What if Hatton....

[EddieShredder]

What if Hatton's next three fights were;

Luazcano
Mallignaggi
Witter

and he won all three? What would people think of him then??

This isn't meant to be a thread about how he's avoiding Witter etc, there's enough of them about.... but if as planned he fights Luazcano and Malignaggi this year, and then fights Witter early next year - winning all three, how would peoples opinions change?

[tony3]

I think the perception of those victories would depend greatly upon the time-frame in which they were accomplished.

If he beat all three convincingly within about 18 months, then all but the most ardent sceptic would have to give him his due.

The biggest problem is that father time is creeping up on Junior Witter and if Hatton was to face and defeat Witter after the aforementioned time-frame, he would doubtless be hounded by accusations of preying on a boxer well past his prime (despite the fact that historically, pressure fighters like Hatton tend to burn out far more quickly than your average switch-hitting slickster).

[observer1]

I think the perception of those victories would depend greatly upon the time-frame in which they were accomplished.

If he beat all three convincingly within about 18 months, then all but the most ardent sceptic would have to give him his due.

The biggest problem is that father time is creeping up on Junior Witter and if Hatton was to face and defeat Witter after the aforementioned time-frame, he would doubtless be hounded by accusations of preying on a boxer well past his prime (despite the fact that historically, pressure fighters like Hatton tend to burn out far more quickly than your average switch-hitting slickster).

tony3 hits the hammer on the nail

[TJAY]

What if Junior Witters loses his next fight ?

[Big Pussy]

The biggest problem is that father time is creeping up on Junior Witter and if Hatton was to face and defeat Witter after the aforementioned time-frame, he would doubtless be hounded by accusations of preying on a boxer well past his prime (despite the fact that historically, pressure fighters like Hatton tend to burn out far more quickly than your average switch-hitting slickster).

I think Witter has a look of the Hopkins about him. Lives the life, no alcohol, no smoking, loves to train etc etc. I think he could be around for sometime. Certainly a lot longer than Hatton.

That's why I think he should get on with his own business. Hoover up the belts at 140 and give Hatton no option but to face him. The longer it takes to make the fight- the more likely Witter annihilates Hatton.

[Chambers2]

What if Hatton's next three fights were;

Luazcano
Mallignaggi
Witter

and he won all three? What would people think of him then??

This isn't meant to be a thread about how he's avoiding Witter etc, there's enough of them about.... but if as planned he fights Luazcano and Malignaggi this year, and then fights Witter early next year - winning all three, how would peoples opinions change?

I'd be happy with that as long as Witter is in the plans and they fight each other irrespective of previous results against Paulie and Juan

[glahn]

I reckon those NEED to be his next three fights, but I think the much more likely scenario is Lazcano (which I'm assuming is part of the new three fight deal with HBO?), Malignaggi and then Pacquiao. The only way he'll fight Witter, in my opinion, is if the Pacquiao fight falls through and/or Witter has a couple of notable wins in the meantime. US TV is still very cold on Witter from the Judah fight, I reckon.

[Carbo]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever.

Whatever the critics say, Hatton beat a Tszyu who had shown no signs of slipping, having just come off a demolition job of his long time number-one contender, Sharmba Mitchell, in a fight which the Russo-Australian was deemed by many to be underdog. And, let's not forget that Tszyu is an all-time great, perhaps with the caveat of being a division specific all time great. He was a stellar amateur with, I understand, 300-plus fights, had cleaned out the division pre-Hatton, could box beautifully (Tackie) or destroy (Judah, Mitchell), and his galaxy right hand was one of the few weapons genuinely feared in boxing. Tszyu may not be up with Chavez or Pryor at 140, but he's on the next level, just below.

Although I can accept a 'styles-make-fights' argument to slightly diminish Hatton's achievement, I will under no circumstances brook the ‘faded-Tszyu argument’ put forth by revisionist historians who forget real events or small requirements like facts and evidence when they view them though the goggles of hindsight and prejudice, and I'll argue all day and night with anyone who disagrees.

Therefore, having beaten an a-level, division-specific all time great, half decent d-level opposition fighters such as Urango, Magee, and Maussa, four, at the time, c-level opponents in Phillips, Tackie, Olivera and Collazo, as well as a maybe b- probably c-level opponent in Castillo, if Hatton goes on to clean out the division, including beating Witter, I would argue that this constitutes a hell of a career.

However, I simply can't see it. Hatton has had trouble throughout his career with southpaws and runners. Where on a domestic level he could overwhelm them, on an international level, even at below true world class, he simply can't. Furthermore, Hatton, I think any sensible observer would agree, reached his absolute peak against Tszyu -- and his peak in terms of boxing at Tackie -- and has slid ever since.

An increasing reliance on power and strength, his abject lack of lateral or head movement, and his straight line attacks and retreats have become pervasive in Hatton's post-Tszyu performances.

