G.O.A.T. Cruiserweight?

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 09 Mar 2008, 10:25

Based upon CW career only I'm not sure which is the best out of Holyfield and Haye? Holyfield became undisputed earlier, and arguably fought the better fighter overall in Qwawi. Both won 3 belts. However Mormeck (away from home) and Maccarinelli combined beats Qwawi IMO

David's definately above Qwawi and Spinks though.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 09 Mar 2008, 10:29

I think the KO loss to Thompson counts against Haye in that comparasion, also Holy's reign as world champ was longer.

Holyfield by quite a way I feel...

whicker · Post by **whicker** » 09 Mar 2008, 10:32

greatest of all time, yeah?

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 09 Mar 2008, 10:55

Holyfield by a mile.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Mar 2008, 11:13

Holyfield #1. He beat a great fighter Qawi over 15 rds. Ok, Qawi was a small light heavyweight but it was an astonishing fight. Holyfield's unifications were non events though, as Ocasio and De Leon did nothing but roll on the ropes offering no offence. Holy was apparently drained a bit in the De Leon fight so it was a good performance getting the stoppage.

Haye #2. KO'd Mormeck for the main belts. Took big puncher Big Mac's WBO title as well. Also KO'd a world class cruiser in Gurov. Probably the biggest puncher p4p ever at cruiser. Won away from home (JMM) and in a massive "event" fight (Mac). Adept at crushing BIG guys like bugs. Early career loss to gladiator Carl Thompson, but that made him a better fighter.

Juan Carlos Gomez #3. Made 10 successful WBC defences in Germany. Beat prime Dominguez in Argentina, beat him in a rematch. Comp level wasn't great, and he never unified but he would have beaten Jirov and Toney due to size, power, and southpaw skills. His only other good wins were KOs of former champs Imamu Mayfield and Al Cole.

Yes Holyfield is #1 but let's give Haye and Gomez some props.

Now obviously Holyfield went on to become a great heavyweight. Gomez became a farce at heavy. An advert for why cruisers should never move up! Haye as a stylist is more like Lennox Lewis. I do think he can win a title due to his handspeed and power.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 09 Mar 2008, 11:26

Holyfield by a country mile on achievement and ability.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 09 Mar 2008, 12:21

Mmmm - I know the Cruiserweight devision is new and you cannot fault Haye last night... but the guy has fought in 2 world title fights and is now being hailed as the second greatest of all time.

Not sure if that is correct.

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 09 Mar 2008, 12:28

Disagree with that Emerson mate.

Holyfield beat Qawi in his 13 th fight and Qawi was a dangerous, live champion... Haye fought Thompson around his 13th fight and get stopped. The Qawi who fought Holyfield would have knocked Hayes head off. Qawi was a proper fighter.

As for Carlos De Leon... he was a good fighter with 60 fights experience - that's more impressive than Haye beating Maccranelli - None of us really knew if Macranelli was genuine world class - the fighters Holyfield fought at cruiserweight were world class!

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 09 Mar 2008, 12:38

Holyfield up first,

i would not rate Haye above Qawi and Spinks that easily though... Would be intresting match ups anyway

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 09 Mar 2008, 12:39

It's difficult to compare Holyfied & Haye because the weight limit has changed.

I'm not so sure that Haye could have got down to 190lb & been as successful as Evander, whereas Evander would (& was) successful past 190lb & over 200lb as well.

As a CW, Evander is definitely number 1, but Haye would have been a nightmare for any CW in history.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Mar 2008, 13:06

observer1 wrote:Holyfield up first,

i would not rate Haye above Qawi and Spinks that easily though... Would be intresting match ups anyway

Leon Spinks wasn't really very good at cruiser. He was a failed heavyweight, then he got battered by Qawi.

Qawi was an outstanding light heavyweight but when he fought a tall fighter who fought tall he was out of his depth i.e. Holyfield rematch and the Michael Spinks unification fight down at light heavy. At cruiser Qawi beat a couple of decent fighters but that's all and was very small for the weight.

