What are your theories on this?

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 27 Jan 2004, 07:59

Why is the heavyweight division on both domestic and world level in such a dire state?

I'm looking for social, financial, physical reasons. I'll post what I think when I've a bit more time later on.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:24

world level:
big athlectic black boys make shit more money playing basketball or football in the US

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:27

knockout wrote:world level:
big athlectic black boys make shit more money playing basketball or football in the US

True True...

But funnily enough not in the UK. So the potential is there for more Heavyweights stars to come from here I guess....

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:34

In the States, it's believed around 80 per cent of professional heavyweights have drug issues...

Chambers · Post by **Chambers** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:51

Personally, I don't think the domestic division is in a dire state.

I am not a great historian of the sport, but have there been many eras of great strength and depth in the World HW division apart from Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman etc in the 60's.

One reason is that peoples size is normally distributed i.e. in the world there are a few very small people, a shit load of medium sized people and a few very large people, therefore there is a smaller selection/catchment area for the HW's.

IMO, the physic size of the Heavyweights highlights the difference in class between the 2 fighters, also they can quite often look cumbersome where as you wouldn't notice this so much in the lower weights as the difference in speed between the 2 fighters is less noticeable. Also when fighting in the lower weights you can make a mistake and get caught square on the chin and not necessarily get knocked out, where as if the same happens in the heavies you are more likely to get KO'd, the Heavyweight division is very unforgiving.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:59

There's a good article on the subject at:
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/boxing/comm ... 57,00.html

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 27 Jan 2004, 09:19

Yes I think the domestic heavweight division is fine too.

Fair to say the recent Williams/Sprott fight has raised a few questions but they are both good domestic fighters. Herbie Hide wherever he may be also fits into this category.

You then have Audley (the best of the bunch), Skelton and Greenberg (is he domestic?) as up and coming undefeated fighters.

Also, Long and Francis deserve a bit of a mention.

It could be better but could be a lot worse too.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 27 Jan 2004, 09:38

bennie wrote:There's a good article on the subject at:
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/boxing/comm ... 57,00.html

It's interesting there that Emanuel Steward claims any Lewis/Klitchko rematch would be a 50/50 fight, whereas last night on BBC 5 Live, Steward claimed Lewis would comfortably win any rematch....

I think Emanuel Steward either gets misquoted a lot, or chops and changes his opinion on a week by week basis....

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 27 Jan 2004, 09:44

FlawedGenius wrote:Why is the heavyweight division on both domestic and world level in such a dire state?

I'm looking for social, financial, physical reasons. I'll post what I think when I've a bit more time later on.

So many reasons I guess....

I personally follow horseracing a lot and similar things happen. You get "Golden eras", and then often a few years of near junk at certain points. Its just the way it is....

At "some point", there will be a sudden emergence of heavyweight stars again. Its just a case of waiting I suppose...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 Jan 2004, 09:47

As I said somewhere else (and as Doug Fischer stated a while back in an article) what Manny says these days when someone points a mic at him.

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 27 Jan 2004, 09:47

drugs.simple as that.

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 27 Jan 2004, 10:32

big black/white athletes in the states know there are easier ways of earning a buck than getting your head bashed in. Baseball, basketball and American football have probably nicked a few good heavies in the last 30 years or so.

Education being widespread could also be a factor, more kids from poor backgrounds can get grants/help with fees and thus whereas boxing used to be a sport that could save them from poverty, young men can see other ways of earning through learning.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 27 Jan 2004, 10:36

well all this so called super heavy stuff is mainly down to fat boys, there's only Lewis, the Klits, Grant and McCline who are big and in shape, everybody else who's over 225 is just in abysmal condition

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 27 Jan 2004, 11:05

That's true to an extent MrBassie. There's a lot of Gut Lords and failed bodybuilders calling themselves heavyweight boxers, sadly.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:29

Just the usual ups and downs and highs and lows I guess.
The 70's was the golden era of the heavyweights, but looking back at the 80's the division was in dire straits too - the lost generation of coke heads.

