Frank, I think that's actually Jimmy Robertson against El Gato. BTW, is Robertson still living on the coast?scartissue wrote:[quote="Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez (L) vs Ruben Navarro
Scartissue[/quote]
Fix it.
Classic American West Coast Boxing
tissue,scartissue wrote:
Notice that Young, who had the best body attack to come along in years, didn't use it against the glass mid sectioned Norton.
Watch Young stagger Norton with a right hand in the 2nd round---the first real punch he threw in the fight.
Then watch Young move away from the stunned Norton like he (Young) was the one who had been hurt.
I was the only one around Philly not in on that garbage before it took place
Granberry, although I was no big fan of Norton, he had the style which always made for a hard fight on a boxer. It was the bangers who Norton could never get past. But Ali, Young, Holmes, all who had similar styles, he gave them a run for their money and down to the wire. Foreman, Cooney, Shavers meanwhile, all blew past him. A younger Quarry would have as well, like he always did in sparring. His jaw let him down against the big hitters. But I didn't see a conspiracy there with Jimmy Young, just a hard fight with a blend of styles which made it razor close. Incidentally, I thought Young won, but it was so close I wasn't going to gripe about it.
Scartissue
The guy with the nickname Blinky in the middle in this photo below was all over the gym before Young's fight with Norton.
I should have been bright enough to put two and two together.
Ike Williams, Blinky Palermo, and Herman Taylor
[credit to kikibalt for posting this photo of sweetheart Blinky and friends on his Philly thread]
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
Blinky Palermo . . .
Norton and Young fight influenced by Blinky Palermo????
Palermo had no juice in boxing by the time Kenny Norton and Jimmy Young fought. Blinky Palermo, who once managed fighters for Frankie Carbo, was a non-issue in the 70's.
I knew Ken Norton, and he was fine until you put him in with somebody that could hit. I saw Jerry Quarry KO him at Main St. Gym. Norton had a huge ego, and all it took was a puncher to deflate it.
As for Eddie Jones, that was a real fighter. I saw Jones floor Jerry Quarry in the same ring that I saw Jerry KO Norton. "Bossman" fed Quarry a hook to the liver, and Jerry took his place on one knee until he could catch his breath. Just another day in the gym, sometimes you have good days, and sometimes you have bad days. You can't make to much out of this.
By the way, Norton didn't like Eddie Jones, especially after catching Eddie in bed with one of his ladies during training camp.
I find the biggest misconception of fans is thinking that everything proves something. The truth is, a guy my be able to kick my ass five days a week, or vice versa, but then there are those days when nobody is going to beat me, not for that moment, at least. There are a lot of intangibles in boxing. Not everything can be seen or felt, it just is.
Anybody who tries to define boxing or boxers with an absolute, ends up really confused. Somethings are just beyond comprehension.
-Rick
Palermo had no juice in boxing by the time Kenny Norton and Jimmy Young fought. Blinky Palermo, who once managed fighters for Frankie Carbo, was a non-issue in the 70's.
I knew Ken Norton, and he was fine until you put him in with somebody that could hit. I saw Jerry Quarry KO him at Main St. Gym. Norton had a huge ego, and all it took was a puncher to deflate it.
As for Eddie Jones, that was a real fighter. I saw Jones floor Jerry Quarry in the same ring that I saw Jerry KO Norton. "Bossman" fed Quarry a hook to the liver, and Jerry took his place on one knee until he could catch his breath. Just another day in the gym, sometimes you have good days, and sometimes you have bad days. You can't make to much out of this.
By the way, Norton didn't like Eddie Jones, especially after catching Eddie in bed with one of his ladies during training camp.
I find the biggest misconception of fans is thinking that everything proves something. The truth is, a guy my be able to kick my ass five days a week, or vice versa, but then there are those days when nobody is going to beat me, not for that moment, at least. There are a lot of intangibles in boxing. Not everything can be seen or felt, it just is.
Anybody who tries to define boxing or boxers with an absolute, ends up really confused. Somethings are just beyond comprehension.
-Rick
Re: Blinky Palermo . . .
Rick,Rick Farris wrote:Norton and Young fight influenced by Blinky Palermo????
Palermo had no juice in boxing by the time Kenny Norton and Jimmy Young fought. Blinky Palermo, who once managed fighters for Frankie Carbo, was a non-issue in the 70's.
I knew Ken Norton, and he was fine until you put him in with somebody that could hit. I saw Jerry Quarry KO him at Main St. Gym. Norton had a huge ego, and all it took was a puncher to deflate it.
As for Eddie Jones, that was a real fighter. I saw Jones floor Jerry Quarry in the same ring that I saw Jerry KO Norton. "Bossman" fed Quarry a hook to the liver, and Jerry took his place on one knee until he could catch his breath. Just another day in the gym, sometimes you have good days, and sometimes you have bad days. You can't make to much out of this.
