How good is Enzo Calzaghe???

thepocketrocket · Post by **thepocketrocket** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:20

A few months ago when Joe was beating Kessler we had a national outpouring for tEnzo calzaghe, he was the greatest trainer, who could match him??

But really, how good is he??

But for years before that he has just hung around his son, beating over the hill fighters and hype jobs, then sticking his face in the camera like he is the star..

His gym increased in size when he got Enzo maccrinelli, Enzo followed the same path as Joe, bums and over the hill fighters..Enzo Calzaghe became a genius who made Macc who he is..he then gets Haye and BANG, and why? Because of stylistic faults!

One of the basics of Boxing is making sure that when you throw a jab you make sure that you dont lean back and you dont bring your hand back to your waist, why was Enzo not taught this, or why has is creeped into his style??? Did Calzaghe get get carried away with Enzo, go down the same path as Joe, the only differance being that Enzo isnt as good as Cazaghe jnr?

Look at the sparring his camp get, the fight each other, look at the sparring Haye got, top fighters from around the world, who had a better grounding??

Then is see the new fighters coming through and they, for the most part look stylistically poor..

Am I being too harsh??

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:24

I find it madness to question Enzo's abilities.

Tell me a trainer in the land who would love to be training

The Undisputed Super Middleweight Champion Of The World
The Former WBO Cruiserweight Champion Of The World
The WBA Light Welterweight Champion Of The World
The Commenwealth Light Middleweight Champion

Not bad for the CV is it??

thepocketrocket · Post by **thepocketrocket** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:29

I think your missing the point Spud, theres a shoolground bully mentality down Newbridge, they get fed fighters, they beat fighters and I dont see them learning anything..

Kotelnik beats Rees, Gavin then moves back down to British title level btw

bridportboxer · Post by **bridportboxer** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:30

Macca simply doesn't have Joe Calzaghe's natural ability. Calzaghe Snr has no doubt worked hard with Macca, but he is still making the same mistakes and it was so clear on Saturday night.
I don't think he'll change now, he is 27 and been doing the same thing for years. Macca has been fed a few journeymen types (I won't use the b#m word as I find it a bit disrespectful) to deal with and has done, but he hasn't learnt anything from them.
Doesn't matter what Enzo Calzaghe does Macca will always be the same animal, the only chance he has of getting better is to get in some serious close fights where he will get hit back.
The thing I can't understand is why he wasn't sparring with other cruiserweights / heavyweights. A few rounds with Herbie Hide would have no doubt been good learning for this fight, and if he is serious about being the best cruiserweight in the world then go looking for some good sparring.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:32

thepocketrocket wrote:I think your missing the point Spud, theres a shoolground bully mentality down Newbridge, they get fed fighters, they beat fighters and I dont see them learning anything..

Kotelnik beats Rees, Gavin then moves back down to British title level btw

Way too harsh.

thepocketrocket · Post by **thepocketrocket** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:35

bridportboxer wrote:Macca simply doesn't have Joe Calzaghe's natural ability. Calzaghe Snr has no doubt worked hard with Macca, but he is still making the same mistakes and it was so clear on Saturday night.
I don't think he'll change now, he is 27 and been doing the same thing for years. Macca has been fed a few journeymen types (I won't use the b#m word as I find it a bit disrespectful) to deal with and has done, but he hasn't learnt anything from them.
Doesn't matter what Enzo Calzaghe does Macca will always be the same animal, the only chance he has of getting better is to get in some serious close fights where he will get hit back.
The thing I can't understand is why he wasn't sparring with other cruiserweights / heavyweights. A few rounds with Herbie Hide would have no doubt been good learning for this fight, and if he is serious about being the best cruiserweight in the world then go looking for some good sparring.

Great post(and I do regret saying bum, figure of speech but a bad choice)

Just imagine, a few clumps from Herbie Hide or even Alex Gurov would have been a good indicator for Macc to get his hands up...if Joe hits him then I doubt it registers!!

