Jerry Quarry

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Mar 2008, 00:27

Edit: This thread was originally asking about Quarry's fights with Ellis and Chuvalo, but it turns out Quarry's fight with Chuvalo is now on youtube so I just watched it, strange ending but good fight...

Anyway, my question is; what happened in Quarry's fight with Ellis? It seems like a winnable fight for Quarry, that could have enhanced him a great deal, particularly because he would have won the vacant belt. Did he have trouble with Ellis' style?

Also, was there ever any talk of a rematch between Quarry and Chuvalo? Or with Ellis?

Thanks in advance. Any thoughts on Quarry as "the best Heavyweight never to win a belt"? He beat Lyle and Shavers, and those are two guys who often get that moniker.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 11 Mar 2008, 03:18

I have just got both those fights and I am looking forward to sitting down and watching them.

Quarry is such an interesting guy to watch. He comes across as a real character.

Its sad to watch him, learn about him and then to know of his fate.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:23

I don't think it's that surprising that Eliis beat Quarry. Those two guys were about as even as you could get, and it was a competitive fight.

Ellis had a funny career, he wasn't that successful as a middleweight, (partially due to the fact that he was sometimes overmatched as a young fighter) but did much better as a heavyweight, which seemed more of his natural weight. Getting Dundee as a trainer certainly helped as well.

There was talk of rematch, but it never materialized. Ellis fought Patterson next, and for some reason Quarry fought several journeyman in a row. It's too bad; they were evenly matched and had contrasting styles. A rematch probably would have been a good fight.

As far as Quarry being the best heavyweight not to win a belt, thats hard to say. Technically great fighters way back like Langford,Jeannette, and McVey never got a shot at the heavyweight title, though they were the "colored champion".

Quarry probably was the best heavyweight not to win a major title in the last 80 years.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Mar 2008, 15:20

No, I just mean that it was a winnable fight for Quarry, I'm just asking what happened in the fight. And I'm not saying that I hold him as the best fighter never to win a belt, I'm asking if anyone else does. Plus I'm thinking more along the lines of modern fighters. I think I remember Foreman saying that he thought that Quarry was the best never to win a belt.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Mar 2008, 16:00

From what I've read Quarry went into the Ellis fight with a back injury and this hampered him considerably. Dotn really know the full truth but Quarry is very subdued against Ellis, in sharp contrast to how he came out and went toe to toe with Joe Frazier a little later on...

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Mar 2008, 19:28

Quarry probably was the best heavyweight not to win a major title in the last 80 years.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

Can't believe me and Ambling Alp finally agree on something

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Mar 2008, 22:27

Maybe if so many topics weren't on Marciano and the guy that beat Patterson,Liston,Frazier, and Foreman we would find out that we agree on a lot. Who knows.

joe kurtz · Post by **joe kurtz** » 13 Mar 2008, 19:33

I've often thought that it was, indeed, strange that they never put together a Chuvalo - Quarry rematch. Especially seeing as how controversial the ending was to their encounter.

Though, II have to say, I don't think there was all that much for Quarry & his people to complain about. He got hit with a damned good left hook high on the side of the head & it was one of those strange shots that turned legs into jelly & planted Jerry on the canvas hard.

He jumped up right away, but hiis legs were still gone.
Though he seemed pretty clear headed while Zack Clayton counted, he must have been dazed just enough to lose track of the count. Which, reached ten. End of story.

There's no "do overs" or second chances in boxing. When the ref reaches the count of ten, no matter what the circumstances , your night is over. Still, it's odd that the Garden & it's promoters never put together a return match.

Does anyone out there know iif there were attempts to do so that failed to come into fruition or ... ?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 14 Mar 2008, 00:06

Having seen it only once, and on youtube, its kind of hard to tell what the hell happened. But, yeah, in the end there's really no excuses in boxing when it comes to something like that, and Quarry should have took the eight count standing up. Still, even though he was ahead, Chuvalo was landing that left hook with some consistency, maybe he might have stopped Quarry even if Quarry had survived that first knock down.