By the way, Norton didn't like Eddie Jones, especially after catching Eddie in bed with one of his ladies during training camp.
I find the biggest misconception of fans is thinking that everything proves something. The truth is, a guy my be able to kick my ass five days a week, or vice versa, but then there are those days when nobody is going to beat me, not for that moment, at least. There are a lot of intangibles in boxing. Not everything can be seen or felt, it just is.
Anybody who tries to define boxing or boxers with an absolute, ends up really confused. Somethings are just beyond comprehension.
-Rick
About that sparring between Norton and Quarry, what was the knockout punch? And was it a heated sparring session between the two or was it more a case of Ken getting caught by a shot he didnt see coming? And by the way, congratuations on your marriage to your new bride. They say third time`s the charm and I hope in your case it will ring true... all the best to you and the missus.
And btw, did you ever see Danny`s fight against a japanese fighter by the name os Masanao Toyoshima? Barry told me this was one hell of a fight with the jap getting decked twice in the first round only to come back and floor Danny in the 3rd and have him on the verge of a KO until Danny landed that atomic right hand to end it. I know it was televised, but alas I have never been able to track down a copy, so whatever you can tell me about that fight I would appreciate it a great deal.
Re: Blinky Palermo . . .
The Norton-Young fight was "influenced' by Young being told not to use his body attack, to spend half of the fight resting on the ropes letting Norton punch away at him (Young never fought like that), etc.Rick Farris wrote:Norton and Young fight influenced by Blinky Palermo????
Palermo had no juice in boxing by the time Kenny Norton and Jimmy Young fought. Blinky Palermo, who once managed fighters for Frankie Carbo, was a non-issue in the 70's.
I knew Ken Norton, and he was fine until you put him in with somebody that could hit. I saw Jerry Quarry KO him at Main St. Gym. Norton had a huge ego, and all it took was a puncher to deflate it.
As for Eddie Jones, that was a real fighter. I saw Jones floor Jerry Quarry in the same ring that I saw Jerry KO Norton. "Bossman" fed Quarry a hook to the liver, and Jerry took his place on one knee until he could catch his breath. Just another day in the gym, sometimes you have good days, and sometimes you have bad days. You can't make to much out of this.
By the way, Norton didn't like Eddie Jones, especially after catching Eddie in bed with one of his ladies during training camp.
I find the biggest misconception of fans is thinking that everything proves something. The truth is, a guy my be able to kick my ass five days a week, or vice versa, but then there are those days when nobody is going to beat me, not for that moment, at least. There are a lot of intangibles in boxing. Not everything can be seen or felt, it just is.
Anybody who tries to define boxing or boxers with an absolute, ends up really confused. Somethings are just beyond comprehension.
-Rick
People who knew the result beforehand made money on that fight.
Blinky was in on it. He was suddenly around. He was excited.
Now tell me about Georgie Benton's fight with Rubin Carter.
"I knew Ken Norton, and he was fine until you put him in with somebody that could hit. "
Norton fought Ali--who knocked out Sonny Liston with a single punch--for 39 rounds without ever getting hurt. Norton sure had a great chin when he fought Ali. LOL
The Ali-Liston one "punch" Ko was on the level. Just ask Thomas Hauser.
Or Larry Merchant.
Young was a sparring partner for Norton when Young was a complete nobody.
Young played with Norton at that time--and was fired by Norton.
Norton didn't belong in the same ring with Young (let me qualify that--with a Young who hadn't been indoctrinated thoroughly by outsiders just as his longtime trainer Bob Brown's health was going out completely).
The last time I saw Bob Brown was just after he got back from Las Vegas after the Young-Norton fight.
He had been Young's trainer and Young's manager for Young's whole career (until Don King placed two additional 'managers' with Young in order for Young to fight Ali).
Bob Brown didn't seem to think Young's "performance" against Norton was on the level. But what did he know.
Young only had four fights where he was in shape and trained well--
against Lyle, Ali, Lyle, and Foreman.
After the Foreman fight Bob Brown was too ill to get Young up in the morning to run, and the low level trash around Young took over.
Young did 10% of what he could have done against Norton.
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
Jimmy Young . . .
My feelings on Jimmy Young:
Jimmy Young was one of those guys who was a nightmare to fight. One can think back to Joey Maxim, a boring guy to watch fight, but a guy who would pull off big wins.
Ali was a guy who usually got all the breaks, and this was never more obvious than his "gift" decision over Jimmy Young. Young was better than Norton, in my mind, and so was he better than a lot of the big name heavies of the era. He was also BORING! He was not a "fan's fighter", however, he was a fighter. He usually found a way to ruin an opponents evening.
