Rocky Marciano: An Enduring Legacy Into Mythology

[dagosd2000]

By ending his professional career undefeated it is sometimes hard to analyze his true worth as a fighter. If Ali had never come out of retirement. If Louis had not fought after the war. If Dempsey never fights Tunney. Johnson never in the ring with Willard. Even Tyson stopping after the Spinks fight. If these fellows would have quit in their prime they would have been examined just like Marciano-they didn't fight enough good fighters. But we know what they were like in their prime and when they were past it. We can see the difference. Rocky quit in his prime. If he had continued, sooner or later,somebody not as great as he was in his prime would have beat him.

[Controversial]

By ending his professional career undefeated it is sometimes hard to analyze his true worth as a fighter. If Ali had never come out of retirement. If Louis had not fought after the war. If Dempsey never fights Tunney. Johnson never in the ring with Willard. Even Tyson stopping after the Spinks fight. If these fellows would have quit in their prime they would have been examined just like Marciano-they didn't fight enough good fighters. But we know what they were like in their prime and when they were past it. We can see the difference. Rocky quit in his prime. If he had continued, sooner or later,somebody not as great as he was in his prime would have beat him.

Couldn't agree more. Marciano knew when to stop, if he continued he may well have got beat then people would have completely different opinions on him. I'm still of the opinion that Marciano mainly fought fighters that were past their best, and usually struggled to beat them.

[HomicideHenry]

If he had continued, sooner or later,somebody not as great as he was in his prime would have beat him.

It's quite possible, but then again, some people are defined by their losses, or become better fighters after a loss. Ali was great to begin with, but following Frazier and Norton, he became better in some respects after those losses, though he had to compensate for some of his losses in speed and agility.

I think had Marciano continued on, he would have held the title for possibly another four or five years. Outside of Eddie Machen and a green Floyd Patterson, a green Sonny Liston and Ingemar Johansson, there was really nobody out there that I can invision beating Marciano, even on an off night.

But then again, had he fought the Nino Valdes's, Bob Baker's, Bob Satterfield's, maybe he would be ranked higher than he generally is because those men were in their primes, and Patterson was close to his, as was Ingemar.

Thing with Rocky is, you could beat him inside and out for 10, 12, 13 rounds easily, but all it usually took was one moment of carelessness, and they were gone. Rocky was such an inviting target because of his small reach and size, that people made the mistake to fight at close range after battering from a distance.

Had he lost, I think it would have been because he would have gotten too old, rather than a matter of someone was better, because outside of Machen really, there was no one at that time who would have stood the chance, in my mind.

[HomicideHenry]

I would like to see many of the more 'expert' posters place down their opinions of how good Rocky's opponents were in the last five-six years of his career. Alot of people make the argument that the majority of them were over the hill and the like, but I would actually like to see an argument be made that some of them were actually peaking twice or were near or in their primes.

[theone]

There are more Rocky "apologist" in the boxing world than for any other fighter. his opponents are always made out to be more than they were just to make him seem even greater. His attributes are also exaggerated in the same way. For example, most of his opponents were clubbed relentlessly into submission by a plethora of punches but most people rate his power as if all of his ko's were one punch "Suzy Q's".
His top opponent, Ezzard Charles was past his prime. He may have rediscoved a bit of his old form in the first fight, but i doubt if he was operating at the very peak of his skills that night. The close nature of the contest probably says more about Marciano's limitations than anything else.
Louis was well past it. I don't think thats even arguable.
Walcott was probably at the peak of his prowess when he fought Marciano and maybe so was Moore, and i consider the first Walcott fight and his fight with Moore as his most impressive.
The Lastraza and Cockell fight are not really worth getting into when judging Marciano's overall greatness.
I believe Marciano benefited greatly from a weak era.
I think if Marciano had fought in the late 60's early 70's, he would have had success equivalent to a Jerry Quarry or Ron Lyle; very good, but not quite good enough to be champ.

[dagosd2000]

Interesting dialogue between HH and theone. When I was a kid the knock against Marciano was that he made his reputation against the"broken boned"fighters of yester year:Louis,Charles,Walcott. He fought Mathews and Savold on his way up and those boys had plenty of mileage on them also.

But Louis was critized for the same thing. Fighting his way up beating older ex champs:Baer,Carnera,Sharkey. Schmeling upset the applecart by beating Joe. Braddock was an old champ when Louis took the title.

Many people don't understand why Rocky didn't go on. There was nothing threatening on the horizon. My father(as I have related before)was in the mob in Chicago. They liked Rocky because here was an Italian who was the heavyweight champ. My father told me(and this was no secret)that towards the end Merciano started to hate fighting. He disliked Al Weill and wanted to get away from him. Weil had bullied Rocky's father and friends,and besides found out that Al was skimming his purses. Rocky was always in great condition and now he hated going to the gym. One day Rocky walked inside the gym and the smell of the place drove him outside and he never went back.