But, anyway, has anyone seen the Ellis fight? I'm not looking for a round by round description necessarily, just a quick recap of what exactly happened and why it seemed Quarry lost. I thought silkov's comment about Quarry's back was interesting; do we know for a fact it was injured, and if so how badly? Did it seem to be visibly bothering him in the fight?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 14 Mar 2008, 02:11

Quarry ate alot of right hands against Ellis. Ellis smashed them through his guard consistently, as leads and after being set up.

Ellis built up an early lead, Quarry managed to come back, but I think Ellis 'power' punching was the telling factor. I shall have to rewatch it, but I remember thinking afterwards that Quarry took alot of hits.

Ellis was able to land the cross while quarry was in the process of throwing his left hook, as well as being jammed with it as a lead by ELLis.

It is a good fight and is worthy of a rematch. I would like to score it myself some day, but I feel Ellis won it.

Kym

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 Mar 2008, 09:26

Quarry was a great fighter with a GREAT chin (yes he went down a few times but look at the punches he took vs Frazier, Lyle, Norton etc. without going down, he was one tough SOB) but I wouldn't neccesarily put him as the best HW to never win a title. He had many opportunities to reach the top of the mountain and simply failed everytime. I was actually shocked that he didn't give Ali more trouble in their rematch, I think it's one of Ali's best fights post-comeback.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Mar 2008, 12:24

I do think that often people go overboard in making excuses for some of Quarry's losses ie.- his losses to Ellis,Chuvalo, and Norton.

However, he did have several notable wins- Patterson,Spencer,Mathis,Mac Foster,Lyle,Shavers.

Not including black heavyweights from way back who never got a title shot (Langford,McVey,Jeannette, Wills etc.) you could make a legitimate arguement that he was the best heavyweight to never win a major title belt. There are a handful of other guys that you could make a case for, but Quarry would have a pretty good case.

He never made it to the top of the mountain, but the mountain was pretty high when he fought. Had in fought in some other eras, it probably would have been a different story.
For example without question he would have won a title belt in this decade.
He almost surely would have won a title belt in the 1980's.
He would have had a good chance in the early-mid 1930's as well.
It's pretty easy to imagine him beating either Marvin Hart or Tommy Burns as well.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 Mar 2008, 12:38

Ambling Alp wrote:I do think that often people go overboard in making excuses for some of Quarry's losses ie.- his losses to Ellis,Chuvalo, and Norton.

However, he did have several notable wins- Patterson,Spencer,Mathis,Mac Foster,Lyle,Shavers.

Not including black heavyweights from way back who never got a title shot (Langford,McVey,Jeannette, Wills etc.) you could make a legitimate arguement that he was the best heavyweight to never win a major title belt. There are a handful of other guys that you could make a case for, but Quarry would have a pretty good case.

He never made it to the top of the mountain, but the mountain was pretty high when he fought. Had in fought in some other eras, it probably would have been a different story.
For example without question he would have won a title belt in this decade.
He almost surely would have won a title belt in the 1980's.
He would have had a good chance in the early-mid 1930's as well.
It's pretty easy to imagine him beating either Marvin Hart or Tommy Burns as well.

I think one needs to make a distinction as the "best man to not win THE championship"

In this day and age frikkin' Mike Quarry could probably get a HW paper belt . .

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Mar 2008, 16:08

After reading that, I didn't know if should use the

symbol or the :( symbol. The heavyweight division is indeed pretty sad these days.

Anyway to be more specific about Quarry would do in a different era, here are the "real champions" I think he probably would have beat:

Hart
Burns
Willard
Carnera
Braddock
Leon Spinks
Douglas

A tossup against:
Michael Spinks
Moorer
Johansson

I think he would have a serious chance but wouldn't bet on him against:

Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Schmeling
Sharkey
Baer

He would be a longshot against:
Jeffries
Charles
Walcott

Less than 1 in 10 chance against:
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Liston
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis

I don't think he would have beat a younger Patterson but would have given him a tough fight.