By the way, I have an old friend who was a Nat'l GG. Heavyweight champ in '67, Clay Hodges. Clay holds two amateur wins over George Foreman, barely lost to Frazier in the '64 Olympic Trials, held at the Singer Bowl of the N.Y. World's fair. Clay also floored Jerry Quarry twice in his losing bid to rep L.A. in the '65 Golden Gloves, that Quarry won in big fashion in Kansas City, KOing five straight. When Clay Hodges made his pro debut, his opponent was Jimmy young. Clay scored an easy decision win.
As for Ali's punching power, well, he cracked pretty good with a right, but nothing that did more than wear an opponent down.
As for Larry Merchant, we all know Larry was at the fight (Ali-Liston 2), we can see his the open-mouthed surprise on his face if you look right between Ali's legs into the crowd, as Ali stands over Liston, who casually let himself down to the canvas, careful not to injury himself on the way down. When it comes to opinion, Merchant has a right to his, as unqualified as it might be. How many fights does a man have to watch, clueless, before his opinion is considered valid? Every once in awhile Larry Merchant makes an intelligent comment, however, it's not a comment made on experience or true knowledge, just luck. The HBO crew has contributed a great deal to the "misunderstanding" to boxing.
C'mon, if ANYBODY consideres that a good shot, I mean, here was an ARM punch, thrown while his body was moving backwards. Yes it landed, but all one need do is watch how boxers fall, and you know that Sonny Liston was not unconcious.
Ali did the job with lots of punches, and lots of breaks. Ali didn't bring great boxing skills into the ring, what he brought was great courage, great reflexes, top conditioning and a WILL second to none. He also had an IRON chin, the reason he's so messed up today. But as far as boxing "skill" is concerned, the guy held his hands low, couldn't punch, pulled away from shots putting him right in the path of any hook thrownat him. This worked real well when Ali was much younger than a very small, over-the-hill group of contenders that existed when he won the title. When he came back, everybody made excuses about the three year break hurting Ali. The truth is, those months off preserved Ali. against the younger, bigger and better crop of the 70's, Ali was no longer unbeatable.
I love Ali, but people have made him into much more than what he was. A smaller, equally fast Jack Dempsey, the one that fought Willard, takes Ali 2-outta-three, however, the Dempsey that lost to Tunney, would have played Hell catching Muhammad. I guess it just depends on what day of the week? Somedays we do better than on others.
My opinion only, except for the Ali punching power thing. Nobody ever moaned over being frozen by Ali's hardest blows. And by the way, for fun, look how strange it looked when Zora Folley went down. That was funny.
I'm not a fan of Ken Norton's. I still recall how he was bombed out by Willie Ketchum's blown up light-heavy, Jose Luis Garcia. I was scheduled to make my pro debut on the undercard of that match, but my opponent didn't sow, so I just enjoyed watching KEnny embarrassed by Garcia, who quickly fell apart withing the following year. Jose Luis Garcia has a chronic Syphlis (spelling?), his body eventually broke down. Norton dedn't jump into a re-match to avenge the loss, instead, he waited a few years until Garcia was totally shot.
Eddie Jones, now there was a special boxer, I thought.
Rick Farris
Jimmy Young was one of those guys who was a nightmare to fight. One can think back to Joey Maxim, a boring guy to watch fight, but a guy who would pull off big wins.
Ali was a guy who usually got all the breaks, and this was never more obvious than his "gift" decision over Jimmy Young. Young was better than Norton, in my mind, and so was he better than a lot of the big name heavies of the era. He was also BORING! He was not a "fan's fighter", however, he was a fighter. He usually found a way to ruin an opponents evening.
By the way, I have an old friend who was a Nat'l GG. Heavyweight champ in '67, Clay Hodges. Clay holds two amateur wins over George Foreman, barely lost to Frazier in the '64 Olympic Trials, held at the Singer Bowl of the N.Y. World's fair. Clay also floored Jerry Quarry twice in his losing bid to rep L.A. in the '65 Golden Gloves, that Quarry won in big fashion in Kansas City, KOing five straight. When Clay Hodges made his pro debut, his opponent was Jimmy young. Clay scored an easy decision win.
As for Ali's punching power, well, he cracked pretty good with a right, but nothing that did more than wear an opponent down.
As for Larry Merchant, we all know Larry was at the fight (Ali-Liston 2), we can see his the open-mouthed surprise on his face if you look right between Ali's legs into the crowd, as Ali stands over Liston, who casually let himself down to the canvas, careful not to injury himself on the way down. When it comes to opinion, Merchant has a right to his, as unqualified as it might be. How many fights does a man have to watch, clueless, before his opinion is considered valid? Every once in awhile Larry Merchant makes an intelligent comment, however, it's not a comment made on experience or true knowledge, just luck. The HBO crew has contributed a great deal to the "misunderstanding" to boxing.
