Salvador Sanchez: How far could he have gone?

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 20:57

Broncano wrote:
silkov wrote:Gomez was as true a warrior as you'll find in boxing, but at his peak he was like Sanchez the complete boxer with great speed and skill as well as power. His fight with Lockridge has always been controversial but I have it on tape and no way was it a robbery... it was a close fight and Gomez finsihed very strongly despite suffering a severe throat injury which damaged his vocal cords permanently.
Saying Zarate fought no one is basically silly... he dominated a very talented division ...look at his record Keed!... he also beat the very dangerous and unbeaten huge punching sensation Alfonszo Zamora in a mini-superfight!.... what constitutes good opposition in your mind Keed?... perhaps you should stick with the Heavyweights?...
Now that silkov's said it I also like to ask, keed: WHo isn't overrated by your standards?? I dont mean this as a way to antagonise or anything, but I've seen you use the word with such regularity that I'm somewhat curious to know.

All I said was Zarate dominated a weak division, as did Gomez. How many Hall of Famers were around in Zarate's division when he was fighting? And when he did fight Hall of Famers, what was his record against them?

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:01

The Keed wrote:All I said was Zarate dominated a weak division, as did Gomez. How many Hall of Famers were around in Zarate's division when he was fighting?

You did say Gomez was overrated.

So does that mean that nobody can say someone was a great fighter if there werent any HOF fighters around?

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:06

Broncano wrote:
The Keed wrote:All I said was Zarate dominated a weak division, as did Gomez. How many Hall of Famers were around in Zarate's division when he was fighting?
You did say Gomez was overrated.

So does that mean that nobody can say someone was a great fighter if there werent any HOF fighters around?

"You did say Gomez was overrated."

I didn't say I didn't. I just said the only thing I said about Zarate was that he dominated a weak division, which is true.

So does that mean that nobody can say someone was a great fighter if there werent any HOF fighters around?

No, but you shouldn't say it's wrong to say he ISN'T great, either.

And as I said, what was his record against Hall of Famers? The first HOFer he ever fought was Gomez, who beat him decisively.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:12

Fine, I won't say its wrong to say that any fighter isnt great as long as some evidence and serious reasoning is provided. But so far the only measuring stick you have provided is his record against HOFamers. theres much more to boxing analysis than just comparing records and looking up the Boxing Register for the little star next them that dennotes HOF inductee.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:15

and do you still think Gomez is overrated? May I ask how? His record is 1-1 against Hall Of Famers so by your standards he couldnt be that bad...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:16

I say again Keed give me a list of talented contenders!. If Zarate dominated a weak division what do you call the standered of todays contenders?. The Bantams of the 70s were far more talented than todays bunch... or don't you agree!.
Give me a list of talented Bantamweight contenders... it's a simple request!.
I said that perhaps you should stick to heavyweights because you don't seem to appreciate the lighter weight fighters!.

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:28

silkov wrote:The contenders of the 70s were extremely talented and in most cases would totally overwhelme the present day Bantams. Fighters Like Tapia, Danny Romeo and Ayala are, despite being good fighters, in a lower league to Gomez, Zarate, Pintor and Sanchez... and I think that most knowledgable and experienced followers of boxing would agree with me!.

OK, I see this post now.

First of all, you are confusing things a bit by comparing guys from different weight classes.

While I agree that Sanchez was superior to everyone else you mentioned, I don't see why Tapia is in such a "lower league" than the other 3 guys from Sanchez's era.

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:31

silkov wrote: The Bantams of the 70s were far more talented than todays bunch... or don't you agree!.

I didn't say today's division was great either... I only said you shouldn't make Zarate a "lock" to beat Tapia, Barrera, or Morales (Ayala I would probably agree with, though).

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:36

Broncano wrote:and do you still think Gomez is overrated? May I ask how? His record is 1-1 against Hall Of Famers so by your standards he couldnt be that bad...

Yes, I ALWAYS thought he was overrated. As soon as he beat Zarate (in a fight in which he was the underdog, if I remember correctly), he all of a sudden had all this honor bestowed on him... but that's only ONE big win, there... how do you know he just didn't have Zarate's number? That's the way things go in boxing, sometimes (as we've certainly seen a lot lately). That's something people just seem to be quick to forget. And sure enough, the next two times he fought truly great fighters (Sanchez and Nelson) he was beaten, and pretty much outclassed in fact.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:38

You suddenly forget the Pintor fight... Wasnt that impressive enough to you?

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:43

Broncano wrote:You suddenly forget the Pintor fight... Wasnt that impressive enough to you?

I didn't forget the Pintor fight. As I said already, Pintor was good, but NOT on the level of Sanchez or Nelson. And there, Gomez had a life-and-death struggle all the way. Watching that fight, I wouldn't have made Gomez a sure favorite (if even a favorite at all) to beat guys like Barrera or Morales (among others), contrary to what most of his fans in this thread would seem to do.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:43

..and as far as the weak division commentary?

from 1975-1980 all of these fighters were reated top 10 by the Ring at one time or another:

Alfonso Zamora
Rodolfo Martinez
Eusebio Pedroza
Wilfredo Gomez
Alberto Davila
Lupe Pintor
Jorge Lujan
Alberto Sandoval
Enrique Sanchez
Jeff Chandler
Leo Randolph

That's weak?

