Classic American West Coast Boxing

[dagosd2000]

D & rick, when're you two going to get together and co-write a story? I'll bet that it would be a gem.

Pal, I don't know how Rick feels,but I think we're bothing having the time of our lives. What would we do? Tell each other how and what to write? Frank,Pug,Scar,Bennie,et al,my stories are for you guys. I think Rick probably feels the same way. I don't paint or write unless I'm inspired to do so. When I see your old photos and read your comments,the creative juices start to flow.

[bennie]

[granberry]

There are a number of films of Carnera.

He was very well taught.
They had competent trainers in those days.

He used a good left jab, made use of his strength, and his heaviest punch was a right uppercut.
Interesting that the other giant heavyweight champion Jess Willard's best punch was also his right uppercut.

Carnera had a great chin and great courage.

Some people say Max Baer was the heaviest puncher ever.
Notice that Carnera got up every time he was floored by Baer.
And the fight went to the 11th round with the ref stopping it.
The ref let the fight get completely out of his control and Baer was fouling like mad. One of the worst jobs of refereeing ever.

Bud Shulberg's The Harder They Fall is garbage as far as depicting Carnera.

From the films I see, Carnera was a very well taught fighter who made good use of his advantages in height and strength.
He was also very well conditioned.

Granberry, who were some of the great teachers who taught Carnera?

I'll leave that for you to find out, ray.

Find who taught him to make such good use of his height and size by the way he used such a LONG left jab.

Find who taught him to get his weight into his right uppercut which worked so well against fighters shorter than he was.

Find who taught him how to use his weight and strength in a clinch.
The film of his title defense against Tommy Loughran is easily available.
What did Carnera do that made Loughran into an exhausted wreck later in the fight?

The same Loughran who outpointed Max Baer by lopsided decision.

The same Loughran who beat heavyweights Steve Hamas, King Levinsky, Paulino Uzcudun, Johnny Risko, Jack Sharkey, etc.

Go to it boy. That is your assignment.

LOL

[kikibalt]

D & rick, when're you two going to get together and co-write a story? I'll bet that it would be a gem.

Pal, I don't know how Rick feels,but I think we're bothing having the time of our lives. What would we do? Tell each other how and what to write? Frank,Pug,Scar,Bennie,et al,my stories are for you guys. I think Rick probably feels the same way. I don't paint or write unless I'm inspired to do so. When I see your old photos and read your comments,the creative juices start to flow.

What I meant was to co-author a boxing novel, with Rick's L.A. experience
s and your San Diego and T.J experience's and it can't help but be a classic.

[granberry]

I don't know who he's with there, but I have an old boxing book depicting Carnera showing up in England palling around with some other fighters, all donned in suits, but they were all flyweights. Apparently one of the big publicity gimmicks they were employing with Carnera was always surrounding him with smaller fighters to enhance his already giant proportions. Incidentally, Youtube has a great film of Carnera's first fight with Jack Sharkey. Sharkey nails him about the 4th round I think, with a smokin' left hook. Carnera goes down, gets up, then goes back to one knee. Sharkey goes ballistic, runs across the ring yelling to the ref it should be automatically stopped. I don't know what the rules were in those days, why Sharkey thought it should be stopped rather than resume the count, but he claimed Carnera going down the second time is an automatic stoppage. They had to restrain Sharkey from leaving the ring he was so pissed. It's a great highlight film and well worth it for that leaping left hook. The style Patterson made famous, or the 15th round knockdown of Ali by Frazier or the 1st knockdown of Joe Louis in the 8th round by Marciano. Very similar and again, smokin'!!!

Scartissue

scar,

Watch it again.

Sharkey set up Carnera for the left hook to the head that knocked him down

by throwing 8 powerful left hooks to the body from long range.

Left hook to the body, clinch, seperate, again left hook to the body, etc.

That set up Carnera to expect yet another, but Sharkey then switched the last one to the head.

[BoxBuzz]

There are a number of films of Carnera.

He was very well taught.
They had competent trainers in those days.

He used a good left jab, made use of his strength, and his heaviest punch was a right uppercut.
Interesting that the other giant heavyweight champion Jess Willard's best punch was also his right uppercut.

Carnera had a great chin and great courage.

Some people say Max Baer was the heaviest puncher ever.
Notice that Carnera got up every time he was floored by Baer.
And the fight went to the 11th round with the ref stopping it.
The ref let the fight get completely out of his control and Baer was fouling like mad. One of the worst jobs of refereeing ever.