C'mon, if ANYBODY consideres that a good shot, I mean, here was an ARM punch, thrown while his body was moving backwards. Yes it landed, but all one need do is watch how boxers fall, and you know that Sonny Liston was not unconcious.
Ali did the job with lots of punches, and lots of breaks. Ali didn't bring great boxing skills into the ring, what he brought was great courage, great reflexes, top conditioning and a WILL second to none. He also had an IRON chin, the reason he's so messed up today. But as far as boxing "skill" is concerned, the guy held his hands low, couldn't punch, pulled away from shots putting him right in the path of any hook thrownat him. This worked real well when Ali was much younger than a very small, over-the-hill group of contenders that existed when he won the title. When he came back, everybody made excuses about the three year break hurting Ali. The truth is, those months off preserved Ali. against the younger, bigger and better crop of the 70's, Ali was no longer unbeatable.
I love Ali, but people have made him into much more than what he was. A smaller, equally fast Jack Dempsey, the one that fought Willard, takes Ali 2-outta-three, however, the Dempsey that lost to Tunney, would have played Hell catching Muhammad. I guess it just depends on what day of the week? Somedays we do better than on others.
My opinion only, except for the Ali punching power thing. Nobody ever moaned over being frozen by Ali's hardest blows. And by the way, for fun, look how strange it looked when Zora Folley went down. That was funny.
I'm not a fan of Ken Norton's. I still recall how he was bombed out by Willie Ketchum's blown up light-heavy, Jose Luis Garcia. I was scheduled to make my pro debut on the undercard of that match, but my opponent didn't sow, so I just enjoyed watching KEnny embarrassed by Garcia, who quickly fell apart withing the following year. Jose Luis Garcia has a chronic Syphlis (spelling?), his body eventually broke down. Norton dedn't jump into a re-match to avenge the loss, instead, he waited a few years until Garcia was totally shot.
Eddie Jones, now there was a special boxer, I thought.
Rick Farris
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
Lausse . . .
Lausse . . .
Thanks for the kind wishes. I just have to say that I really don't rememeber the Lopez-Toyoshima fight clearly. I do rememebr it was one of several in which Danny had to climb off the deck to win. Another was his first defense Jose Torres.
I love Danny Lopez, and it's been great being a part of the HOF activites here in L.A., where I see Danny & Bonnie Lopez, regularly. One of the best days I've had in ages was last summer's California Boxing HOF banquet, when Frank Baltazar Sr. was inducted. Danny was there, as was Bobby Chacon, Randy Shields, Duarte, Davila, and of course, the entire Baltazar clan.
I'll get back with you, Lausse.
-Rick Farris
Thanks for the kind wishes. I just have to say that I really don't rememeber the Lopez-Toyoshima fight clearly. I do rememebr it was one of several in which Danny had to climb off the deck to win. Another was his first defense Jose Torres.
I love Danny Lopez, and it's been great being a part of the HOF activites here in L.A., where I see Danny & Bonnie Lopez, regularly. One of the best days I've had in ages was last summer's California Boxing HOF banquet, when Frank Baltazar Sr. was inducted. Danny was there, as was Bobby Chacon, Randy Shields, Duarte, Davila, and of course, the entire Baltazar clan.
I'll get back with you, Lausse.
-Rick Farris
Re: Jimmy Young . . .
Rick,Rick Farris wrote: By the way, I have an old friend who was a Nat'l GG. Heavyweight champ in '67, Clay Hodges. Clay holds two amateur wins over George Foreman, barely lost to Frazier in the '64 Olympic Trials, held at the Singer Bowl of the N.Y. World's fair. Clay also floored Jerry Quarry twice in his losing bid to rep L.A. in the '65 Golden Gloves, that Quarry won in big fashion in Kansas City, KOing five straight. When Clay Hodges made his pro debut, his opponent was Jimmy young. Clay scored an easy decision win.
Rick Farris
You aren’t going to talk to me again after this,
but here is a post by dagos on an earlier thread called Boxers with short primes?
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 92&start=0
_____________________________________________________________
dagos writes:
Your observations about Young are interesting. Especially about the element that was around him. I posted this before,but
I saw Young go into the tank against a very bad fighter here in San Diego,Clay Hodges. Young had about 4 fights as did Hodges. Young came out from Philly and nobody knew anything about him. But everyone knew Hodges was a stiff. Young has Hodges down twice in the first round and doesn't throw a punch for the next 5 rounds and loses a decision. After the first frame two old guys in suits turn around and want to bet me 20 bucks Hodges is going to win. After the last round I'm reaching for my wallet and the two old guys laugh and tell me to keep my money. The fight was fixed.
