Your ATG Non-USA HW list...

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:16

Hey gents

who do you think are the best, all time greats of the big man division that are not from the US of A.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:25

Putting them all head-to-head, Lennox Lewis stands as the best of the bunch. There were some great fighters who took the Heavyweight crown like Bob Fitzsimmons & Max Schmeling (Fitzsimmons, especially), but none that could stand against Lewis.

I would say...

Champion - Lennox Lewis
#1 Contender - Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Max Schmeling
3. Ingemaar Johansson
4. Tommy Burns
5. Primo Carnera

I assume you mean the linear title which excludes both of the Klitschko's from the discussion. Let me know if I am wrong.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:26

That's pretty much my idea, GI. I wonder about the order of Johannson-Baer-Carnera, but yours is probably right.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:27

Can include non-champions as well.

Lewis is definetly the best of the crop. Though what nationality would you define him as Jamaica-Canada-Uk. Lets just call him a Commonwealth fighter :)

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:27

For the love of all that is legitimate, don't place Carnera ahead of anyone, I Feel Fine!

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:29

Do you mean Schmeling, instead of Baer? Or someone else?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:30

Its funny you should mention him, I was reading a lil bio on him and when I was looking at his photo, with his big goober smile. I could not help to feel a tinge of compassion towards him...he was one of those tragic 'nice' guys.

But damned was he one big, muscled man.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:32

Robinson wrote:Can include non-champions as well.

Lewis is definetly the best of the crop. Though what nationality would you define him as Jamaica-Canada-Uk. Lets just call him a Commonwealth fighter :)

If you classify Lewis as Jamaican, then you have to consider Marciano Italian & not American, Baer German rather than American, & so on. Lewis is English, first & foremost.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:32

Yeah, yeah. I wonder about Burns and Johannson, but I agree, Carnera should be on the bottom. Momentary loss of the mind.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:34

Well, with Burns & Johansson, I posted them thinking Robinson was referring to champions exclusively. Obviously, now that the net has widened to include non-champs, those guys wouldn't make my list, at least not that high.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:35

Was he born there or did he hold citizenship there ?

He was one of those tri-citizens that only the former Empire can allow.

I thought he was sired by a Jamaican father, born in Canada to a English woman/.....No ?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:38

Lewis was born in England, raised largely in Canada, & has Jamaican heritage. He then returned to England as a pro, & lived his career there. Nowadays, I think he's on an island somewhere, drinking ice teas, living the dream 8)

I think Joe Frazier had Jamaican heritage (though not as direct as Lewis), too, didn't he?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Mar 2008, 05:56

Shouldn't Sam Langford be on this list?

Uzcudan was a notable fighter who would rate higher than Carnera for most.

In no order, some other names to consider

Coetzee
Bugner
Bruno
Berbick
Bonavena
Damiani
Tua
Farr

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:53

Lewis was born and raised in London, England by his Jamaican mother, who had come over to the UK in the 60s.

At the age of 12 he emigrated with his mother to Canada, where he later took up boxing. He was developed by Canadians and won an Olympic gold medal for Canada.

Originally he was to turn pro out of Canada (the same way Michael Bentt with his yankee drawl boxed out of NYC and made no claims to his British origin) but Frank Maloney advised him there were millions of saps out in the UK, with a long history of heavyweight failure that could be exploited were LL to move base and suddenly 'represent the UK'.

He duly did, was never overly convincing as a Brit, and throughout his career spent the majority of his life in Jamaica, Canada and NYC. However looking out of my window at Big Ben right now, cant say i blame him. This is a cold, windy grey toilet of a country anyway, but LL was only British as long as it meant the most money.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:52

Lewis
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Jackson
Schmeling
T. Sharkey

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Mar 2008, 09:12

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Sam Langford
3. Max Schmeling
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. Peter Jackson
6. Ingemar Johansson
7. Tommy Burns
8. Trevor Berbick
9. Gerrie Coatzee
10. Frank Bruno

John L -Good catch concerning Langford. It doesn't seem that people think of him as being Canadian.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 12 Mar 2008, 19:49

What about my old mate Frank Slavin

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Mar 2008, 22:23

He is your old mate? Wouldn't that make you over 100 years old?

Actaully Slavin was probably not top 10 but he was pretty good.

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 13 Mar 2008, 10:58

Just some guys to consider toward the lists bottom who I havent seen mentioned.

Nino Valdes
Wlad & Vit Klit
Don Cockell

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Mar 2008, 11:07

Most of Carnera's fights WERE legitimate . . it is urban legend that practically his entire career was fixed. He wasn't a bad boxer and compared to the over-massed slugs today he was one of the better Super HWs . . .I'd certaintly rank him over Valuev-McCline-Whitaker etc.
-I'm excluding pre 1900 fighters like Peter Jackson

Top 15:

1) Sam Langford

2) Lennox Lewis

3) Max Schmeling

4) Bob Fitz

5) Tommy Burns

6) Ingo Johansson

7) Tommy Farr

8) Oscar Bonavena

9) Larry Gains

10) Joe Bugner

11) Primo Carnera

12) Arturo Godoy

13) David Tua

14) Wladimir Klitschko

15) Paulino Uzcudun

I might be slighting a couple of the 80s HWs (Berbick, Coatzee) but I just don't see them on the same level as the older guys with the less flashy records but with substantial amounts of toughness and caginess (Godoy, Uzcudun)

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Mar 2008, 21:52

Good call on Godoy.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 14 Mar 2008, 02:13

I knew an old guy called Frank Slavin was a skin buyer. Obviously not the pugilist :P

It really sums up however just how much the Yanks have dominated the division for so long.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Mar 2008, 09:05

George Chuvalo is also certainly worth mentioning. Surprised no one has mentioned him.
Bob Cleroux was another good Canadian heavyweight. Actually there have been a fair amount of good Canadian heavyweights.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 Mar 2008, 09:20

Ambling Alp wrote:George Chuvalo is also certainly worth mentioning. Surprised no one has mentioned him.
Bob Cleroux was another good Canadian heavyweight. Actually there have been a fair amount of good Canadian heavyweights.

Good call, can't believe I forgot about them.

donnellon · Post by **donnellon** » 14 Mar 2008, 10:41

Ike
Peralta
Maher
Goddard
Coffey
Carpentier
Von Porat
Jack Root