Bud Shulberg's The Harder They Fall is garbage as far as depicting Carnera.

From the films I see, Carnera was a very well taught fighter who made good use of his advantages in height and strength.
He was also very well conditioned.

Granberry, who were some of the great teachers who taught Carnera?

I'll leave that for you to find out, ray.

Find who taught him to make such good use of his height and size by the way he used such a LONG left jab.

Find who taught him to get his weight into his right uppercut which worked so well against fighters shorter than he was.

Find who taught him how to use his weight and strength in a clinch.
The film of his title defense against Tommy Loughran is easily available.
What did Carnera do that made Loughran into an exhausted wreck later in the fight?

The same Loughran who outpointed Max Baer by lopsided decision.

The same Loughran who beat heavyweights Steve Hamas, King Levinsky, Paulino Uzcudun, Johnny Risko, Jack Sharkey, etc.

Go to it boy. That is your assignment.

LOL

It would be more fun to find the person that paid Sharkey to willingly take that shot that put him down in the second fight. Yep he took the shot and it was genuine, but he was giving Carnera the target the whole time...the amazing thing was how long it took Carnera to do something with the target Sharkey was giving him. Sharkey had too much pride to go down without it being a shot that could be seen as getting the job done.

Now to my way of thinking the person that paid Sharkey to take that dive actually existed and the info can likely be discovered someday somehow by a well inspired detective on the subject. However to find who trained Carnera to fight so "good" would be like trying to find a leprechaun.

However some people will tell you that both actually exist.

[granberry]

Granberry, who were some of the great teachers who taught Carnera?

I'll leave that for you to find out, ray.

Find who taught him to make such good use of his height and size by the way he used such a LONG left jab.

Find who taught him to get his weight into his right uppercut which worked so well against fighters shorter than he was.

Find who taught him how to use his weight and strength in a clinch.
The film of his title defense against Tommy Loughran is easily available.
What did Carnera do that made Loughran into an exhausted wreck later in the fight?

The same Loughran who outpointed Max Baer by lopsided decision.

The same Loughran who beat heavyweights Steve Hamas, King Levinsky, Paulino Uzcudun, Johnny Risko, Jack Sharkey, etc.

Go to it boy. That is your assignment.

LOL

It would be more fun to find the person that paid Sharkey to willingly take that shot that put him down in the second fight. Yep he took the shot and it was genuine, but he was giving Carnera the target the whole time...the amazing thing was how long it took Carnera to do something with the target Sharkey was giving him. Sharkey had too much pride to go down without it being a shot that could be seen as getting the job done.

Now to my way of thinking the person that paid Sharkey to take that dive actually existed and the info can likely be discovered someday somehow by a well inspired detective on the subject. However to find who trained Carnera to fight so "good" would be like trying to find a leprechaun.

However some people will tell you that both actually exist.

buzz' ignorance is offended when anyone posts something that shows actual knowledge of boxing and its technical fundamentals.

Go back to your Ali collection, buzz.

[BoxBuzz]

C'mcon gran nothing personal here. You are saying Carnera was a great technician and I disagree. Simple as that. I do believe that Sharkey did not give his best that day of their second encounter and you may well think he did. Be a sport. Allow another opinion without getting personal.

I know Carnera had a fairly good education on the subject, I just think he was far short of the others in his era that ascended to the HW championship.

If I'm alone in that opinion, then that in itself should speak volumes within this group and I gracefully accept the unspoken admonishment.

[Collins2000]

Buzz' ignorance is offended when anyone posts something that shows actual knowledge of boxing and its technical fundamentals.

Like the time you announced that a southpaw throwing a left hook would punch himself in the face?

That gem told us all we needed to know of your capability to analyse and critique boxing technique.

[raylawpc]

There are a number of films of Carnera.

He was very well taught.
They had competent trainers in those days.

He used a good left jab, made use of his strength, and his heaviest punch was a right uppercut.
Interesting that the other giant heavyweight champion Jess Willard's best punch was also his right uppercut.

Carnera had a great chin and great courage.

Some people say Max Baer was the heaviest puncher ever.
Notice that Carnera got up every time he was floored by Baer.
And the fight went to the 11th round with the ref stopping it.
The ref let the fight get completely out of his control and Baer was fouling like mad. One of the worst jobs of refereeing ever.

Bud Shulberg's The Harder They Fall is garbage as far as depicting Carnera.

From the films I see, Carnera was a very well taught fighter who made good use of his advantages in height and strength.
He was also very well conditioned.