My question is how far back and how long was he involved with the wrong crowd? By the way,Hodges next fight is in LA and gets knocked out and his jaw broken by big muscled fughter by the name of Kenyata Huckinbill. It was Hodges last fight.
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
Re: Jimmy Young . . .
Rick,
You aren’t going to talk to me again after this,
Why not? Everybody in L.A. knows that Clay Hadges was a "Career Amateur". This was his designation, he did well against guys in three rounders, even some who'd go on to rule the heavyweight division.
The only reason I even mentioned his name in the same breath with those we are discussing, is because we are discussing Jimmy Young, a man who for some reason (legit, fixed, or whatever.) could not find his way to victory over L.A.'s "career amateur". Now if your boy took a dive, well, that's on him. For whatever reason, he just wasn't good enough to win that night.
Most fights aren't really fixed today, with regard to a definitive outcome, guys often just quit. Fighters are weird, they don't think like others, they can't, if they did (or maybe I should say "we did"), then they wouldn't fight for a living. There are easier ways to make a buck, 'ya know. Boxers are unpredictable. I knw you get off on the mob aspect of the game, that's cool, I know much of the history, how it effected the West Coast in the days, when N.Y. called the shots. However, those mob boys are nothing but memories today. The old "Mustache Peats" are deader than Casey's nuts.
Today. corporate America is the "bad element" running boxing. Not guys with names like Blinky, or Bugsy, or Guido. Maybe in some hayseed Mid West town, local "boys" still have the small town minds believeing that the "mob" runs things. All the mob does today is run, run away from the Fed's and their disloyal co-horts who plea bargain for a new identity.
There was a writer who posted on another site I was involved with. The guy did time, and while incarcerated, he was fed a sandwich of old school mob BS. A bunch of tired old gangsters, adding a little spice to the truth.
I mean, the music industry is where you find today's excuse of a gangsta, what a joke, huh?
And as for my not speaking with you again, I will address you, or anybody, who makes a serious statement about boxing. You forget one thing, I pride myself on my background in boxing, however, one thing that a fighter discovers is that he never stops learning. As long as people are willing to have an open mind, it's possible to learn something new. I find much of what you write quite compelling.
I've just learned over the years it's best not to assume things. George Parnassus and Suey Welch taught me something regarding this decades back.
Luckily, my experience usually identifies those "who know boxing", and those "who think they know boxing". When the BS starts to overtake the lessons to be learned, I find a new venue. However, I will never back down from an opportunity to learn something new, or consider another man's point-of-view. I'm not a bitch, Granberry, nor will disrespect anybody here because they see things different.
Plan for me to hang around long enough to learn a little, and share a little.
-Ricardo
You aren’t going to talk to me again after this,
Why not? Everybody in L.A. knows that Clay Hadges was a "Career Amateur". This was his designation, he did well against guys in three rounders, even some who'd go on to rule the heavyweight division.
The only reason I even mentioned his name in the same breath with those we are discussing, is because we are discussing Jimmy Young, a man who for some reason (legit, fixed, or whatever.) could not find his way to victory over L.A.'s "career amateur". Now if your boy took a dive, well, that's on him. For whatever reason, he just wasn't good enough to win that night.
Most fights aren't really fixed today, with regard to a definitive outcome, guys often just quit. Fighters are weird, they don't think like others, they can't, if they did (or maybe I should say "we did"), then they wouldn't fight for a living. There are easier ways to make a buck, 'ya know. Boxers are unpredictable. I knw you get off on the mob aspect of the game, that's cool, I know much of the history, how it effected the West Coast in the days, when N.Y. called the shots. However, those mob boys are nothing but memories today. The old "Mustache Peats" are deader than Casey's nuts.
Today. corporate America is the "bad element" running boxing. Not guys with names like Blinky, or Bugsy, or Guido. Maybe in some hayseed Mid West town, local "boys" still have the small town minds believeing that the "mob" runs things. All the mob does today is run, run away from the Fed's and their disloyal co-horts who plea bargain for a new identity.
There was a writer who posted on another site I was involved with. The guy did time, and while incarcerated, he was fed a sandwich of old school mob BS. A bunch of tired old gangsters, adding a little spice to the truth.
I mean, the music industry is where you find today's excuse of a gangsta, what a joke, huh?
And as for my not speaking with you again, I will address you, or anybody, who makes a serious statement about boxing. You forget one thing, I pride myself on my background in boxing, however, one thing that a fighter discovers is that he never stops learning. As long as people are willing to have an open mind, it's possible to learn something new. I find much of what you write quite compelling.
I've just learned over the years it's best not to assume things. George Parnassus and Suey Welch taught me something regarding this decades back.
