NY TIMES SETTLES ALI-LISTON II QUESTION

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Mar 2008, 14:48

I am happy to see that the NEW YORK TIMES (with the help of a woman writer for the VILLAGE VOICE) has settled with finality the question of the legitimacy of the second Ali-Liston "fight."
___________________________________________________________

Sonny Liston: He Never Knew What Hit Him

NY TIMES By ALLEN BARRA: May 21, 2000

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9669C8B63

AMERICANS love a conspiracy theory, whether it concerns the murder of a president or the defeat of a boxer. And so it is that Muhammad Ali, who easily dispatched Sonny Liston in the ring, may never beat him in the arena of popular mythology and public opinion. There, Liston may forever be bobbing and weaving, held up by the famous ''phantom punch'' that floored him in their heavyweight championship fight in 1965.

The myth of that punch in the second fight between the men not only refuses to die, it's making a comeback just in time for the 35th anniversary of the bout, May 25. Nick Tosches's new book, ''The Devil and Sonny Liston'' (Little, Brown) and a coming biographical movie starring Ving Raymes are reviving old theories that the Mob or the Black Muslims or someone besides Ali knocked out Liston.

It is hard to recall at this distance the hold these two fighters held over the popular imagination, even among those who had no interest in boxing. Among the fight crowd, no heavyweight since Joe Louis in his early 20's carried such an aura of invincibility as Liston. He stood 6 feet 1 inches and weighed about 215 pounds, big in an era of small heavyweights. But with his 15-inch fists, 17 1/2-inch neck and menacing scowl, he appeared bigger and more terrifying than the tape indicated.

Liston also had a well-deserved reputation for violence. He had learned to box in prison and had been an arm breaker for the St. Louis mob, which controlled his career. Blinkie Palermo, who controlled much of big-time boxing in the 1950's, was one of Liston's patrons, and a man with ties to ''Murder, Incorporated.''

Liston seemed to cow his opponents even before they stepped into the ring. Floyd Patterson, from whom Liston took the heavyweight belt, appeared almost paralyzed by fear. And Liston's punching power, particularly a paralyzing left hook to the body, was awesome. He could also take a punch, having once fought almost an entire fight with a broken jaw.

By contrast, in 1964, at the time of the first fight, Cassius Clay, as Ali was then known, was viewed by the boxing establishment as little more than a sideshow freak. Screaming ''I am so pretty!'' and spouting rhymes that predicted when he would knock out his opponents were not how tough guys were supposed to behave. Given his youth (22 at the time) and his unorthodox style, which included holding his hands at his sides and leaning away from punches, most boxing writers thought the only question was whether Liston would permanently injure or kill him. This was reflected in the odds at fight time, which were seven to one against Clay.

And then Clay won in what may have been boxing's most shocking upset.

To watch that fight on video today, however, is not to see an upset. Rather, one sees the fastest heavyweight in boxing history battering an overconfident, under-trained and probably over-the-hill champ (Liston's age was listed as anywhere from 29 to 31, but most people believe he was some years older than the latter figure). Liston was badly cut around both eyes (the left eye would require the attention of a plastic surgeon), and was unable to answer the bell for round seven, claiming an injury to his left shoulder. The skeptics initially scoffed, but Alexander Robbins of the Miami Beach Boxing Commission, one of seven physicians to examine Liston, declared, ''There's no doubt in my mind the fight should be stopped.'' In fact, Liston had torn his biceps.

FIFTEEN months later the men met again in Lewiston, Me., Clay now reborn as Muhammad Ali. As with the first fight, interest in the fight far transcended boxing's usual boundaries. This time however, the odds were just seven to five in favor of Liston.

Just past the first minute of the first round, Ali knocked Liston cold, with a punch that almost nobody saw, even those at ringside. Immediately, there were rumors of a fix -- that Liston had taken a dive. The famous sportswriter Jimmy Cannon, who hated Ali, called the fight a ''swindle of a charade.'' The New York Times ran an editorial predicting that ''a sport as sick as this one surely cannot survive much longer.''

What really happened? The fight was covered both by closed circuit television and by a film camera. The broadcast tape provides no help; the cameras were placed in both fighters' corners, in such a way that the punching action was never clearly seen unless both men were broadside to one of the lenses. The film is only marginally better. It was shot from above the ring and from an angle that completely obscures Ali's right hand and the left side of Liston's jaw as the knockout punch was delivered. Both for what it does and doesn't reveal, this has become boxing's Zapruder film.

SPORTS ILLUSTRATED published a frame-by-frame analysis of the film in its June 7, 1965, issue, concluding that Liston was, in fact, knocked out. In the first panel of a four-shot sequence, Ali is seen pulling back to avoid a Liston jab; in the second, he is planting his weight on his left foot, while throwing a short right hand over Liston's left hand; in the third, the punch is just about to land; in the fourth, Sonny's head is snapped sideways the force of the blow, which actually lifts Liston's left foot -- the one his weight was on -- off the canvas, as can be seen by the shadow under Liston's foot.