They seem happy to stay in the own gym 'sticking to their own' with Enzo as some great sage, im not sure if it really is the best route for a young fighter,they need to learn!

bridportboxer · Post by **bridportboxer** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:40

thepocketrocket wrote:
bridportboxer wrote:Macca simply doesn't have Joe Calzaghe's natural ability. Calzaghe Snr has no doubt worked hard with Macca, but he is still making the same mistakes and it was so clear on Saturday night.
I don't think he'll change now, he is 27 and been doing the same thing for years. Macca has been fed a few journeymen types (I won't use the b#m word as I find it a bit disrespectful) to deal with and has done, but he hasn't learnt anything from them.
Doesn't matter what Enzo Calzaghe does Macca will always be the same animal, the only chance he has of getting better is to get in some serious close fights where he will get hit back.
The thing I can't understand is why he wasn't sparring with other cruiserweights / heavyweights. A few rounds with Herbie Hide would have no doubt been good learning for this fight, and if he is serious about being the best cruiserweight in the world then go looking for some good sparring.
Great post(and I do regret saying bum, figure of speech but a bad choice)

Just imagine, a few clumps from Herbie Hide or even Alex Gurov would have been a good indicator for Macc to get his hands up...if Joe hits him then I doubt it registers!!

They seem happy to stay in the own gym 'sticking to their own' with Enzo as some great sage, im not sure if it really is the best route for a young fighter,they need to learn!

It's piss easy to travel anywhere in the world nowadays and so there is no excuse for not getting good sparring.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:52

One fight doesn't make or break a trainer, Enzo has done wonders with Pryce and Rees, for me it seems Macca let the occasion get to him, he would have been trained to not do exactly what he did (boxing with his head high).

the only way you can truly rate a trainer is over a long period, and before Saturday Enzo was one of the best in Britain, and for me he still is.
He may look at the sparring or other methods and change his approach, but thats what makes a good trainer, learn all the time.

whicker · Post by **whicker** » 11 Mar 2008, 09:53

I feel that there were problems with their fightplan. Given what we all knew about punching power and chins in this fight they must have worked on a senario where Enzo needs to go down and take 8. Someone was going to get hit hard, and struggle. Surely that was antincipated.

Enzo Macca gets hit hard, so what does he do? Grabs the ropes and tries to hang on?

At that point his corner, who were right there, should have immediatly shouted at him to take 8 on a knee, just to get his sense back together. I mean, they must have planned for this, surely?

bridportboxer · Post by **bridportboxer** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:04

Old bones Ian wrote:One fight doesn't make or break a trainer, Enzo has done wonders with Pryce and Rees, for me it seems Macca let the occasion get to him, he would have been trained to not do exactly what he did (boxing with his head high).

the only way you can truly rate a trainer is over a long period, and before Saturday Enzo was one of the best in Britain, and for me he still is.
He may look at the sparring or other methods and change his approach, but thats what makes a good trainer, learn all the time.

Surely a good trainer doesn't need to learn that sparring is good, that is just basic common sense isn't it?

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:05

whicker wrote:I feel that there were problems with their fightplan. Given what we all knew about punching power and chins in this fight they must have worked on a senario where Enzo needs to go down and take 8. Someone was going to get hit hard, and struggle. Surely that was antincipated.

Enzo Macca gets hit hard, so what does he do? Grabs the ropes and tries to hang on?

At that point his corner, who were right there, should have immediatly shouted at him to take 8 on a knee, just to get his sense back together. I mean, they must have planned for this, surely?

I don't think Macca knew where he was once that first right hand had landed, just went into automatic and tried to regain his feet.
Bit like Frank Bruno when he got tagged.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:09

thepocketrocket wrote:I think your missing the point Spud, theres a shoolground bully mentality down Newbridge, they get fed fighters, they beat fighters and I dont see them learning anything..

Kotelnik beats Rees, Gavin then moves back down to British title level btw

Back to British title level? He has never boxed at British title level!

I think the work with Pryce, the obvious improvements in Maccarinelli along with Joe's career prove Calzaghe's credentials. Haye had a lot of physical gifts that Maccarinelli doesn't, i'm not sure tactics had all that much to do with it, the sooner Maccarinelli trys to push the fight at a faster pace and get closer, the sooner he is stopped imo

mike john · Post by **mike john** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:27

whicker wrote:I feel that there were problems with their fightplan. Given what we all knew about punching power and chins in this fight they must have worked on a senario where Enzo needs to go down and take 8. Someone was going to get hit hard, and struggle. Surely that was antincipated.