Luckily, my experience usually identifies those "who know boxing", and those "who think they know boxing". When the BS starts to overtake the lessons to be learned, I find a new venue. However, I will never back down from an opportunity to learn something new, or consider another man's point-of-view. I'm not a bitch, Granberry, nor will disrespect anybody here because they see things different.
Plan for me to hang around long enough to learn a little, and share a little.
-Ricardo
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Jimmy Young . . .
Rick,I was at that fight in San Diego when Hodges fought Young. It was Hodges's 4th fight. He was popular in San Diego because he'd been a Marine at MCRD. I was sitting ringside. Hodges,to me, was a deck of cards ready to be exposed. Jimmy Young is announced in the ring. He'd had 2 fights. He was an unknown. The opening round Young has Hodges down twice within a minute. I'm expecting Young to finish him off in the next round. I tell my friend who's sitting with me that Hodges was nothing. Just then two old guys in suits sitting in front of us turn around and tell me"I've got 20 bucks saying Hodges wins" After seeing Hodges totally dominated in the first round,I tell the old guy"You're on"Rick Farris wrote:My feelings on Jimmy Young:
Jimmy Young was one of those guys who was a nightmare to fight. One can think back to Joey Maxim, a boring guy to watch fight, but a guy who would pull off big wins.
Ali was a guy who usually got all the breaks, and this was never more obvious than his "gift" decision over Jimmy Young. Young was better than Norton, in my mind, and so was he better than a lot of the big name heavies of the era. He was also BORING! He was not a "fan's fighter", however, he was a fighter. He usually found a way to ruin an opponents evening.
By the way, I have an old friend who was a Nat'l GG. Heavyweight champ in '67, Clay Hodges. Clay holds two amateur wins over George Foreman, barely lost to Frazier in the '64 Olympic Trials, held at the Singer Bowl of the N.Y. World's fair. Clay also floored Jerry Quarry twice in his losing bid to rep L.A. in the '65 Golden Gloves, that Quarry won in big fashion in Kansas City, KOing five straight. When Clay Hodges made his pro debut, his opponent was Jimmy young. Clay scored an easy decision win.
As for Ali's punching power, well, he cracked pretty good with a right, but nothing that did more than wear an opponent down.
As for Larry Merchant, we all know Larry was at the fight (Ali-Liston 2), we can see his the open-mouthed surprise on his face if you look right between Ali's legs into the crowd, as Ali stands over Liston, who casually let himself down to the canvas, careful not to injury himself on the way down. When it comes to opinion, Merchant has a right to his, as unqualified as it might be. How many fights does a man have to watch, clueless, before his opinion is considered valid? Every once in awhile Larry Merchant makes an intelligent comment, however, it's not a comment made on experience or true knowledge, just luck. The HBO crew has contributed a great deal to the "misunderstanding" to boxing.
C'mon, if ANYBODY consideres that a good shot, I mean, here was an ARM punch, thrown while his body was moving backwards. Yes it landed, but all one need do is watch how boxers fall, and you know that Sonny Liston was not unconcious.
Ali did the job with lots of punches, and lots of breaks. Ali didn't bring great boxing skills into the ring, what he brought was great courage, great reflexes, top conditioning and a WILL second to none. He also had an IRON chin, the reason he's so messed up today. But as far as boxing "skill" is concerned, the guy held his hands low, couldn't punch, pulled away from shots putting him right in the path of any hook thrownat him. This worked real well when Ali was much younger than a very small, over-the-hill group of contenders that existed when he won the title. When he came back, everybody made excuses about the three year break hurting Ali. The truth is, those months off preserved Ali. against the younger, bigger and better crop of the 70's, Ali was no longer unbeatable.
I love Ali, but people have made him into much more than what he was. A smaller, equally fast Jack Dempsey, the one that fought Willard, takes Ali 2-outta-three, however, the Dempsey that lost to Tunney, would have played Hell catching Muhammad. I guess it just depends on what day of the week? Somedays we do better than on others.
My opinion only, except for the Ali punching power thing. Nobody ever moaned over being frozen by Ali's hardest blows. And by the way, for fun, look how strange it looked when Zora Folley went down. That was funny.
I'm not a fan of Ken Norton's. I still recall how he was bombed out by Willie Ketchum's blown up light-heavy, Jose Luis Garcia. I was scheduled to make my pro debut on the undercard of that match, but my opponent didn't sow, so I just enjoyed watching KEnny embarrassed by Garcia, who quickly fell apart withing the following year. Jose Luis Garcia has a chronic Syphlis (spelling?), his body eventually broke down. Norton dedn't jump into a re-match to avenge the loss, instead, he waited a few years until Garcia was totally shot.