Granberry, who were some of the great teachers who taught Carnera?

I'll leave that for you to find out, ray.

Find who taught him to make such good use of his height and size by the way he used such a LONG left jab.

Find who taught him to get his weight into his right uppercut which worked so well against fighters shorter than he was.

Find who taught him how to use his weight and strength in a clinch.
The film of his title defense against Tommy Loughran is easily available.
What did Carnera do that made Loughran into an exhausted wreck later in the fight?

The same Loughran who outpointed Max Baer by lopsided decision.

The same Loughran who beat heavyweights Steve Hamas, King Levinsky, Paulino Uzcudun, Johnny Risko, Jack Sharkey, etc.

Go to it boy. That is your assignment.

LOL

Well, I'll decline your assignment. You had indicated that Carnera had great teachers, so I thought - this being a boxing discussion board - that you would share who those great teachers were.

[kikibalt]

Alexis Arguello vs Aaron Pryor

[Expug]

Scar, what did you think of the knockdown?
Was it shakey or am I imagining that.
Its been awhile.
The Ampitheatre was great.
A fun venue.
As a young kid I worked as an Andy Frain there on many occasions.
The wildest event being an Alice Cooper concert in maybe 77 or 78.
The seventies were weird man.


Pug, for the life of me I can't remember a knockdown in that fight. Like you said it wasn't a great fight but what I do remember was some altercation between them (funny thing saying altercation during a bout. Shouldn't the whole bout be an altercation?) and Duran getting really pissed and demanding Lanas stand his ground. But that was it for real excitement. I can't recall anyone really bummed out, we were all just so pleased seeing Duran live.

Scartissue

Thanks Scar.
Yeah maybe I got the knockdown wrong.
Its been awhile since that fight.
It was a fun event though and like you said the old Ampitheatre was a great place.
I also think of wrestling when I think of that place.

[Expug]

Nice story Rick.Thanks.
One time I came across some website that had a record of Primos wrestling matches.
There were MANY.
I know its choreographed and what not , but this of course was after the wear and tear of a long boxing career.
Getting thrown around by Lou Thesz and company after years of jumpin in there with the best heavyweights of his time had to be arduous to say the least.
I dont know if anyone took the amount of lumps that he did when ya get right down to it.
That rasslin may be staged but those guys are still kickin the hell out of each other with all those falls .
After being in judo for many years now, I can only imagine what Carnera felt like. The pounding of the wrestling of that era is similar.

Pug
You're right about wrestlers being a tough breed. At least the era of my time. I remember Lou Thesz as a kid. If somebody out there can help me with this,I think he used to have matches with Walcott or Charles. One would fight,the other wrestle. When I used to go down to the Coliseum to work out,the wrestlers would go through their routines after the fighters finished up. Guys like Freddie Blassie and Don Moonukian were tough guys and real good guys. Happy gp lucky. The fighters and trainers got along great with them.

There was a world famous wrestler who retired in San Diego,Jim Londos. He was only about 5 foot 8 inches,but he was respected and tough. It is said that when he went back to Greece(where he was born)he put on the a wrestling match in front of the largest crowd to witness a sporting event.
Once in a while he'd pop into Bob Johnston's Sport Palace down on Market Street. He'd tell stories and was very popular. The Johnston brothers handled a lot of fighters including Archie Moore, and the Sport Palace,when I was going in there,was on its last legs. The Hollywood Theater Burlesque ,which Johnston owned and was next door,was about to close and the neighborhood was filling up with winos. When the Hollywood shut its doors,it was the last burlesque house in the United States. Bob Johnston's wife still danced there. Texas Bobbie Roberts. Let me tell you fellas',she still had it after all those years. Soon after, the Sport Palace closed. I can remenber someone like Joe Foss walking in and sitting at the old upright playing old songs. After a while a crowd would gather and sing along.

They renovated that area where the Sport Palace and the Hollywood Theater used to be. They call it now, the Gaslamp. High priced condos and overpriced restaurants. Touristy. I walked by where the old Sport Palce used to be the other day. I swear I heard someone playing the piano.

Thanks Dagos.
The more I learn about Thesz, the more I respect his abilities.
He was a very dangerous guy a real "hooker"
Gene Lebell said he was the best , and that counts for ALOT.
Gene says Lou would have been able to walk through the five best grapplers in the world one after the other.
Quite a statement.

[dagosd2000]

Carnera is in a British movie made in 1954 and not a bit 'punchy', much to my relief.
He plays a wrestler.