The Rock was a hard guy to figure. It wasn't that he didn't love his wife and kids,but he was seldom home. His appetite for sex was notorious. He had a young girlfriend that he was constantly fighting with. He didn't want to work at anything steady like a job or be involved with anything that would take up too much of his time. He was afraid people wanted him to do things for nothing. He could be extremely gracious when he felt like it. His brothers didn't understand him. His wife was never embraced by Rocky's family.

In many ways Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were similar. They had "demons"inside them that they didn't show the public and I don't think the public wanted to know. That's because in front of the public they always had respect for them.

[HomicideHenry]

I myself have my own opinions on Rocky's opponents, I wouldn't dare dream of let alone say they were of the caliber of the 1960's, 1970's or 1990's, but they were certainly better than the 1980's and the current crop of heavyweights. I do compare the era a bit to Dempsey's era, as in Dempsey's era there were big lumbering wind suckers like Carl Morris and Fred Fulton roaming the scene, but very few and far between was there someone who truly stood out.

Ezzard Charles, though passed his best, was still near enough to his prime that he was able to defeat the highly regarded power puncher "Bombardier" Bob Satterfield inside of two rounds. It was his speed, if anything, in my opinion, that made him survive the 15 rounds the first go around. Many point out that it went 15 rounds and hold it against Marciano, but they forget that the fight, though brutal, wasn't even close. Marciano won that fight hands down.

I take a look at the second Charles fight as one of those 'what if' moments. I personally think, had Charles never busted Rocky's nose like he did, that the fight possibly could have went 10, 12, if not the entire 15 rounds again. Marciano just upped the pace faster than he intended to do, and of course stopped Charles after the fact.

Cockell, of course, was one of those anomalies where he lasted much longer than one would have expected. Cockell, overall, is under-rated by many people today, labeling him as a 'fat man', but Don Cockell had some very fancy foot work and speed. Marciano was under the impression that Cockell was a bum and the fight was the only time in his career that he under-trained and took an opponent less than serious.

The LaStarza fight, for all intents and purposes, is the only time you will see Marciano coming into the ring with animosity against an opponent, as LaStarza joked to the press that Marciano was punch drunk. After the fact, LaStarza said that the Marciano of the second fight was far more superior to the Marciano of the first fight, that he was much harder to hit. LaStarza, of course, would later urinate blood after the fight and blood vessels in his arms burst from Marciano's constant pounding.

The Louis fight, is usually the fight where most of Marciano's skeptics point out that Rocky was over-rated and that the victory meant nothing. While it is true that Louis wasn't in his prime, he was still good enough to be ranked #1 in the world and was supposed to get a shot at Ezzard Charles again, who would later lose it to Walcott. Louis by that time had knocked out guys like Rex Layne and Pat valentino in exhibition bouts and decisioned the likes of Cesar Brion and Lee Savold. Marciano's greatest fear was that people would hate him for beating Louis, and most of all say the victory over an 'old man' was meaningless.

Archie Moore, was quite possibly Marciano's greatest performance in the ring. In nine rounds he knocked down Moore five times, and had it been under rules today, the fight would have been called off much earlier. Moore was still in his prime and would hold on to the Light Heavyweight title for almost another decade after this bout, and would primarily be a top Heavyweight contender virtually up until the time he retired.

Jersey Joe Walcott fought his most perfect fight against Marciano in their first bout. He was so confident he would win that he had said "Marciano is an amateur, I will knock him out" and "If Marciano beats me, take me out of the history books forever." While most of his critics will be quick to point out that Walcott was older than Marciano, it is funny to think that people say Lennox Lewis got better with age, but not Walcott. Ask Joe Louis if he thought Walcott got better with age and he would tell you straight up that it was a fact.

As far as the rematch is concerned, it was a one sided blow out. In my opinion, I believe Walcott was more emotionally and mentally drained than anything else, that losing to a man he was so confident in beating, took all the fighting spirit he had left in him. It is ironic, though, that most of Marciano's opponents after they fought him, generally were never the same again.

While Marciano was one of the ATG body punchers and power hitters, it wasn't so much his ability or his strength that won him fights, but his sheer work rate in the ring. He averaged 80-85 punches a round and it was not unusual for him to throw over 100. Nobody, really, was ever quite able to match his tempo. He fought at a middleweight pace.

According to Marciano, though, the greatest condition he ever was in for a fight was in his bout with the highly regarded Rex Layne, who had just beaten Joe Walcott and was considered the next great Heavyweight. While the fight did make him an instant super star in the sport, it is in my opinion, that the greatest fight, he ever had was against Walcott and Moore.