Eddie Jones, now there was a special boxer, I thought.
Rick Farris
It was a 6 rounder. Young doesn't throw a punch for the rest of the fight. By the 4th,I figured the old guys in front of me and my friend had suckered me. At the end of 6,I start reaching for my wallet. One of the old guys turns around and says"Keep your dough Sonny,we knew Hodges was gonna win" They get up and leave laughing. They didn't even stay for the main event. Hodges's next fight is up in LA. against a heavily muscled guy by the name of Kenyatta Huckinbill. He breaks Hodges's jaw and knocks him out. Hodges retired after that fight.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Rick,I didn't read what Granberry had posted. But I'm telling the truth. I was surprised when Jimmy Young later became a big name fighter. He certainly was very talented. He showed a lot in the first minute against Hodges. I thought Young could box with the best of them and gave Ali a lot of problems. DAGO
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Bossman Jones was Norton's sparring partner for the first Ali fight in San Diego. He was a better sparring partner than I thought Ali was working with.(Tony Doyle and Billy Joiner). Norton trained very hard for that fight. Ali didn't train as hard as Norton.
Both guys trained at a fancy hotel in Mission Valley. Ali had the microphone in his hand a lot of the time entertaining the audience. After Ali worked,Norton would arrive. Just about everybody cleared out. I wanted to see him train. He definitely hit the heavy bag harder than Ali and his sparring was more intense. Ali ,when he sparred,hung mostly on the ropes getting punishment. He did this a lot when he sparred because he knew he was going to get hit a lot.
You're right about Norton being a moody guy. When he just started fighting,I sparred with him. He roughed me up pretty good. If his handlers hadn't stopped him,I think he would have killed me. He knew I had never fought before. I sparred with him twice more after that and he would pull his punches more,but I always got the sense that he was a bully. That's why I think he had trouble with big punchers. He couldn't bully them. He told me he wasn't afraid of Ali's punching power.
Both guys trained at a fancy hotel in Mission Valley. Ali had the microphone in his hand a lot of the time entertaining the audience. After Ali worked,Norton would arrive. Just about everybody cleared out. I wanted to see him train. He definitely hit the heavy bag harder than Ali and his sparring was more intense. Ali ,when he sparred,hung mostly on the ropes getting punishment. He did this a lot when he sparred because he knew he was going to get hit a lot.
You're right about Norton being a moody guy. When he just started fighting,I sparred with him. He roughed me up pretty good. If his handlers hadn't stopped him,I think he would have killed me. He knew I had never fought before. I sparred with him twice more after that and he would pull his punches more,but I always got the sense that he was a bully. That's why I think he had trouble with big punchers. He couldn't bully them. He told me he wasn't afraid of Ali's punching power.
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scartissue
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1893
- Joined: 31 Mar 2002, 20:00
My opinion of Jimmy Young was that he was vastly talented but very very frustrating to watch. By that I mean there were times I would be screaming at the TV set, "throw your punches". He had that Joe Bugner/Juan Laporte mindset. And by that I mean, you had to set a fire under his arse to get him going. I disagree with Granberry on his style. I never felt he was a body puncher, strictly a head-hunter with absolutely no punch whatsoever. He would fight in beautiful flurries, then stop. He could take a great punch but mainly, Jimmy was lazy. His weight balooned up after the Norton fight and just never got it under control again. Losing twice to Ocasio was unforgivable and the weight kept going out of control. Suddenly he was fighting on TV with a big gut and a pair of hooters. Anyone unlucky enough to have seen Young against Greg Page like I did would have thought they were watching two chicks stripped to the waist. Young had a short prime which probably started around the time of the Garcia fight or the second Shavers fight and ended at the Norton fight. But when he blazed bright he was damn good.
Scartissue
Scartissue
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
The Art of Listening & Learning . . .
The Art of Listening & Learning . . .
One of the things I appreciate is knowing the TRUTH, or at least facts that lead to the truth. I was not in San Diego the night Clay Hodges had his second pro fight (unless Boxrec. is incorrect?) against Young. I did know Clay, the good, bad, etc. He was not destined to go far in the pros, for one thing, he was way too old.
Guys, that was good to know about the Hodges-Young thing, about Young's performance, etc. However, even a dynamic KO over Hodges would not have been that major an accomplishment in relation to what he would accomplish. By the way, unless Boxrec is incorrect, it was Young's fourth pro fight.
Speaking of heavyweights, I was asked what punch Quarry used to KO Norton at the Main St. Gym? I realy don't remember, I just recall him dropping in a heap, straight down. At first, appeared like it was a body shot. However, he was out of it, and got up slowly. Bill Slaten pulled him out.