Enzo Macca gets hit hard, so what does he do? Grabs the ropes and tries to hang on?

At that point his corner, who were right there, should have immediatly shouted at him to take 8 on a knee, just to get his sense back together. I mean, they must have planned for this, surely?

who was it that said - " they all have a plan - until they get hit ".
sounds like the case here

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:05

Was it Mike Tyson came out with that quote?

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:09

I find this thread disappointing. In fact I think I said to DG on Sunday that I'd be pissed off if anyone questions Enzo's ability.

Firstly, any blame laid at Calzaghe's door for Maccaroni getting KTFO is wrong. In a S/O interview with Maccaroni, he told them that he didn't follow Calzaghe's game plan and he paid the price. In some ways he did a Hatton and thought with his dinker instead of his brain.

"27 year-old Maccarinelli, while devastated by the loss, seemed to be more upset that he had not followed the game plan set by his trainer Enzo Calzaghe and the feeling that he had let him down with his performance."

http://www.secondsout.com/UK/news.cfm?ccs=228&cs=24004

Calzaghe has turned Maccaroni into a credible CW, and former world champion, Pryce into a credible LMW and Rees into a World Champion (remember he performed better than Kotelnick did against M'Baye, although he maybe should've lost that night too).

Without Enzo in his corner, I'm convinced Joe wouldn't have beaten Lacy or Kessler. It's all fine and well having all the natural ability in the world, but if you don't have the right trainer, and a good one, you don't perform to your ability. A good example I used on Sunday was Arturo Gatti.

IMO Enzo is THE best trainer on the planet right now. Think his record 26W and 2L. Freddie Roach is close to Enzo, but not close enough IMO (I thought he disappointed with DLH and Manfredo Jr).

The only smear on Enzo as a trainer, I think, is that they never appear to bring in sparring partners from outside. That's fine for anyone up to Joe, but there's no-one on the same size level as Maccaroni for him to spar with.

Asterix · Post by **Asterix** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:15

thepocketrocket wrote: His gym increased in size when he got Enzo maccrinelli, Enzo followed the same path as Joe, bums and over the hill fighters..Enzo Calzaghe became a genius who made Macc who he is..he then gets Haye and BANG, and why? Because of stylistic faults!

No trainer in the World could have made Maccarinelli beat Haye last Sunday morning, imho. That became obvious to me with hindsight, although going into the fight I thought Maccarinelli had a good chance (granted, because I thought Haye would be very weight drained).

thepocketrocket · Post by **thepocketrocket** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:41

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:I find this thread disappointing. In fact I think I said to DG on Sunday that I'd be pissed off if anyone questions Enzo's ability.

Firstly, any blame laid at Calzaghe's door for Maccaroni getting KTFO is wrong. In a S/O interview with Maccaroni, he told them that he didn't follow Calzaghe's game plan and he paid the price. In some ways he did a Hatton and thought with his dinker instead of his brain.

"27 year-old Maccarinelli, while devastated by the loss, seemed to be more upset that he had not followed the game plan set by his trainer Enzo Calzaghe and the feeling that he had let him down with his performance."

http://www.secondsout.com/UK/news.cfm?ccs=228&cs=24004

Calzaghe has turned Maccaroni into a credible CW, and former world champion, Pryce into a credible LMW and Rees into a World Champion (remember he performed better than Kotelnick did against M'Baye, although he maybe should've lost that night too).

Without Enzo in his corner, I'm convinced Joe wouldn't have beaten Lacy or Kessler. It's all fine and well having all the natural ability in the world, but if you don't have the right trainer, and a good one, you don't perform to your ability. A good example I used on Sunday was Arturo Gatti.

IMO Enzo is THE best trainer on the planet right now. Think his record 26W and 2L. Freddie Roach is close to Enzo, but not close enough IMO (I thought he disappointed with DLH and Manfredo Jr).

The only smear on Enzo as a trainer, I think, is that they never appear to bring in sparring partners from outside. That's fine for anyone up to Joe, but there's no-one on the same size level as Maccaroni for him to spar with.

This is the problem..no-one is blaming Enzo for Maccs defeat, theres an argument that Freddie Roach couldnt have made Mcc victorius, but he could have helped!!