Lazcano is the kind of orthodox boxer that Hatton always looks wonderful against, which may get some excited and writing off the Mayweather fight as a loss against a true, cross-weight all timer; but I would argue that life would be very different against slippery, quicksilver (however limited and over-hyped) Mallignanni or Witter.

I'm not saying that Hatton would lose both, because he's still an exceptional fighter, but I suspect one or both might be close and bruising enough for Hatton to call it a day.

And I think these arguments have been trawled enough times. I’d actually rather talk about how exceptional and under-valued Witter is.

[Sweet P]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever.

Whatever the critics say, Hatton beat a Tszyu who had shown no signs of slipping, having just come off a demolition job of his long time number-one contender, Sharmba Mitchell, in a fight which the Russo-Australian was deemed by many to be underdog. And, let's not forget that Tszyu is an all-time great, perhaps with the caveat of being a division specific all time great. He was a stellar amateur with, I understand, 300-plus fights, had cleaned out the division pre-Hatton, could box beautifully (Tackie) or destroy (Judah, Mitchell), and his galaxy right hand was one of the few weapons genuinely feared in boxing. Tszyu may not be up with Chavez or Pryor at 140, but he's on the next level, just below.

Although I can accept a 'styles-make-fights' argument to slightly diminish Hatton's achievement, I will under no circumstances brook the ‘faded-Tszyu argument’ put forth by revisionist historians who forget real events or small requirements like facts and evidence when they view them though the goggles of hindsight and prejudice, and I'll argue all day and night with anyone who disagrees.

Therefore, having beaten an a-level, division-specific all time great, half decent d-level opposition fighters such as Urango, Magee, and Maussa, four, at the time, c-level opponents in Phillips, Tackie, Olivera and Collazo, as well as a maybe b- probably c-level opponent in Castillo, if Hatton goes on to clean out the division, including beating Witter, I would argue that this constitutes a hell of a career.

However, I simply can't see it. Hatton has had trouble throughout his career with southpaws and runners. Where on a domestic level he could overwhelm them, on an international level, even at below true world class, he simply can't. Furthermore, Hatton, I think any sensible observer would agree, reached his absolute peak against Tszyu -- and his peak in terms of boxing at Tackie -- and has slid ever since.

An increasing reliance on power and strength, his abject lack of lateral or head movement, and his straight line attacks and retreats have become pervasive in Hatton's post-Tszyu performances.

Lazcano is the kind of orthodox boxer that Hatton always looks wonderful against, which may get some excited and writing off the Mayweather fight as a loss against a true, cross-weight all timer; but I would argue that life would be very different against slippery, quicksilver (however limited and over-hyped) Mallignanni or Witter.

I'm not saying that Hatton would lose both, because he's still an exceptional fighter, but I suspect one or both might be close and bruising enough for Hatton to call it a day.

And I think these arguments have been trawled enough times. I’d actually rather talk about how exceptional and under-valued Witter is.

Tszyu had shown signs of slipping for a few fights before Hatton, Lieja did well in the early rounds and Mitchell also.

I dont know whether Tszyu had slipped or it was the fact he had fought 3 times in 3 years For about 10 rounds all up .

I agree with the rest of your comments but and i dont think Witter has proven he deserves a crack at Hatton. If Witter unifies his belt or fights some big name fighters to actually bring something to the table then he deserves a fight with Hatton.

[scurlaruntings]

What if Junior Witters loses his next fight ?

This is what Hatton has been banking on for the last 7 years. It hasnt happened yet. But certainly if he does looses his next fight the bout goes off the boil and we are denied the best All British clash for a decade because of Hatton.

[scurlaruntings]

If Witter unifies his belt or fights some big name fighters to actually bring something to the table then he deserves a fight with Hatton.

Thats absolute nonsense. Witter has been high on Hattons heels all throughout his career. His is now the legitimate number 2 in the division and deserves his shot. To think anything less is infantile and shallow. What does Lazcano bring other than over a years worth of inactivity and a handful of fights at 140? What did Hatton bring to the table when he got his shot at Kostya? The WBU? What did he bring to the table vs PBF? A belt at 147? In both cases he brought nothing. Other than his name his cheer leading fans and the brilliant promotion by Warren which has left him in excellent sted the facts remain he brought nothing to either bout.

[DG.]

What if Junior Witters loses his next fight ?

#

Thats what Hatton has been waiting for.