-Rick Farris
One of the things I appreciate is knowing the TRUTH, or at least facts that lead to the truth. I was not in San Diego the night Clay Hodges had his second pro fight (unless Boxrec. is incorrect?) against Young. I did know Clay, the good, bad, etc. He was not destined to go far in the pros, for one thing, he was way too old.
Guys, that was good to know about the Hodges-Young thing, about Young's performance, etc. However, even a dynamic KO over Hodges would not have been that major an accomplishment in relation to what he would accomplish. By the way, unless Boxrec is incorrect, it was Young's fourth pro fight.
Speaking of heavyweights, I was asked what punch Quarry used to KO Norton at the Main St. Gym? I realy don't remember, I just recall him dropping in a heap, straight down. At first, appeared like it was a body shot. However, he was out of it, and got up slowly. Bill Slaten pulled him out.
-Rick Farris
scartissue wrote:
My opinion of Jimmy Young... I never felt he was a body puncher,
Tell that to Lyle, Ali and Foreman. LOL
strictly a head-hunter with absolutely no punch whatsoever.
Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.
The doctor who examined Foreman after his fight with Young said Foreman had a concussion.
I'd hate to see what condition these guys would have been in
if Young had been able to punch.
.
My opinion of Jimmy Young... I never felt he was a body puncher,
Tell that to Lyle, Ali and Foreman. LOL
strictly a head-hunter with absolutely no punch whatsoever.
Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.
The doctor who examined Foreman after his fight with Young said Foreman had a concussion.
I'd hate to see what condition these guys would have been in
if Young had been able to punch.
.
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Rick Farris
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7200
- Joined: 15 Feb 2008, 16:04
Young couldn't hit- agreed!
granberry wrote:
Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.
Granberry. Let me tell you a little story about broken ear drums and power.
I know those who never felt the crack of leather may consider breaking an opponents ear drum, as an exhibition of raw power. But in reality, a little woman, with but a minimum of strength, weighing less than 100 lbs. can bitch slap her 230 pound boyfriend against the ear and pop that ear drum with ease.
Next time you try to convince an ex-fighter like scartissue, and yeah, he was a fighter, you may wish to re-think your choice of examples.
-Rick
Ali had a broken eardrum after his fight with Young.
Granberry. Let me tell you a little story about broken ear drums and power.
I know those who never felt the crack of leather may consider breaking an opponents ear drum, as an exhibition of raw power. But in reality, a little woman, with but a minimum of strength, weighing less than 100 lbs. can bitch slap her 230 pound boyfriend against the ear and pop that ear drum with ease.
Next time you try to convince an ex-fighter like scartissue, and yeah, he was a fighter, you may wish to re-think your choice of examples.
-Rick
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: The Art of Listening & Learning . . .
Rick Farris wrote:The Art of Listening & Learning . . .
One of the things I appreciate is knowing the TRUTH, or at least facts that lead to the truth. I was not in San Diego the night Clay Hodges had his second pro fight (unless Boxrec. is incorrect?) against Young. I did know Clay, the good, bad, etc. He was not destined to go far in the pros, for one thing, he was way too old.
Guys, that was good to know about the Hodges-Young thing, about Young's performance, etc. However, even a dynamic KO over Hodges would not have been that major an accomplishment in relation to what he would accomplish. By the way, unless Boxrec is incorrect, it was Young's fourth pro fight.
Speaking of heavyweights, I was asked what punch Quarry used to KO Norton at the Main St. Gym? I realy don't remember, I just recall him dropping in a heap, straight down. At first, appeared like it was a body shot. However, he was out of it, and got up slowly. Bill Slaten pulled him out.
-Rick Farris
Rick,I remember for the longest time BoxRec had listed the Hodges/Young fight being in LA. I'll make this short because the guys have heard it before,but you and Frank will get a kick out of this. When Ali was training for Norton in San Diego,Deacon Jones came to watch Ali workout. Jones had been traded to the Chargers. His career was in decline. Well Ali is telling jokes and predicting that "Ken Fartin' better watch his ass",when Jones decides to yell out from the back of the room something like"You're not so tough"(you think this idiot would have learned his lesson from Quarry that night with Jim Healy on TV)
Ali stops talking and gazes out to see who said that. He sees Jones with his arms folded across his chest and a big smile. "Who's that ?"shouts Ali.
Someone answers,"Why that's Deacon Jones."
"What's that? Some kind of wrestler?"Ali said. He's getting pissed and the Deacon has just stepped in it. Ali goes to the corner and tells Bundini Brown to give him some gloves. Ali runs to the ropes and flings the gloves at the Deacon. They plop at his feet.
"Put 'em on sucker!"orders Ali. "Get up here because I'm going to kick your ass in front of everybody!"
Now the heads turn towards the Deacon. He ain't smiling anymore.