In general, I think Quarry would won the championship in a weak era, and come up a little short in an average era.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 14 Mar 2008, 16:16

Ambling Alp wrote: Less than 1 in 10 chance against:
…
Foreman

Quarry at his best had a very good chin, was well conditioned, and an excellent counter puncher. I’m always miffed when people say that he would have had very little chance against Foreman despite the fact that Quarry schooled Lyle, who was a very similar fighter to Foreman, as evidenced by their fight.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 Mar 2008, 16:52

Ambling Alp wrote:After reading that, I didn't know if should use the symbol or the :( symbol. The heavyweight division is indeed pretty sad these days.

Anyway to be more specific about Quarry would do in a different era, here are the "real champions" I think he probably would have beat:

Hart
Burns
Willard
Carnera
Braddock
Leon Spinks
Douglas

A tossup against:
Michael Spinks
Moorer
Johansson

I think he would have a serious chance but wouldn't bet on him against:

Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Schmeling
Sharkey
Baer

He would be a longshot against:
Jeffries
Charles
Walcott

Less than 1 in 10 chance against:
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Liston
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis

I don't think he would have beat a younger Patterson but would have given him a tough fight.

In general, I think Quarry would won the championship in a weak era, and come up a little short in an average era.

Wow, even with Moorer . . no bet vs Fitzimmons . . no chance vs Holyfield and Lennox?? That's pretty harsh!

I think Moorer and Evander both give Quarry tough fights but Jerry prevails in both (Holyfield-Quarry would be a war for the ages) I think Jerry vs Lennox is 50/50 IMO. Quarry with his short arms would have a hard time reaching Lennox, but he would never quit, get some good counter shots in, and had far superior stamina to Lewis. Quarry was vulnerable to good left jabbers but I was never very impressed with Lennox's jab and I don't think Quarry, who faced better left jabbers in his career, would have a tough time slipping it. I can definitely see Lennox fading late and Quarry flurrying to a tough points win. A prime Quarry was a much tougher proposition than a 37 year old Evander (who by that time had developed a similar bouncy, counter-punching style to Quarry), who I feel edged Lewis in the rematch.

I agree in the rest of your 1 and 10 chance list, Quarry loses to the likes of Dempsey, Johnson, Louis, Tyson (bad style matchup), Holmes etc.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 14 Mar 2008, 18:57

Thanks for the description of the fight robinson... interesting.

Dempsey... yeah, I agree that Quarry had a great chin, which made the Chuvalo fight so surprising, Chuvalo really hurt Quarry badly and Chuvalo isn't known as a huge puncher, though he did also stun Frazier once or twice. Chuvalo's another one of these fighters who is somewhat underrated. And I agree that Ali's rematch with Quarry was one of his better performances on the comeback, he wasn't in great shape and was overweight in a lot of his post-Frazier I fights, which probably caught up to him with Norton, but he looked like he was in excellent shape in the Quarry rematch. I think you can tell that Ali really respected Quarry. I wonder about Lewis' jab against Quarry, but I agree it could be a potentially tough fight, and I think he would give Holyfield a lot problems.

Alp... yeah, I think a lot of people would agree with that for the most part. Plus, even outside of linear belt holders, there's also all those paper champions in the 80s and 90s and in this decade especially who Quarry could have destroyed. If Quarry were around today he could potentially unify the belts, ergo becoming the linear champion. Wlad hasn't beaten anyone any where near as good as Jerry.

Does anyone think that a younger Quarry would have beaten Norton? Their fight was pretty good, but Jerry was well past it and had been torn apart by Frazier I think a year earlier in the rematch.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 14 Mar 2008, 19:34

I feel that against Patterson, Quarry lost one and drew another but im no doubt biased.