He will be still be waiting.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

He isnt fighting or beating Witter anyway but even if he did he wouldnt be top5 with those sort of fighters up there. You could even drop Sam Langford in at 140 as he started his career at 135. Duran fought at 140 a few times and would eat Hatton up. Then theres the second tier like Cervantes (top 70s champ beat Loche/DeJesus), Loche (made loads of defenses and had 1 of the best defenses ever)

[DG.]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

He isnt fighting or beating Witter anyway but even if he did he wouldnt be top5 with those sort of fighters up there. You could even drop Sam Langford in at 140 as he started his career at 135. Duran fought at 140 a few times and would eat Hatton up. Then theres the second tier like Cervantes (top 70s champ beat Loche/DeJesus), Loche (made loads of defenses and had 1 of the best defenses ever)

Hatton is JUST A MODERN DAY FIGHTER

Just fightt load of over the hill or not very good fighters and then have 1 or 2 big fights and have people say you are a legend.

FFS, Hatton is not even top 100.

Having lots of fans and making Milliions does not mean you are a Legend.

[Horse]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

He isnt fighting or beating Witter anyway but even if he did he wouldnt be top5 with those sort of fighters up there. You could even drop Sam Langford in at 140 as he started his career at 135. Duran fought at 140 a few times and would eat Hatton up. Then theres the second tier like Cervantes (top 70s champ beat Loche/DeJesus), Loche (made loads of defenses and had 1 of the best defenses ever)

Mayweather did bugger all at 140. Hatton will be much higher than Mayweather in the all time 140 lbs rankings.

[DG.]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

He isnt fighting or beating Witter anyway but even if he did he wouldnt be top5 with those sort of fighters up there. You could even drop Sam Langford in at 140 as he started his career at 135. Duran fought at 140 a few times and would eat Hatton up. Then theres the second tier like Cervantes (top 70s champ beat Loche/DeJesus), Loche (made loads of defenses and had 1 of the best defenses ever)

Mayweather did bugger all at 140. Hatton will be much higher than Mayweather in the all time 140 lbs rankings.

Hattoom beat KT and a shot Castillo.

Why do some people think that is so great?

History will get it right.

[tony3]

The biggest problem is that father time is creeping up on Junior Witter and if Hatton was to face and defeat Witter after the aforementioned time-frame, he would doubtless be hounded by accusations of preying on a boxer well past his prime (despite the fact that historically, pressure fighters like Hatton tend to burn out far more quickly than your average switch-hitting slickster).

I think Witter has a look of the Hopkins about him. Lives the life, no alcohol, no smoking, loves to train etc etc. I think he could be around for sometime. Certainly a lot longer than Hatton.

That's why I think he should get on with his own business. Hoover up the belts at 140 and give Hatton no option but to face him. The longer it takes to make the fight- the more likely Witter annihilates Hatton.

I'm actually inclined to agree with you BP and to add to your observations, I would also venture that Witter is still ferociously ambitious and hungry for recognition whereas one can't help getting the feeling that Hatton may have been tamed by fame & affluence.

BUT, returning to the original point, if in this hypothetical contest Hatton somehow managed to defeat Witter (a scenario that is highly unlikely IMO) but his victory was posted three years from now, the logic of your statement would probably be discarded by the cynics and supplanted by criticisms that Witter was over the hill.
That's why I estimate that Hatton's only got an 18 month window to take care of business.

[Carbo]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

Patently not. However, I was referring to modern day 140 lbers, and I certainly wouldn't count Ross or Armstrong as a modern day fighter. (And Armstrong may have fought at 140, but he was lightweight, welterweight and middleweight champion, was he not?) Nor would I class Dela Hoya or Robinson as a 140 lbers, in the same way I wouldn't class Felix Trinidad or Thomas Hearns as light middleweights.

And in my post, I think I made clear that I included Chavez and Pryor as head and shoulders above Hatton and Tszyu. If that wasn't clear, I explained myself poorly, because that's my belief.

PS. scurlaruntings, I think the words attributed to me in your post of 12.14 are actually those of ben k. Please change this if possible, as I agree with you that what's wrapped in a "Carbo wrote" quotation box is nonsense.

[JDC]

there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

However, I was referring to modern day 140 lbers

Foot in mouth

[JDC]

What if Hatton's next three fights were;

Luazcano
Mallignaggi
Witter

and he won all three? What would people think of him then??

This isn't meant to be a thread about how he's avoiding Witter etc, there's enough of them about.... but if as planned he fights Luazcano and Malignaggi this year, and then fights Witter early next year - winning all three, how would peoples opinions change?

Hatton is running out of time to cement any sort of legacy IMO.

People will look back and say Hatton ended his career with a good record, but the facts will be:

1. He never fought Cotto.
2. He never fought Witter.
3. He lost to Mayweather (who himself avoided Cotto)

I have much more respect for Pac Man, Barrera and Hopkins. These men are prepaired to fight the best to be known as the best. Hatton has gone someway towards doing this, but there must be some fear on his part in stepping up to the plate.

[Poncey]

What if Hatton's next three fights were;

Luazcano
Mallignaggi
Witter

and he won all three? What would people think of him then??