Quoting the 24-2 record is ludicrous and hardly negates what im arguing, Joe has had handpicked fighters all the way through, Enzo was going down that route also, they believed Haye was there for the taking due to the weight issues and they were wrong!!

Roach and co have more fighters at world level, good fighters, average fighters, the win ratio is not as high, but so what?? Peter Manfrdo loses, yep, thats probably because he isnt very good, with the greatest of respect I doubt superman could make Peter a Champion..

Stick with a small camp, hand-pick(for the most part) your opponents and you will have a great win ratio, you can hold yourself up as a sage of Boxing...

Sadly it just isnt true, good but not that good!!

Eraserhead · Post by **Eraserhead** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:57

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote: "27 year-old Maccarinelli, while devastated by the loss, seemed to be more upset that he had not followed the game plan set by his trainer Enzo Calzaghe and the feeling that he had let him down with his performance."

http://www.secondsout.com/UK/news.cfm?ccs=228&cs=24004

I'm still waiting to hear what this gameplan was, or what the mistake was that led to Haye scrambling Enzo's senses. Chin left up? Left hand low after jab? Pulls back in straight lines? Those aren't mistakes, those are bad habits Enzo has picked up from fighting bums.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 11 Mar 2008, 12:13

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:I find this thread disappointing. In fact I think I said to DG on Sunday that I'd be pissed off if anyone questions Enzo's ability.

Summed up very well - boxing needs characters Enzo is one - whats more he is a character who is also very good at getting his boxers to achieve results where some gave them no chance - Gavin Rees being one - gave him no chance and I suspect he will get decisioned against Kotelnik but nonetheless he got Rees there - another example is Pryce - I thought that lad was finished a good couple of years ago and look what he has done.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 11 Mar 2008, 12:28

thepocketrocket wrote:I think your missing the point Spud, theres a shoolground bully mentality down Newbridge, they get fed fighters, they beat fighters and I dont see them learning anything..

Kotelnik beats Rees, Gavin then moves back down to British title level btw

Kotelnik couldn't even beat M'baye.

Rees workrate and speed will win him this.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 11 Mar 2008, 12:32

Enzo C should get rid of his no weights policy for Macca though, Macca could use some more explosiveness.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 11 Mar 2008, 13:42

Got to say I actually agree with Pocket - I think Kotelnik beats Rees.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 11 Mar 2008, 14:25

Spud wrote:Got to say I actually agree with Pocket - I think Kotelnik beats Rees.

I do too Spud. I didn't catch all of the M'Baye fight, but the journos said it could have gone Kotelnik's way.

fist · Post by **fist** » 11 Mar 2008, 15:00

Stupid thread really. Enzo has done amazing with his fighters. Considering that the man was not formely a boxer himself, his done wonders to learn and improve himself as a trainer. The recent awards he has recieved have been well earned. And they do bring in bloody sparring partners. Macca's loss did clearly emanate from mistakes (not to mention Haye's power), but those mistakes where Maccas alone. He didnt go in for the kill when he had the chance and he got stuck in that corner instead of just staying down and taking a breather. They were heat of the moment mistakes and not idicative of flaws in enzos training abilities. His resume says it all mate. Lets see if you or other trainers can do any better.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 11 Mar 2008, 15:20

fist wrote:He didnt go in for the kill when he had the chance and he got stuck in that corner instead of just staying down and taking a breather.

B*llocks - at no stage in that fight was Haye remotely hurt enough for Maccarinelli to go in for the kill as you state.

Maccarinelli is a bloody good chap - delighted I met him to lay some insults etc etc to rest - but even with that said he got beaten fair and square and in my opinion would get beaten 9.99 times out 10 each and ever time he and Haye were to meet.

Haye showed his world class skills - where as Maccarinelli showed his glaring frailities at the very top level - there is no shame in that.

Maccarinelli proved he deserves his place in the top echelons of the Cruiserweight division for me the win against Braithwaite proved that - but to come out with veiled excuses and but this and but that - Maccarinelli has no excuses he got beaten fair enough.

How good is Enzo Calzaghe???

How good is Enzo Calzaghe???

Re: How good is Enzo Calzaghe???