Was Lennox really that great?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:31

Did you see that shambolic 'Ringside' discussion last night about Lennox Lewis' pending retirement. Talk about thrown together. Johnny Nelson said Lewis should be in the top three heavies of all time, they all agreed Lewis had taken on the very best of the modern era (nobody mentioned Riddick Bowe), Garside kept referring to Lennox's win over a shot Mike Tyson, McCrory talked about missing his trips to Vegas, and Williams insisted Lewis would be fighting on. In-depth stuff.
Now let's have a proper debate. Was Lennox Lewis really that great, or just the best of a bad bunch? Would he have beaten Bowe in the early 90's? Would he have beaten the Tyson who beat Bruno for the second time? Why didn't he really make a statement in the second fight with Holyfield?
Colin Hart interviewed from the press conference where Audley Harrison showed up, said Lewis should be ranked in the top 10 heavies of all time, but not in the top half of the 10.
So what will Lewis be remembered for? For me, it was the win over "Razor" Ruddock in 1992, when he showed he was true world class. But that's two rounds and two rounds only. My overall feeling is one of disappointment with Lewis. He had the ability to win like he did against Ruddock in so many other fights in my opinion, but he lacked the fire.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:35

Lennox was great

the only thing is he needed bowe on his record, not his fault lewis ducked him

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:38

I personally would rate Lewis in the top ten probably around the middle mark def not in my top three though.

I agree in that he never fought Bowe,Beat a completely shot Tyson and struggled with Holyfield and Klitschko......I still think he deserves respect for what he has achieved and deserves his place in the top ten even though he isnt in my opinion a great fighter but a very good one.

HH

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:47

He beat Riddick Bowe in 1988 and that is the very reason he hasn't got Bowe on his professional record, 'Big Daddy' didn't fancy the rematch. He knew what would happen.

Best
Louis
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Marciano

Favourite
Dempsey
Marciano
Louis
Holmes
Lewis

DIRT SUGAR · Post by **DIRT SUGAR** » 06 Feb 2004, 11:51

Kind of agree with you Bennie. There were times when Lewis looked less than scintillating and you had the bizarre losses against McCall and Rahman. But after paying for showing his opponents a lack of respect, he avenged both those defeats comfortably.

For such a big man he was versatile, whether it be blasting out the likes of Ruddock, or totally outboxing Tua. He could do a bit of everything and when he was truly focused (ie v Ruddock, Golota, Tyson) he was as dominant a force the division has seen since a peak Tyson was bowling them all over.

I would still have liked to see him taking on Bowe and Holyfield early in the 90s but it just didn't happen and that (apart from the McCall loss, which set him back quite a bit) was more a case of boxing politics preventing the fights than a reluctance on LL's part to fight them.

When you look at the guys out there today who are supposed to carry the torch, you have to say that from having guys like Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield and Bowe, things in boxing's flagship division look pretty bleak now that Lewis has hung up his gloves.

I mean, what does it say when the Vitali Klitchsko, the man who so many people say is the best big man out there, couldn't put away somewhat past it, overweight, rusty Lennox Lewis who was well into his late 30s?

Let's hope the next Lewis isn't too far around the corner. It's always been a constant theme that if the heavyweights thrive, then boxing thrives. While I'm not totally sure of this, there's nothing like the thrill of watching a world heavyweight title fight.

adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 06 Feb 2004, 12:29

I think he definately deserves a top 5 placing. I know people say it over an over again, but it's because it's a valid point.... Lennox has beaten everyone he's shared a ring with. nYou cant ignore that fact. When he's been fully focused, in top shape, he has been effectivly unbeaten.

Technically he's one of the best also, and along with his size, it make him a formiddable opponent. Although i'm pretty sure, that overall Ali is the greater, i'm not so sure that he would beat Lennox if they met at their peaks.

nasty · Post by **nasty** » 06 Feb 2004, 12:37

The thing about Lewis is that he never faced the 3 best heavyweights of his era at their peaks!

Mike Tyson was 36

Evander was 37

and the Fight with Riddick Bowe never happened because of Money and Lewis being scared to fight Bowe(according to Frank Maloney Biog 'No Baloney')

Also, his reign was hardly exiting or dominant!

He was knocked spark out by 2 mediocure opponents like Rahman and McCALL.

His career could be summed up more in terms of his dedication to his training and staying in better shape than his opponents!

There's no way he's a TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT and he certainly isn't the best heavyweight of his era!

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adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 06 Feb 2004, 12:43

nasty wrote:The thing about Lewis is that he never faced the 3 best heavyweights of his era at their peaks!

Mike Tyson was 36

Evander was 37

and the Fight with Riddick Bowe never happened because of Money and Lewis being scared to fight Bowe(according to Frank Maloney Biog 'No Baloney')

Also, his reign was hardly exiting or dominant!