This isn't meant to be a thread about how he's avoiding Witter etc, there's enough of them about.... but if as planned he fights Luazcano and Malignaggi this year, and then fights Witter early next year - winning all three, how would peoples opinions change?

Hatton is running out of time to cement any sort of legacy IMO.

People will look back and say Hatton ended his career with a good record, but the facts will be:

1. He never fought Cotto.
2. He never fought Witter.
3. He lost to Mayweather (who himself avoided Cotto)

I have much more respect for Pac Man, Barrera and Hopkins. These men are prepaired to fight the best to be known as the best. Hatton has gone someway towards doing this, but there must be some fear on his part in stepping up to the plate.

After the manner of the Mayweather fight, I think his confidence might be iffy. I hope he doesn't do another Nas.

[JDC]

What if Hatton's next three fights were;

Luazcano
Mallignaggi
Witter

and he won all three? What would people think of him then??

This isn't meant to be a thread about how he's avoiding Witter etc, there's enough of them about.... but if as planned he fights Luazcano and Malignaggi this year, and then fights Witter early next year - winning all three, how would peoples opinions change?

Hatton is running out of time to cement any sort of legacy IMO.

People will look back and say Hatton ended his career with a good record, but the facts will be:

1. He never fought Cotto.
2. He never fought Witter.
3. He lost to Mayweather (who himself avoided Cotto)

I have much more respect for Pac Man, Barrera and Hopkins. These men are prepaired to fight the best to be known as the best. Hatton has gone someway towards doing this, but there must be some fear on his part in stepping up to the plate.

After the manner of the Mayweather fight, I think his confidence might be iffy. I hope he doesn't do another Nas.

Me too. But im not sure if the confidence has ever really been there. In the first and only really big challenge of his career he totally lost his composure. Mayweather knew that would happen too. Easy pickings really.

[Poncey]

Hatton is running out of time to cement any sort of legacy IMO.

People will look back and say Hatton ended his career with a good record, but the facts will be:

1. He never fought Cotto.
2. He never fought Witter.
3. He lost to Mayweather (who himself avoided Cotto)

I have much more respect for Pac Man, Barrera and Hopkins. These men are prepaired to fight the best to be known as the best. Hatton has gone someway towards doing this, but there must be some fear on his part in stepping up to the plate.

After the manner of the Mayweather fight, I think his confidence might be iffy. I hope he doesn't do another Nas.

Me too. But im not sure if the confidence has ever really been there. In the first and only really big challenge of his career he totally lost his composure. Mayweather knew that would happen too. Easy pickings really.

I'd say the Tszyu was his first big challenge, but I know what you mean. Roger said all along that Floyd would knock him out and most people thought he was an crazy.

[JDC]

After the manner of the Mayweather fight, I think his confidence might be iffy. I hope he doesn't do another Nas.

Me too. But im not sure if the confidence has ever really been there. In the first and only really big challenge of his career he totally lost his composure. Mayweather knew that would happen too. Easy pickings really.

I'd say the Tszyu was his first big challenge, but I know what you mean. Roger said all along that Floyd would knock him out and most people thought he was an crazy.

Yeah defo the Tszyu fight was a big challenge as a fight, and all credit goes to him for that win. Tszyu was I believe was 1/5 though for that fight, so the pressure was off. The challenge came with the weight of expectation that he could do it against Mayweather.

He created this profile for himself as the best of the best after the Tszyu fight. Thats when the bottling started IMO

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Listen, I think that if Hatton wins those three fights inside the abovementioned schedule, there'll be a very good argument to made for Hatton to be one of the top five 140 pounders ever..

So would you put him above: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson (at the limit 140 for his first 19 including wins over champs of the time) 2. Pryor 3. Benitez 4. Chavez 5. Henry Armstrong 6. Pernell Whitaker (prime at this weight) 7. Mayweather (prime at 140) 8. Delahoya (prime at 140/147) 9. Tyszu. 10 Berney Ross

He isnt fighting or beating Witter anyway but even if he did he wouldnt be top5 with those sort of fighters up there. You could even drop Sam Langford in at 140 as he started his career at 135. Duran fought at 140 a few times and would eat Hatton up. Then theres the second tier like Cervantes (top 70s champ beat Loche/DeJesus), Loche (made loads of defenses and had 1 of the best defenses ever)

Mayweather did bugger all at 140. Hatton will be much higher than Mayweather in the all time 140 lbs rankings.

Mayweather is clearly the best 140lb fighter in the last 15years. He was in his prime at 140 and beat the very best 140lbers - Hatton, Judah, Mitchell, Gatti, Corley - all top 10 fighters at 140 in 2005. Its not his fault Hatton turned the fight down at 140 and choose to have it at 147 in order to keep his 140lb status. And remember Hattons second best win at 140 is Mayweather/Corrales leftovers