MICHAEL Spinks and Michael Moorer could have been dominant cruiserweight champs had tey ever fought at that weight.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Mar 2008, 17:27

1. Holyfield
2. Haye
3. Gomez
4. Nelson
5. Mormeck

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 09 Mar 2008, 17:57

DG. wrote:Holyfield by a mile.

hell yeah.

he was tough enuff to take haye's whacks and fast enuff to do some serious damage by himself.

haye is a dangerman to most opponents. but not a primetime evander "real deal" holyfield.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 09 Mar 2008, 19:35

I think Mormeck would probably rank above haye because he was involved in 9 world title fights winning 7 including against 3 world champions.

As a carrer at the weight he has done more than Haye who's kudos comes from winning a fight with him when he was toward the end of his carrer.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 09 Mar 2008, 20:24

Holyfield is the best cruiserweight ever by so far that there shouldn't be another slot filled until 54th best.

Let's be honest, though: weak division.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 09 Mar 2008, 20:27

Agree Mormeck should be ranked ahead of Haye in terms of GOAT.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 09 Mar 2008, 20:32

Jumping the gun a bit, 2 world title fight wins does not make the GOAT list I am afraid. Not near the top anyway.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Mar 2008, 07:05

stujones wrote:Agree Mormeck should be ranked ahead of Haye in terms of GOAT.

I disagree. Mormeck never successfully defended lineal world titles, nor did Bell, whereas Haye did. Mormeck had a nice run (Hill, Hill, Brown, Braithwaite), but he struggled with Gurov (whom Haye starched) and lost to Haye, so I put Haye above him.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Mar 2008, 07:06

nickd wrote:Jumping the gun a bit, 2 world title fight wins does not make the GOAT list I am afraid. Not near the top anyway.

The thing is, the 2 title fights were 2 of the more meaningful fights in the division's history. There was no mincing, just straight into the main fights.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 10 Mar 2008, 07:17

This is the same Emerson who labelled Esteban DeJesus "an ordinary fighter" (the man who defined Duran at lightweight).
Enough already.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 10 Mar 2008, 09:15

bennie wrote:This is the same Emerson who labelled Esteban DeJesus "an ordinary fighter" (the man who defined Duran at lightweight).
Enough already.

I stand by what I stated.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 2&start=25

BTW - Buchanan defined Duran at LW.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Mar 2008, 09:28

Haye is easily #2 ever cruiserweight. Like Holyfield he took the fights that mattered. He knocked out Enzo who had 5 world title wins, and he knocked out Mormeck who had 6 world title wins. Did it on both men's terms as well, going to France for JMM and having that "one last fight" at the weight where some were banking him to slip up, vs Enzo. Haye is the only man, other than Evander, to defend the lineal titles, and is a well deserved #2.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 10 Mar 2008, 11:41

Fook me, how quickly they forget. Dwight Muhammad Qawi was a hard nut all time legend. A scary beast of a fighter, with a WBO strap he'd of reigned for donkeys years.

Dont mention Enzo Macc in the same sentence as Qawi.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 10 Mar 2008, 11:47

Autobarn wrote:Haye is easily #2 ever cruiserweight. Like Holyfield he took the fights that mattered. He knocked out Enzo who had 5 world title wins, and he knocked out Mormeck who had 6 world title wins. Did it on both men's terms as well, going to France for JMM and having that "one last fight" at the weight where some were banking him to slip up, vs Enzo. Haye is the only man, other than Evander, to defend the lineal titles, and is a well deserved #2.

Both men's terms.... Why was the Maccarinelli fight on Enzo's terms. It was in London. Enzo was the fighter getting booed.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Mar 2008, 11:55

overhand_right wrote:Fook me, how quickly they forget. Dwight Muhammad Qawi was a hard nut all time legend. A scary beast of a fighter, with a WBO strap he'd of reigned for donkeys years.

Dont mention Enzo Macc in the same sentence as Qawi.

great light heavyweight, didn't do that much at cruiser before or after than great fight with Holyfield, because there wasn't really anyone good to fight. Also, if you didn't let him inside, he would struggle (Holyfield rematch). Wins over the South African (Crous?), LeeRoy Murphy and Leon Spinks were good, but not earth shattering.