Many point out other fights as well to hold against Marciano, such as the Red Applegate fight or the Tiger Ted Lowry fights, or even the Kid Matthews bout, saying that Matthews was just a Light Heavyweight [he was after all ranked #5 in the Heavyweight ranks]. But in my opinion, it wasn't the Rocky of the Moore, Charles, Walcott fights, as then Marciano relied solely on his power and bulling than bobbing and weaving and cutting the ring off. He was still green, over all, in terms of ability.

Nonetheless, I would rate the competition (as a whole) a C+ or B-

As far as the comment that Marciano would be on the level with Jerry Quarry, but not be good enough to become champion in the 1970's, the way I see it, had Dempsey, Marciano, Louis, and other ATG's been in the 1970's along with Foreman, Frazier, Norton and Ali, I more than believe that the title would passed back and forth a helluva lot more often than it did, and yes, Marciano would have been one of those who would have held the title for a time.

[HomicideHenry]

Great for you to make your contribution dagosd2000 I couldn't agree more with what you said. Until boxing not only seperates divisions by weight but by age, there will always be someone on the way up fighting someone on the way down. This is unavoidable. For Louis it was Carnera, Schmeling, Baer, Braddock. For Willard it was Johnson. For Johnson it was Fitzsimmons and Jeffries. Hell, even Ali fought Archie Moore. Larry Holmes fought Ali. And hell, Holyfield fought both Holmes and Foreman.

I agree, too, that there wasn't that many opponents with the 'star' power to have kept Marciano's interest. It's kind of like today, where raging fans still storm in to see Evander Holyfield and before he retired, Mike Tyson. Lennox Lewis's greatest victory by some is his win over Tyson, but any real fight fan could tell you Tyson was essentially done in the mid 1990's.

What was left for Marciano was a motely crew of heavyweights who, though decent and good in their own right, were hardly world burners. Tommy Jackson was on the scene, but hell Marciano used him as a sparring partner and beat him so bad in sessions that Jackson would hit the canvas and vomit. Bob Baker and Nino Valdes were good prospects, but hell, the two at the time pulled off the most boring and sloppy fight and who would want to see them stink up the joint again with Marciano?

Eddie Machen was about the only one who was worthy. The rest were guys like Bob Satterfield who hit hard like a ton of bricks but had no chin and burned out after the first few rounds, a young Sonny Liston who would get tossed into jail for assault in 1957, and of course, there was a green Floyd Patterson and other Marciano sparring partners such as Tommy Harrison.

Who else was around at the time? Charley Norkus. Ingemar Johansson. Henry Cooper....and of course the possibility of a Moore-Marciano rematch.

Throw in Al Weil and his skinning ways, and enough is enough. I can't blame Marciano none for retiring, but I do believe he could have held on to the title for possibly another four or five years.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Marciano retired in 1956. Liston turned pro in 1953. I don't think Marciano could possibly have reigned until 1961, unless he held off on Liston like Patterson did. The reality is Liston was ready for a title shot by 1958, & at that point in time, or any time prior to 1961, would have delivered upon an ageing Marciano a terrible beating.

It might have been a pre-cursor to Foreman-Frazier I. If this fight happened in the late 50's or very early 60's, it might even have been one of those tragic occurrences in boxing when an old fighter characterised by intense pride & an undying will hangs in there & suffers permanent damage.

Whatever the case, I think Marciano could never reign into the early 60's with Liston at his peak during the late 50's.

[HomicideHenry]

Liston was in prison during 1957, at the time (1956) Liston had only fought Marty Marshall three times going 2-1-0 with him. It wouldnt have been until 1959 that he would have been a solid number one contender, because in 1958-1959 he done defeated the likes of Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams, Mike DeJohn, Willi Besmanoff and others.

By that time, I suppose, Marciano would have done made six or seven other title defenses, possibly against the same men Liston faced, and possibly would have retired (mind you, most swarmers burn out by 32) because Marciano would have been 36 years old.

I do think Marciano could have beaten Satterfield, Machen, Patterson, Jackson, Valdes, Baker, and Johansson...but I believe only a prime Marciano could have had a chance to have beaten Sonny Liston, and by that time Marciano just wouldn't have been able to have done so.

But Marciano vs 1956 Liston....I'd pick Marciano, Liston had only fought Marty Marshall and didn't really have that much of a kayo streak at that point and time. Was still too green.

[HomicideHenry]

I sat down few nights ago and really took a look at the Louis-Marciano fight. I know I seen the fight many times, but this was really the first time I sat down an analyzed the fight moment by moment. And I'll have to tell you, Marciano could have knocked out Joe Louis at any time during that fight. In the first round, near the end he had Louis reeling for God's sake.

I also noticed that there was many a time that Marciano seemingly pulled his punches, or stepped back, to let Louis recooperate, and he mainly threw body shots from then on out after the first round. Now had it not been Louis (Marciano's idol), as I've seen in other fights, The Rock would have hit non stop and would have taken any and every opprotunity out there to have knocked his man out as quick as he could have. He would have hit to the back of the head, hit any place.