He was knocked spark out by 2 mediocure opponents like Rahman and McCALL.

His career could be summed up more in terms of his dedication to his training and staying in better shape than his opponents!

There's no way he's a TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT and he certainly isn't the best heavyweight of his era!

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irrespective of what Maloney says, I dont think Lennox can be blamed for the Bowe fight not happening. It always appeared the other way round, although i wasn't a boxing fan at the time and don't know all the details.

nasty · Post by **nasty** » 06 Feb 2004, 12:54

Trust me it was LEWIS'S FAULT that the Bowe fight didn't happen.

Basically after Bowe lost to Evander in their second fight, Rock newman offered to fight Lewis but Lewis turned down the offer due to Bowe getting more money for the fight than Lewis.

Look, Bowe was a far bigger star at that moment so it was crazy of Lewis to ask for more money than Bowe. Therefore it tells me that Lewis didn't want the fight!

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adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 06 Feb 2004, 13:05

nasty wrote:Trust me it was LEWIS'S FAULT that the Bowe fight didn't happen.

Basically after Bowe lost to Evander in their second fight, Rock newman offered to fight Lewis but Lewis turned down the offer due to Bowe getting more money for the fight than Lewis.

Look, Bowe was a far bigger star at that moment so it was crazy of Lewis to ask for more money than Bowe. Therefore it tells me that Lewis didn't want the fight!

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Well the WBC ordered the fight, so it should of at least gone to purse bids. As a result, Bowe publicly vacated the WBC title and Lennox was awarded it.

nasty · Post by **nasty** » 06 Feb 2004, 13:11

YES,

Your right to a degree but also wrong!

LENNOX LEWIS was unknown in the U.S at the time and wasn't seen as a sellable fighter.

Therefore BOWE was being offered $15 million to have a rematch with holyfield or $5 million to fight Lewis.

This was a NO BRAINER

Of course Bowe went for the rematch with HOLYFIELD and dumped the WBC in the bin.

When he lost in the second hloyfield fight, he than offered to fight Lewis but Lewis turned him down.

So Lewis had a chance to fight Bowe and turned it down. ITS THAT SIMPLE!

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2004 WILL BE THE YEAR OF MIKE TYSON
http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Parodies/Mike_Tyson.html
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fornicate THAT HORSE FACED FAKE JOHN KERRY
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adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 06 Feb 2004, 13:19

nasty wrote:YES,

Your right to a degree but also wrong!

LENNOX LEWIS was unknown in the U.S at the time and wasn't seen as a sellable fighter.

Therefore BOWE was being offered $15 million to have a rematch with holyfield or $5 million to fight Lewis.

This was a NO BRAINER

Of course Bowe went for the rematch with HOLYFIELD and dumped the WBC in the bin.

When he lost in the second hloyfield fight, he than offered to fight Lewis but Lewis turned him down.

So Lewis had a chance to fight Bowe and turned it down. ITS THAT SIMPLE!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004 WILL BE THE YEAR OF MIKE TYSON
http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Parodies/Mike_Tyson.html
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fornicate THAT HORSE FACED FAKE JOHN KERRY
VOTE FOR THE GREATEST PRESIDENT AMERICA WILL EVER HAVE!
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unknown? Olympic Gold medalist, the guy who beat Bowe in the final, he KOd Razor Ruddock in 2 rounds. The fight wouldn't sell?

kevo · Post by **kevo** » 06 Feb 2004, 13:27

[quote="nasty"]
he certainly isn't the best heavyweight of his era!
quote]

Well who is then?

Fair enough, Tyson was 36, and Holyfeild was 37, but Lewis was no spring chicken himself when he beat these two. And then there's the fact that he beat every man to step in the ring with him.
As for the Bowe fight, you could argue who turned down the fight till you're blue in the face but the simple fact is Lennox would have destroyed him.

big lennox · Post by **big lennox** » 06 Feb 2004, 13:48

For me, Lennox is the best heavyweight I have seen.He had tremendous assetts: huge punching power, great balance, a big variety of combinations, excellent timing and a genuine willingness to meet the best.

I don't really understand why he is so underated in some quarters.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 06 Feb 2004, 14:05

Nasty is trying to rewrite history with regard to Bowe and Lewis. The BoxRec fight record for Bowe/Holyfield I sums it up succinctly:

"Scoring: 115-112, 117-110, 117-110
Holyfield down in 11th. Shortly thereafter Bowe relinquished the WBC title to avoid fighting Lennox Lewis, his mandatory challenger."