Liston doubled the blow's impact by stepping directly into it, and Barbara Long, who covered the fight for The Village Voice and was seated behind Ali's corner, recalled that Liston had reacted, when hit, ''like a man on a bicycle hitting a low-lying branch.''

There is also circumstantial evidence that argues in favor of a knockout. No major crime figure was known to have made big money from betting on Clay in the first fight; and in the second fight, with the odds so close, it would have been impossible to make a killing betting on either man. Nor has any Black Muslim involvement, like a threat against Liston's life, ever been proven.

Jim Murray, perhaps the most respected sportswriter in the country at the time, never doubted what happened. ''What happened?'' he wrote in The Los Angeles Times. ''Well, I'll tell you what happened. Sonny Liston got the hell beat out of him is what happened. This time I was looking for it and I saw it: an old man groping his way into a speedy insolent reckless kid.''

Murray's shot seems right on target, but it's hard to knock out a myth.

___________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________

Certainly a relief to have all this settled by the NY TIMES.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Mar 2008, 17:10

I've seen the frame by frame, and it is pretty convincing that Sonny got seperated from his senses for a few moments.

Now that granberry has FINALLY seen the light and agrees that this event actually took place, we can all get some well deserved rest and relaxation. With no more wimpering, whining or mocking of or about the FACTS of the matter.

But you know that ol' knucklehead granny, he's going to say he punked me because it's all part of the conspiracy and I was once again taken for that eight year old ride. (article came out in 2000)

A female wrote that so it can't be so. And everything in bold is laughable....I would actually agree with the "out cold" being laughable .....he was divorced from reality for only a few seconds from what I could see. And it seemed to stun JJW more than it did Sonny. But Sonny knew what was coming was going to be more of the same and he took the safe road. He had no confidence at that moment.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Mar 2008, 19:49

buzz and the woman writer for the VILLAGE VOICE agree.

That settles it for sure.

.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:22

Whats a sheila know about the sport anyhows :)

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:31

''The Devil and Sonny Liston''

The book's shit, making claims that Moore threw his fight against Marciano. I hold no stock in such bullshit rubbish.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:31

"planting his weight on his left foot"

is a real winner.

Perhaps buzz and his cohorts can explain how you can throw a right hand

with your weight on your left foot.

LOL

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:37

granberry wrote:"planting his weight on his left foot"

is a real winner.

Perhaps buzz and his cohorts can explain how you can throw a right hand

with your weight on your left foot.

LOL

Almost as good as that one you came out with:

If a southpaw threw a left hook he'd punch himself in the face

LOL

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:43

Why would Moore throw his fight against Rocky ? Thats queer though you do hear on these forums theories about the Rock a fair bit.
Moore came close to souring the deal if that is close then.

Granberry you can throw a right with your left planted...in some queer gun fu styles. Though I douby Liston is the type to waste his time doing that.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Mar 2008, 20:53

Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:"planting his weight on his left foot"

is a real winner.

Perhaps buzz and his cohorts can explain how you can throw a right hand

with your weight on your left foot.

LOL

Almost as good as that one you came out with:

If a southpaw threw a left hook he'd punch himself in the face

LOL

collins, buzz, and the other stalwarts of boxrec

throw a right hand with their weight on their left foot.

Good stuff.

Do the women boxing 'experts' they thrill to teach them how to do that?

That is the epitome of the internet poster on 'boxing'---- incompetent--and AGGRESSIVE about it.

Now they can add the deep thoughts of this NEW YORK TIMES 'expert' to their 'boxing library.'

LOL

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 18 Mar 2008, 21:03

Liston asked how he was supposed to have gotten up when Ali was not in the neutral corner and it can clearly be seen on the film that after he gets to a knee, Ali's legs skip into the frame and Liston, seeing him, rolls onto his back looking up at him. If we discount the idea that Liston threw the fight we are left with a flash knockdown and a clueless referee losing control of the bout and calling it off when it should not have been because the editor of a magazine told him that he should. Ali should have been admonished and the fight should have continued.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:21

mrbassie wrote:Liston asked how he was supposed to have gotten up when Ali was not in the neutral corner and it can clearly be seen on the film that after he gets to a knee, Ali's legs skip into the frame and Liston, seeing him, rolls onto his back looking up at him. If we discount the idea that Liston threw the fight we are left with a flash knockdown and a clueless referee losing control of the bout and calling it off when it should not have been because the editor of a magazine told him that he should. Ali should have been admonished and the fight should have continued.

I agree, though it would simply have been putting off the inevitable similar ending.

granberry, you need to learn to read. I actually agreed with much of your point. I suppose if I don't agree with everything you say then I'm a shill. I do however think that shot rung Sonny's bell it's easy to see in the frame by frame which I"m sure you've never seen. And Sonny LOST HIS WILL AND CONFIDENCE...so why continue? He knew full well how that night was going to end, with our without JJW"s bit of incompetence.

It rang Sonny's bell clearly, but not quite as much as it rang JJW's. And granny's been ringing bells ever since that night.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:22

Boxing expert granberry stated several times:

If a southpaw threw a left hook he'd punch himself in the face

LOL

It's lucky granberry has never had anything to do with training fighters

LOL

.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:28

Collins2000 wrote:Boxing expert granberry stated several times:

If a southpaw threw a left hook he'd punch himself in the face

LOL

It's lucky granberry has never had anything to do with training fighters

LOL

.

A lot you know Collins, the reason granberry can speak with authority on this issue is that HE IS A SOUTHPAW and proves this bit of physics on a daily basis. It actually explains a lot....

Now don't you feel foolish for doubting?

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:49

The technique of those eternally clueless on boxing like buzz and his cohorts

is evidently to clutter the site continually with their drivel until no one cares to bother with it

and they have it all for themselves and their pathetic regurgitation of Religion of Ali talking points.
.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:22

Only Clutter on these forums is coming from you Gran

Nothing Personal

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:58

BoxBuzz wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:Boxing expert granberry stated several times:

If a southpaw threw a left hook he'd punch himself in the face

LOL

It's lucky granberry has never had anything to do with training fighters

LOL

.
A lot you know Collins, the reason granberry can speak with authority on this issue is that HE IS A SOUTHPAW and proves this bit of physics on a daily basis. It actually explains a lot....

Now don't you feel foolish for doubting?

Southpaw granberry shows the evidence

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Mar 2008, 00:55

Popeye The Sailor Man! Popeye The Sailor Man! He's Strong To The Finish Cus He Eats His Spinach! Popeye The Sailor Man! Uck Uck Uck Uck!

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 19 Mar 2008, 02:07

The retards of boxrec show up to trash as much as they can.

And all of them know so much about boxing that they throw a right hand with their weight on their left foot.

Turn boxrec to trash, girls.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Mar 2008, 02:15

granberry wrote:The retards of boxrec show up to trash as much as they can.

And all of them know so much about boxing that they throw a right hand with their weight on their left foot.

Turn boxrec to trash, girls.

You are just pissed because you got another kick up the arse in "the greatest thread ever".

LOL

.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 19 Mar 2008, 03:33

collins is going to ask his boy Baltazar on the west coast thread if he taught his kids to put their weight on their left foot before they threw a right hand.

LOL

Then collins is going to ask Farris if he was taught to put his weight on his left foot before he threw a right hand.

Then collins is going to report back here on what they tell him.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Mar 2008, 04:49

granberry wrote:collins is going to ask his boy Baltazar on the west coast thread if he taught his kids to put their weight on their left foot before they threw a right hand.

LOL

Then collins is going to ask Farris if he was taught to put his weight on his left foot before he threw a right hand.

Then collins is going to report back here on what they tell him.

Oh dear. You do sound pissed, granberry.

Is it because the real boxing guys have now taken to openly laughing in your stupid face?

LOL

.

granberry posing for the camera

LOL

.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 19 Mar 2008, 08:16

In the 2nd fight the fact that Ali stood over him and told him to get up is the best evidence that he thought Liston dived.

It could be though that Walcott's inept refereeing and Fleischer's wrongful intervention just made it seem fake.

This topic will come up again and again and we'll still never know.

Didn't Jaclem once say he met one of the Ali entourage who told him about the 'ankle' punch...

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 19 Mar 2008, 08:18

Ezzard wrote:Didn't Jaclem once say he met one of the Ali entourage who told him about the 'ankle' punch...

Ali called it the "anchor" punch.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 19 Mar 2008, 09:12

The Great John L wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Didn't Jaclem once say he met one of the Ali entourage who told him about the 'ankle' punch...
Ali called it the "anchor" punch.

That's right and the guy who claimed to have taught it to himn called it the 'ankle' punch... I think that's hwo the story went. maybe jaclem will enlighten us...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 19 Mar 2008, 13:20

Terry D wrote:
granberry wrote:"planting his weight on his left foot"

is a real winner.

Perhaps buzz and his cohorts can explain how you can throw a right hand

with your weight on your left foot.

LOL
Easily actually. Especially if you are moving in a circle then stop to deliver the blow without setting it up with a left, especially, as it was in this case, if the shot is a counter shot.

Turning your shoulder over to deliver the blow after coming to a stop will put the weight onto your lead foot.

An orthodox fighter has his left foot leading.

Learn how to read, Terry.

Boxing experts buzz and his cohorts are crowing that

you put your weight on your left foot before you start throwing a right hand.

Read the NY TIMES boxing 'expert' above.

I am still waiting for collins to give us the answer he gets from his boy Baltazar on the west coast thread to the question

Did he teach teach his kids to throw a right hand by putting their weight on their left foot and THEN throwing the right hand.

LOL