He didn't do that with Louis. The only time he came out like the Marciano we know and respect, was after he knocked Louis down for the first time...then he went out with no mercy, or maybe he did, as he tried to put Louis out of his misery. It was the only time in that fight where Marciano went out strong and hard.

Maybe now, realizing all that after really looking at the fight, I cannot say that the Louis fight was really a big deal in Marciano's career...sure Louis was in line for a match with Walcott and had beaten Savold and Maxim and Brion, but I swear...Marciano could have taken him out at any time.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You might be right, but I have my doubts. If he is willing to headbutt Louis, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that he had too much respect for his idol to finish him off earlier.

Maybe he was just a little gunshy or over-awed by fighting Louis, which would account for him taking an unusually long time to finish the ex-champion. But someone who's to batter an opponent both legally & illegally probably isn't going to carry them, unless they hate them & are intent on prolonging the punishment, which is not the case here.

I didn't say Liston was deserving of a title shot in 1958, I just said he was physically ready for one, though I concede I probably should have worded it better.

[Robinson]

Marciano certanly did dominate the Louis fight, but I dont think he was entirely going easy on Joe.

He landed some pretty nasty fouls. Elbows and butts. You really dont go easy on some one when you try things like that.

Sad fight that should never have happened in my opinion, and no doubt many others.

[HomicideHenry]

A screen-shot from the SUPER FIGHT done in 1969, though released in 1970. Is probably my favorite shot from the film, despite the argument that the outcome was far-fetched. It still doesnt ruin the wonder of the moment, and if anything was like a memorial, a tribute, to a legend who had recently died.

[I Feel Fine]

Marciano certanly did dominate the Louis fight, but I dont think he was entirely going easy on Joe.

He landed some pretty nasty fouls. Elbows and butts. You really dont go easy on some one when you try things like that.

Not only that, he admitted to doing so after the fight.

As for the computer fight; when you're an Ali critic, you need silly things like that to reassure you.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't think anyone is reassurred by that simulation though, are they?

[HomicideHenry]

As for the computer fight; when you're an Ali critic, you need silly things like that to reassure you.

Reassure me of what? I never said the computer fight held any real significance, other than it being apart of Marciano's legacy. It was the last big thing he ever did in his life. Did it mean anything? No, not really. It was purely entertainment. Computers of that time (NCR-315) were not that good, and it was proven 10 times out of 10 that a human being could beat the machine in 'chess' matches. To back it up, Woroner was ruined after the NCR computer predicted that Foster would beat Frazier.

But then again, computers are only as smart as the programmers themselves. Computers only know what they are told. The TitleBout software around today is a hell of alot more accurate than the 1967-1970 NCR software was; by my findings its predicted 8 out of 10 fights accurate, at least in predicting who would win, not give an accurate blow by blow account of what would actually happen.

It was merely entertainment. But still, 30+ years later, its an argument that just wont die, the hypothetical dream match of all time: Ali vs Marciano.

Do I personally believe the computer was right in saying Marciano could beat Ali? Not exactly no, I am more a believer that the computer was smart enough to know that it would take a fighter in the style of Rocky to defeat Ali [and that was later shown to be Joe Frazier]. Do I personally believe Marciano could have defeated Ali? Given the right circumstances, right figures and right times and equipment...yes, I do think so.

It's 60/40 for me, its one of those fights that really could have went either way, though the more likely outcome would have been a fiercely contested fight that would have been almost close to dead even...before Marciano lost on cuts.

[I Feel Fine]

As for the computer fight; when you're an Ali critic, you need silly things like that to reassure you.

Reassure me of what?

I am more a believer that the computer was smart enough to know that it would take a fighter in the style of Rocky to defeat Ali

[HomicideHenry]

I hope that wasn't sarcasm Feel, because the computer was right, as is any well knowledged fan of the sport and its mechanics; Frazier backed it up, that it would take a swarmer to defeat Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

I would like to request this thread to be stickied, considering ALOT of posters with great knowledge put alot of time into the man that is known as The Rock, and best of my knowledge, this is just about the most extensive thread ever done on Marciano. I think the Ali thread, wherever it is, should be stickied too.

[Collins2000]

I disagree. This thread is not of a high enough standard to be 'stickied'.

[HomicideHenry]

:( .........................

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think it could be stickied. It has a long & storied history, now.

[HomicideHenry]

Thanks Goodnight, Irene.

[Goodnight, Irene]

What was that other thread, something about Ali? Do you remember that one? Ali OVERRATED, or something, it was called. For a while there, that & this thread were at it hammer-&-tong for popularity. That thread was rather tepid & weak in its construction, but it turned out to spark some great, lasting discussion of the former three-time champ.