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:46

Broncano wrote:..and as far as the weak division commentary?

from 1975-1980 all of these fighters were reated top 10 by the Ring at one time or another:

Alfonso Zamora
Rodolfo Martinez
Eusebio Pedroza
Wilfredo Gomez
Alberto Davila
Lupe Pintor
Jorge Lujan
Alberto Sandoval
Enrique Sanchez
Jeff Chandler
Leo Randolph

That's weak?

Gomez or Zarate each didn't fight most of those guys.

And incidentally, Pedroza was only a novice when he was down at bantam, and NOT considered great yet.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:50

That list is bantamweights so it only concerns Zarate, and he fought 4 out of that list.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:51

Yeah Pedroza was considered such a novice at bantamweight that he fought for the world title against Zamora.

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 21:54

Broncano wrote:Yeah Pedroza was considered such a novice at bantamweight that he fought for the world title against Zamora.

Actually, that's the truth. And that's why I'm saying some of these guys you're insisting are great aren't neccessarily as great as you make them out to be.

As you yourself said, sometimes you have to look past the little star next to their names.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 22:04

In the case of Gomez, Pedroza, Zarate and Sanchez they deserve that little star. But the only way to find out is to actually watch their fights.
And You dont need to diminish their accomplishments in order to sell Azumah Nelson (who in my opinion was also a great fighter)

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 05 Feb 2004, 22:08

Broncano wrote:In the case of Gomez, Pedroza, Zarate and Sanchez they deserve that little star. But the only way to find out is to actually watch their fights.
And You dont need to diminish their accomplishments in order to sell Azumah Nelson (who in my opinion was also a great fighter)

1) When on earth did I say they didn't belong in the Hall of Fame?

2) Why do you say I'm doing this "just to sell Nelson"??

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 05 Feb 2004, 22:23

1) I didnt say you did

2) Go to the previous page ---everyone deserves your criticism but Nelson

crooked nose · Post by **crooked nose** » 06 Feb 2004, 00:12

I'm glad the name of Jeff Chandler has finally surfaced in this discussion of '80s bantams/JFs. He was THE fighter at 118. And Pintor, though truly a tough and talented champion, avoided him. The story goes that in mid 1980, Chandler fought and KOd a Pintor sparring partner (Gustavo Martinez maybe?) who then reported back to the Pintor camp that Jeff was too much.
That fight never came off. I also wonder about Chandler-Davila, Chandler-Zarate, Chandler-Gomez. I'd pick Jeff except vs. Gomez.

And back to Sanchez: how would he have fared against Camacho, Chavez, Nelson II, etc?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Feb 2004, 06:52

Don't make me laugh keed, Tapia would be lucky to be in the top 10 at either Bantam, Light feather or Feather in the 70s.... your lack of knowledge regarding Zarate and the Bantams of his time is very dissapointing. Again I ask you to come up with a list of 'quality' Bantamweight, Lightfeather or Featherweight contenders... as I suspected you seem to have only watched the likes of Tapia, Morales Ayala etc....

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 06 Feb 2004, 07:03

Gomez was a fantastic fighter. The guy had it all: great chin, great heart, power in either hand, fast hands and every punch in the book. Just didn't always train as hard as he could have ( didn't need to half the time ).

His win over Zarate marked him down as one of the greats, never mind his fantastic win over Pintor.
Zarate's record going into the Gomez fight was an astounding 52-0 ( 52 knockouts! ). And consider, this guy had put together that record in Mexico - where, as we know, there's few easy matches in the lower weights. Carlos was a serious talent. Knocking out he unbeaten Zamora was a truly great win - ever seen Zamora's knock out of Pedroza? Pedroza was out before he hit the canvas in round 2.

Sanchez, Gomez & Zarate are three ring legends and fully deserve the the label All Time Greats.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Feb 2004, 08:00

Yes Mighty Warrior, and all those koes of Zarate came against the best Bantams around, and the Bamtams of the 70s were a very talented bunch... much more so than the little men of today.
Morales and Barrera are good fighters but if they had been around in the 70s I don't see them having the success that they have had in this era.
The depth in quality is just not there... unfortunately some people may look at all the koes on Zarates and Gomezs records and make the mistake of thinking that the opposition was weak... not that Zarate and Gomez were two tremendous punchers and all round fighters.
Zamoras win over Pedrosa shows what a dangerous fighter Zamora was... and Zarate took him apart in a classic... much like Gomez then did to him.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 06 Feb 2004, 08:20

True, and while I'd pick Sanchez over Barrera and Morales, I still think those two at their peaks would've held their own in any era.
Gomez was ruthless against Zarate - hitting him after the bell and also while he was down - ref Harry Gibbs lost control in that one..

It's no wonder the Mexicans savoured that revenge win by Sanchez.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:53

MightyWarrior wrote:Zarate's record going into the Gomez fight was an astounding 52-0 ( 52 knockouts! ).

Sorry to nit-pick, but he had "only" 51 KOs going into the Gomez bout. ;)

Also, the 52 wins is less astonishing than it seems - a whopping 18 of those were against guys making their pro debut, and another 13 were against guys who didn;t have a single win - other champions refer to those as "light sparring sessions" and don't put them on their records.

None of which is to say Zarate wasn;t a great fighter, but let's be honest, that 52-0 was massively padded with stiffs and bums off the street.