I hope I can keep from responding from what is sure to be the finest tribute granberry can muster in behalf of A&P.

Pryor had ability to waste? Did he carry it around in a little blue bottle?
Never mind.....never mind.

Boy did he ever go down hill fast! I guess he wasted that talent in hyper drive after his Arguello moment in the sun. And how about the caliber of fighter he built that record on! Now there is pure boxing elite in that resume!

Ay yi yi yi yi!

Damn, I just realized granny got me monolougin' again. ....I bet he just said those things to yank my chain.....and he got away with it!. Would someone just knuckle his head for me?

Seriously man youre denegration of Pryor is getting a bit old now dude!. Its a bit rich telling posters to respect eachother and boxers in general and yet everytime Pryors name comes up in a discussion you dismiss him and insult him. You should have a bit more respect for a guy who despite his wild lifestyle and terrible upbringing actually managed to scale the heights for a while and was despite what you say a damn good fighter, ....so just watch a few of his fights and marvel at his mixture of speed power and daring do (and thats just his ring entrance!!) and stop giving me grief about one of my heros!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!.... 8)

Hey, it's just an opinion...sit down, have a coke. I can't help that I came to that conclusion based on my many ringside viewings of his work. As well as my rather focused following of what was sort of a local phenomenon of popular culture. I can assure you that I was in the minority viewpoint in the general Cincinnati area. Most thought he could do no wrong and was truly the best of the best...just as you do!

Well, opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one but most of us dont go flashing them about everywhere!... 8) ....lighten up though I'm just kidding with you... but youre on think ice regarding your Pryor attitude!...

[BoxBuzz]

Yeah, but remember if it wasn't for my controversial opinion on Pryor, I'd probably be the 100% Koombaya man around these parts. I couldn't live with myself under those circumstances.

[silkov]

Yeah, but remember if it wasn't for my controversial opinion on Pryor, I'd probably be the 100% Koombaya man around these parts. I couldn't live with myself under those circumstances.

Koombaya!??... now theres someone who was overrated!... decent punch but no chin to spaek of and as for his dress sense it had to be seen to be believed!... ofcourse I would have guessed that you'd be his number one fan... but fancy hats and shades while fighting dont a great fighter make!... 8)

[BoxBuzz]

you talkin bout this fella? Couldn't get out of his own way.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer