Jerry Quarry

[I Feel Fine]

Well when I say he looked incredibly slow I am thinking more about the latter rounds, but I do think you're right that he was tiring down by then. Either way, I agree with your analysis.

And, yeah, obviously Lyle might have been better if he had gotten an earlier start in boxing. He of course learned to box in prison, where he nearly died of a stab wound, and so he didn't have the background that Olympians like Ali and Foreman had.

I do think Ali fought a very casual fight against Lyle, I don't know that he would have been so frivolous about the fight if Lyle had tried to pressure him. But I do think Lyle was ahead at the time of the stoppage by at least a couple of points.

Quarry was really impressive against Lyle. He was the more experienced fighter and showed a lot of maturity in the fight, I thought. He really fought a smart fight. As I said earlier, '73 was a great year for Quarry, he really rebounded well from the Ali rematch. Then in '74, before the Frazier rematch, he survived a huge shot from Alexander, who put him down, and got up to score a knock out. Quarry was fun to watch.

[dempseyfire]

Well when I say he looked incredibly slow I am thinking more about the latter rounds, but I do think you're right that he was tiring down by then. Either way, I agree with your analysis.

And, yeah, obviously Lyle might have been better if he had gotten an earlier start in boxing. He of course learned to box in prison, where he nearly died of a stab wound, and so he didn't have the background that Olympians like Ali and Foreman had.

I do think Ali fought a very casual fight against Lyle, I don't know that he would have been so frivolous about the fight if Lyle had tried to pressure him. But I do think Lyle was ahead at the time of the stoppage by at least a couple of points.

Quarry was really impressive against Lyle. He was the more experienced fighter and showed a lot of maturity in the fight, I thought. He really fought a smart fight. As I said earlier, '73 was a great year for Quarry, he really rebounded well from the Ali rematch. Then in '74, before the Frazier rematch, he survived a huge shot from Alexander, who put him down, and got up to score a knock out. Quarry was fun to watch.

It's interesting to speculate. I think Ali post-Zaire had deteriorated quite a bit since his initial early 70s run (as seen in the sloppy sloppy Wepner fight). I think if Lyle had fought a more aggressive fight, albeit with controlled aggression and a heavy use of the jab, it could've well been a very different fight. But who knows . . Ali's right cross which put Ronnie on queer street is still one of the most abrupt and unsuspected moments in HW championship history IMO. Lyle was fairly durable, Ali was not a one-punch knockout puncher, but he suddenly turned the tables with one of the quickets straight rights you'll ever see a HW throw. These types of "how the hell he pull that off" moments are part of why Ali was one of the greatest.

[Ezzard]

I think this has been a great thread. I've really enjoyed reading the arguments put forward.

I do think that you guys should understand where Dave is coming from. If he's out there training amateurs then he has to grind his axe and put forward an argument that supports his efforts, and the blood and sweat of the guys he's training.

In BOTP it's easy for us to talk about the greats and forget about the guys who maybe don't have the god given talent but nevertheless are trying to do their best in the sport we all love.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Jerry Quarry fought with a broken ankle, a broken back, and hepatitis...

That is unbelievable courage....


RIP

[actjac]

I believe that Quarry would have been the greatest cruiserweight champion ever had the division been available during his career. He fought and beat some very good heavyweights and fought well in losing to some all time greats.

[My2Sense]

Edit: This thread was originally asking about Quarry's fights with Ellis and Chuvalo, but it turns out Quarry's fight with Chuvalo is now on youtube so I just watched it, strange ending but good fight...

Anyway, my question is; what happened in Quarry's fight with Ellis? It seems like a winnable fight for Quarry, that could have enhanced him a great deal, particularly because he would have won the vacant belt. Did he have trouble with Ellis' style?

Also, was there ever any talk of a rematch between Quarry and Chuvalo? Or with Ellis?

Thanks in advance. Any thoughts on Quarry as "the best Heavyweight never to win a belt"? He beat Lyle and Shavers, and those are two guys who often get that moniker.

I think Quarry's label as "the best heavyweight never to win a belt" is total BS, and fights like Chuvalo and Ellis are exactly the reason why.

People make it sound as if his only losses were to Ali and Frazier, and that if neither of them were around the way would be open for him to win a title. In fact, he had a chance to become at least a partial champion against essentially a blown up light-heavy in Ellis, and he blew it. (To be fair, though, there was some talk at some point that Quarry entered the fight with an injured back).

I'm not even sure Quarry was the best "non-champion" heavyweight in his own time, let alone all time. For example, I think a case could certainly be made that Oscar Bonavena was better. Bonavena gave both Ali and Frazier far better fights than Quarry ever did, and he succeeded in beating Chuvalo. I also think Eddie Machen (who beat Quarry) and Zora Folley might deserve to be rated as better as well.

[Robinson]

My2Sense

I have to agree with you on this one.

[raylawpc]

Edit: This thread was originally asking about Quarry's fights with Ellis and Chuvalo, but it turns out Quarry's fight with Chuvalo is now on youtube so I just watched it, strange ending but good fight...

Anyway, my question is; what happened in Quarry's fight with Ellis? It seems like a winnable fight for Quarry, that could have enhanced him a great deal, particularly because he would have won the vacant belt. Did he have trouble with Ellis' style?

Also, was there ever any talk of a rematch between Quarry and Chuvalo? Or with Ellis?

Thanks in advance. Any thoughts on Quarry as "the best Heavyweight never to win a belt"? He beat Lyle and Shavers, and those are two guys who often get that moniker.

I think Quarry's label as "the best heavyweight never to win a belt" is total BS, and fights like Chuvalo and Ellis are exactly the reason why.

People make it sound as if his only losses were to Ali and Frazier, and that if neither of them were around the way would be open for him to win a title. In fact, he had a chance to become at least a partial champion against essentially a blown up light-heavy in Ellis, and he blew it. (To be fair, though, there was some talk at some point that Quarry entered the fight with an injured back).

I'm not even sure Quarry was the best "non-champion" heavyweight in his own time, let alone all time. For example, I think a case could certainly be made that Oscar Bonavena was better. Bonavena gave both Ali and Frazier far better fights than Quarry ever did, and he succeeded in beating Chuvalo. I also think Eddie Machen (who beat Quarry) and Zora Folley might deserve to be rated as better as well.

I don't personally have an opinion who was the best heavyweight "never to wear a belt." You could go w a y back, and one who immediately comes to mind is Peter Jackson.

In Quarry's defense, he was not too far into the pro ranks and undefeated when he fought Machen. He later said that he was overconfident and went into the fight ill-prepared. One wonders who would have won had a prime Quarry met a prime Machen.

[Robinson]

What also for me separates Quarry from other guys touted as the
best never to 'wear a belt' is that Quarry had PLENTY of chances
to win his title. Quarry was never avoided by the top men.

Legends like Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Sam McVey,
Joe Jeaneette never got a title shot or never got to face a top
contender in the spot light...they were simply avoided and
not aknowledged by the Jack London's of the world.

While Quarry may have been able to beat some of these guys
head to head, he simply was as 'deserving' as such a handle as
many of those men.

Kym

[p4p1]

What also for me separates Quarry from other guys touted as the
best never to 'wear a belt' is that Quarry had PLENTY of chances
to win his title. Quarry was never avoided by the top men.

Legends like Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Sam McVey,
Joe Jeaneette never got a title shot or never got to face a top
contender in the spot light...they were simply avoided and
not aknowledged by the Jack London's of the world.

While Quarry may have been able to beat some of these guys
head to head, he simply was as 'deserving' as such a handle as
many of those men.

Kym

[My2Sense]

What also for me separates Quarry from other guys touted as the
best never to 'wear a belt' is that Quarry had PLENTY of chances
to win his title. Quarry was never avoided by the top men.

Legends like Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Sam McVey,
Joe Jeaneette never got a title shot or never got to face a top
contender in the spot light...they were simply avoided and
not aknowledged by the Jack London's of the world.

Agreed.

[My2Sense]

In Quarry's defense, he was not too far into the pro ranks and undefeated when he fought Machen. He later said that he was overconfident and went into the fight ill-prepared. One wonders who would have won had a prime Quarry met a prime Machen.

Quarry always had an excuse. On the flip side, Machen was well past his best (I doubt he was even ranked anymore).

Don't get me wrong, one loss to Machen (even an "old" one) isn't the worst thing in the world in and of itself, but it's losses like that in "winnable" fights that typified Quarry's career and were as much a factor in him not winning a title as anything.

[raylawpc]

In Quarry's defense, he was not too far into the pro ranks and undefeated when he fought Machen. He later said that he was overconfident and went into the fight ill-prepared. One wonders who would have won had a prime Quarry met a prime Machen.

Quarry always had an excuse. On the flip side, Machen was well past his best (I doubt he was even ranked anymore).

Don't get me wrong, one loss to Machen (even an "old" one) isn't the worst thing in the world in and of itself, but it's losses like that in "winnable" fights that typified Quarry's career and were as much a factor in him not winning a title as anything.

Rick Farris would know but, but if I recall, Jerry never used that excuse after the Machen fight (except, perhaps, for Norton which he supposedly took on short-notice). He was quoted as saying that he never took an opponent lightly after his loss to Machen.

[Ambling Alp]

I agree that you hear a lot of excuses with Quarry. and I don't think that he was as good as Langford,Wills,Jeanette, or McVey. However since that time, I think you can argue that he was the best non-champion since then.

I think allof his losses excpet for the last one against Cramner should count when rating him.
However, you also have to look at his wins-Patterson,Spencer,Mathis,Foster,Lyle, and Shavers.

You certainly can make a case for the guys mentioned-Folley,Machen,and Bonavena.

They had their ups and downs as well.
Folley did beat Machen,Jones, Cleroux,Copper, and Chuvalo. He also got ko's 3 times by ordinary fighters, and lost a decision to Henry Cooper. Lost to Terrell.Crushed by Liston. Also ko'd by Jones.

Machen-Beat Jones and had a draw with Machen. Did better against a prime Liston than anyone but Ali. However, he got ko'd by Johannson in the first round, lost to Folley, lost to Patterson, lost to Terrell. Beat Quarry.

Bonavena-Beat Chuvalo,Mildenberger, Leotis Martin. Was more competitive with Ali and Frazier than Quarry.
However he lost to Lyle, lost a 37 year old Patterson, lost to Ellis.

You sort of have a murky picture. I lean towards Quarry, but you could make a case for one of the other guys. None of these guys (Folley,Machen,Bonavena or Quarry) were legends, but were very good fighters.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

It is sure sad what happened to him...All three Quarry brothers suffered or suffer from pugilist dementia....Bobby is still alive...