There was Larry Holmes................and that was it.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:34

MightyWarrior wrote:Just the usual ups and downs and highs and lows I guess.
The 70's was the golden era of the heavyweights, but looking back at the 80's the division was in dire straits too - the lost generation of coke heads.

There was Larry Holmes................and that was it.

1980s MW - there was someone else who was pretty good to

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:34

The very best big athletic gys can make too much money in other sports wothout taking punches.

Boxing is often left with basketball/american football left overs - ie Big Time McCline and Touch of Sleep.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:38

stujones wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Just the usual ups and downs and highs and lows I guess.
The 70's was the golden era of the heavyweights, but looking back at the 80's the division was in dire straits too - the lost generation of coke heads.

There was Larry Holmes................and that was it.
1980s MW - there was someone else who was pretty good to

True, should've said early 80's - tend to think of the 80's as Holmes' era..

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:44

stujones wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Just the usual ups and downs and highs and lows I guess.
The 70's was the golden era of the heavyweights, but looking back at the 80's the division was in dire straits too - the lost generation of coke heads.

There was Larry Holmes................and that was it.
1980s MW - there was someone else who was pretty good to

Yeah, how can MW have forgotten to give Greg Page a mention?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:47

On this arguement I agree with Terrible Terry, the current crop where probably growin up in the eighties and whilst Tyson certainly got boxing mainstream attention. Guys like Jerry Rice, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Joe Montona are made sure that the tradional bigger sports, stayed that way.

Also, I wonder if Tyson may have actually frightened these big guys, who turned to different - Remember he's only 6 years older than the likes of Rahman etc now. I can't imagine many 16 year olds relishing the chance of fighting the 20 year old Tyson - so chose the other option.

I disagree somewhat with MW's post, compared to Ruiz, Tua and Rahman etc - brief champions like Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Spinks were excellent fighter - but Tyson was simply leagues above them. Who would have wanted to fight him - only guys who were boxing at a successful amateur level before he hit the seen - Bowe, Moorer, Mercer, Holyfield and Lewis (the only decent heavyweights since Tyson).

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 27 Jan 2004, 13:52

stujones wrote:On this arguement I agree with Terrible Terry, the current crop where probably growin up in the eighties and whilst Tyson certainly got boxing mainstream attention. Guys like Jerry Rice, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Joe Montona are made sure that the tradional bigger sports, stayed that way.

Also, I wonder if Tyson may have actually frightened these big guys, who turned to different - Remember he's only 6 years older than the likes of Rahman etc now. I can't imagine many 16 year olds relishing the chance of fighting the 20 year old Tyson - so chose the other option.

I disagree somewhat with MW's post, compared to Ruiz, Tua and Rahman etc - brief champions like Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Spinks were excellent fighter - but Tyson was simply leagues above them. Who would have wanted to fight him - only guys who were boxing at a successful amateur level before he hit the seen - Bowe, Moorer, Mercer, Holyfield and Lewis (the only decent heavyweights since Tyson).

Interesting points. Also begs the question that perhaps an icon type fighter like Tyson actually has a short term impact on the sport, not a long term one as one might assume.

Perhaps a figure like Tyson gets a lot of people who aren't really meant to be boxers going to the gym and giving up in 2 weeks, but also inspires his immediate peers to push themselves that bit harder. I don't think it's any coincidence that Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis came along a couple of years after Tyson to hit the heights that they did.

Also, another thing I sometimes ponder is other sportsmen you think would have been good boxers. You know that kind of athlete you look at and think they would have been good at anything they turned themselves to. I would name Pete Sampras and Theiry Henry for starters.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 27 Jan 2004, 15:43

Goz wrote:
stujones wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Just the usual ups and downs and highs and lows I guess.
The 70's was the golden era of the heavyweights, but looking back at the 80's the division was in dire straits too - the lost generation of coke heads.

There was Larry Holmes................and that was it.
1980s MW - there was someone else who was pretty good to
Yeah, how can MW have forgotten to give Greg Page a mention?

I thought we were talking about Tony Tubbs?

What are your theories on this?

What are your theories on this?

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