The simple fact is, Bowe lost badly to Lewis in the '88 Olympic final and wanted nothing to do with him as a pro.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Feb 2004, 14:17

I would put Lewis around the latter part of the top ten but no way top three, he was the best of his era and the fact he never fought Bowe and faced Tyson and Holyfield wa past there peaks is not really his fault. However i was impressed with Klitschko's comments, he could have laid into Lewis for avoiding a rematch but instead he showed his dignity and praised Lewis's decision, i thought it was a nice touch.

catweazle · Post by **catweazle** » 07 Feb 2004, 22:32

Yet again,Nasty makes up his own hitory of the division,according to his ill-judged opinion.Lewis unknown in America,who are you trying to convince?
Ducking Bowe ? Be real. Facing fighters past their sell-by date THEN claiming 2004 will be Tysons year?
Your getting worse.
Consider a lobotomy,it may help

hide · Post by **hide** » 07 Feb 2004, 22:55

lewis beat every opponent possible,he dodged NOONE ok he may have not done it in the most convincing manner ,but hey who in the last ten years could have beat him?give him the credit he deserves ,ok maybe Tyson would have beat him in his prime but guess what we will never find out ,but it is it is his fault that fight was,nt made?Lewis is the best ighter of his era what more do you want the guy to do,not every opponent out in the first round?

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 08 Feb 2004, 08:24

I'd put Lewis in at about 6 or so on an all time list.

I know one thing, I cetrtainly wouldn't put Tyson, Holyfield, or as Colin Hart has done Riddick Bowe above him - Not in an all time top ten list anyway.

Lewis was a good fighter, he beat everyone he faced, even if it it did take two attempts, and never ducked anyone.

What will I remember about Lewis?

The night he fought Ruddock. It showed that the British would have really gotten behind Lennox, but for his sporadic fighting in this country, and who can forget Golota's face when he got put on his arse. Brilliant.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 08 Feb 2004, 08:33

twinkle toes: to be fair between 89-94 he fought here a lot. but when he lost to mccall he had to go over to the states and re-establish himself unlike before where he was calling the shots a bit more.

lewis was a gr8 fighter alright

what u have to look at is his longevity and dominance.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Feb 2004, 08:55

For me Lennox was a good fighter but not a great one. He could've fought Tyson in the early 90s but took a payout to step aside... I have always been bothered by this. The Tyson who fought Lennox was just a shell of even the tyson that Holifield beat. I would place Holifeild above Lewis in terms of greatness... the early 90s Holifield would have been to fast and too busy for Lennox. On ability I would put a peak Tyson and Bowe above Lennox too.... but Lennox did more with his talent so should be praised for that.
Lennox is in the top 15 of all time haevyweight champs, but no higher... he ruled over a very limited division and his best wins came against fighters who were well past their best... also his losses to Mccall and Rahman show that his chin was only adequate.... you need more for real greatness!...

Deserter · Post by **Deserter** » 08 Feb 2004, 10:26

bennie wrote:So what will Lewis be remembered for? For me, it was the win over "Razor" Ruddock in 1992, when he showed he was true world class. But that's two rounds and two rounds only. My overall feeling is one of disappointment with Lewis. He had the ability to win like he did against Ruddock in so many other fights in my opinion, but he lacked the fire.

Couldn't agree with you more on this Bennie. I remember being ecstatic at Lewis's performance that night as I'd been very nervous beforehand given Ruddock's performances against Tyson.
Nothing he's done since then has lit that spark in quite the same way and you always felt he was capable of so much more in many of his performances (admittedly I've never seen the Rahman rematch or the Golota blow-out).
While it's hard to argue with his record and his natural athletic gifts, I've never warmed to Lewis in the way I thought I would. He probably does deserve to be ranking in the top 10, but for purely subjective reasons I find it difficult to bestow the word 'great' on him.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 08 Feb 2004, 10:54

Lewis I think should go between 8 and 12 in the all time top ten, but no higher and no lower. Top 3 is rediculous.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 09 Feb 2004, 14:04

During what has to be the worst era in the history of the Heavyweight division, Lennox Lewis managed to get knocked out by journeymen, twice, yes twice. And those were journeymen in the worst era of the divisions history.

One of the best of his time? Yes.

One of the best of all time? Gimme a break!

nasty · Post by **nasty** » 09 Feb 2004, 14:12

The best thing I can say about LEWIS is that he was a very dedicated boxer in terms of training and discipline and managed to outlast other superior boxer's by simply leading a monkesqe Life compared to his rivals like Tyson, Holyfield and bowe who all would have beaten him at their peaks!

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2004 WILL BE THE YEAR OF MIKE TYSON
http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Parodies/Mike_Tyson.html
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VOTE FOR THE GREATEST PRESIDENT AMERICA WILL EVER HAVE!
VOTE DOCTOR HOWARD DEAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004
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Was Lennox really that great?

Was Lennox really that great?

Over n over..

Re: Was Lennox really that great?