As it is said above is thta Quarry had a lot of chnaces at the title and some greats and many stages in his career and stayed at the top for a good while.

At his best, maybe late 1960s he was a very hittable man, who had a good chin considering, nice power and was good at countering, but who could also be trapped and countered himself.

He also when he was at his peak, slowed alot after the 5th maybe 6th round. It seemed that he got better as a late round fighter as he aged. But I would like to watch more of him before I make a confirmed opinion on him....thats what I have noticed so far in his fights.

As to whether he is one of the best never to win a title...maybe but thats a tall call. He certainly is one of the most favourite.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 14 Mar 2008, 22:48

*Shakes head in confusion*

Never understood people perceiving something special in Quarry's chin...

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 15 Mar 2008, 01:16

Goodnight, Irene wrote:*Shakes head in confusion*

Never understood people perceiving something special in Quarry's chin...

It's pretty clear from looking at both Frazier fights, Norton, Lyle, Foster etc.

Quarry was a quicker starter in his prime but I wouldn't say he had any stamina issues. His last second KO of Spencer showed his late fight ability.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 15 Mar 2008, 01:22

Just cannot shake the image of him rocking & rolling all over the place in the rematch with relatively light-hitting Ali.

Shaken up something awful for someone with such a dependable chin.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 15 Mar 2008, 02:42

Ali broke him down, that doesn't mean Quarry had a bad chin. We can all point and laugh at Ali's power, but that evil Muslim could hurt you if you gave him the oppportunity. Ali hurt Liston, Bonavena, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner; they had great chins. No one is suggesting that Quarry could not be hurt, just that he was difficult to hurt.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 15 Mar 2008, 05:40

I think he gets 'rocked' often because he is some what hittable. He took alot of shots, solid, straight up shots that easily would have dropped or stopped a lesser man.

Being wobbled does not mean he had no chin, he could be off balance, shaken, or well rocked....

I think he had one of the better chins. Maybe not the best...but he was hit alot and often by solid singular shots.

Shots that would have KO'd others or not have landed against better guys.

I really like Quarry, It really makes me sad to think about his fate to be honest.

Seems like a good man too.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Mar 2008, 12:00

Quarry is one of those guys who is either vastly over-rated by some, or drasticly under-rated by many. He was brushed off in his time as something of a 'white hope' by his fellow boxers [mainly Ali], but despite his losses to Frazier, Ali and Norton, there is no doubt in my mind that he was a top 5 heavyweight in the 1970's. He wasn't the power hitter like Frazier or Foreman, nor did he have the skill of Norton, let alone Ali, but he was a very big piece of the 1970's heavyweight picture...he fell short against the best heavyweights in the richest era in heavyweight history...to me that isn't so much a bad thing, though many hold it against Quarry because he failed to beat them [Ali, Norton, Frazier].

I think had he existed today, the Klitschko's and the Ibragimov's and the Valuev's and the Briggs' and the whole lot, wouldn't be able to keep Quarry away and wouldn't be able to knock him off the top of the mountain.

Quarry proved he wasn't a white hope.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 15 Mar 2008, 22:40

I Feel Fine wrote:Ali broke him down, that doesn't mean Quarry had a bad chin. We can all point and laugh at Ali's power, but that evil Muslim could hurt you if you gave him the oppportunity. Ali hurt Liston, Bonavena, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner; they had great chins. No one is suggesting that Quarry could not be hurt, just that he was difficult to hurt.

Hold on, mate, no one's laughing. I didn't say Ali couldn't punch --- I said he was relatively light-hitting, & he had Quarry shaken down to his bootlaces toward the end. I never said Quarry had a bad chin, either, simply his chin was not what it is often made to be, & the Ali rematch is testimony to this. The offending punch (for the most part) was Ali's jab. Some powershot, that is. The end came in seven rounds (I think? I have the fight, but can't be bothered going back to check right now), so it wasn't as if it came late, & was coupled with exhaustion, either.

Quarry's chin is oversold.