Bennie
Last night they had the movie"The Prizefighter and The Lady" with Myrna Loy,Max Baer,and Primo Carnera. Also in the film waa Jack Dempsey,Jess Willard,Jim Jeffries,and Joe Rivers. Interesting film. Max Baer was not a bad actor. Carnera's men had them re write the script because in the original version they have Max winning the title from Primo. At the time Carnera was the champ. The re write has the fight a draw.

Also that is great shot of Carnera inside that crowd. Tell me,is Primo in Spaghettiland or some Italian neighborhood in New York?

[granberry]

Bennie
Last night they had the movie"The Prizefighter and The Lady" with Myrna Loy,Max Baer,and Primo Carnera. Also in the film waa Jack Dempsey,Jess Willard,Jim Jeffries,and Joe Rivers. Interesting film. Max Baer was not a bad actor. Carnera's men had them re write the script because in the original version they have Max winning the title from Primo. At the time Carnera was the champ. The re write has the fight a draw.

dagos,

ADD Billy Papke, Frank Moran, and Jackie Fields to that list.

[kikibalt]

'
Everett Burnett vs Robert Jarmans
1955--Golden Gloves

[kikibalt]

raylawpc wecome to this here thread, I know you will add some class to it.

[granberry]

JIMMY LONDOS

[dagosd2000]

I guess everything is relative. I liked going to boxing matches and I had worked out with a few fighters so to my friends I was an authority. We'd go to the fights and everyone would have the time of their lives. You think about it and not that many people have been to a boxing match or let alone gotten in a ring with the gloves on. To my friends I was a combination of The Ring Encyclopedia and Joe Louis rolled into one.

Well if you're the big fish in the small pond,after a while you think that pond is the Pacific Ocean. All I had to say is, "Let's go to the fights" and I had a car load. Funny,they wouldn't go unless I drove. Especially if we went to the fights in Tijuana. My pals weren't sissies,but I was the pied piper and guru and it was more fulfilling I guess to them if their "leader" was with them. The time came when I thought I'd organize a journey for them to see the matches at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.

We'd watch the fights on TV from the Olympic and the fellas were chomping at the bit to go. If the main event at the Olympic was a good one ,they wouldn't televise it and I could understand the reasoning. Aileen Eaton had been featuring Hedgemon Lewis on the TV main event and he was headed for his showdown with Indian Red Lopez. I knew that one wasn't going to be on the television so I figured that would be a good fight to break my pals into introducing them to the Olympic.

I didn't take any chances so I had my cousin who lived in Hollywood get the tickets in advance. That fight would be sold out. We got there with time to spare. The tickets were waitng at "will call" so everything was in order. On the ride up I was lecturing my buddies on the competition of the welter weight division at the time,previous fights that I had seen at the Olympic,the strategies that I thought Hedgemon Lewis and Indian Red were going to use against each other,and a history of boxing in the Southland. I was prepared in my mind that I wouldn't charge my friends money if they asked for my autograph.

We're standing in the "will call" line and one of my pals asked me who the painting of the fighter was on the outside wall of the Olympic Auditorium. For the times I'd seen that painting at the Olympic, I'd never had the curiosity to find out who that fighter was.

Well I couldn't show my fan club that I was ignorant, so I guessed with confidence and said "Baby Arizmendi". That sounded impressive. There's an old guy standing in front of us. He turned when I said Baby Arizmendi and said,"That's not Baby Arizmendi,that's Bert Colima"
"Oh",I said. My face ,I think ,was starting to change color.
"Bert Colima was the most popular fighter who ever came out of Los Angeles",said the old timer.
I had never heard of Bert Colima.
"Aways a crowd pleaser and a credit to the Mexican community."
I looked at my friends. I don't think they picked up on what the old guy said to me,and was too humiliated to ask them if they heard what he said.

We got to our seats. The fights were exciting. Lopez and Lewis put on a thriller that night. On the drive back to San Diego ,I kept thinking about how I was corrected by the old man in front of the Olympic. Or should I say, revealed. As we got near San Diego one of the guys sitting in the back asked me if there had ever been a heavyweight championship fight at the Olympic.
"I don't know", I answered. "I'll have to look that up for you."
That ,and the history of Bert Colima.

[kikibalt]

I guess everything is relative. I liked going to boxing matches and I had worked out with a few fighters so to my friends I was an authority. We'd go to the fights and everyone would have the time of their lives. You think about it and not that many people have been to a boxing match or let alone gotten in a ring with the gloves on. To my friends I was a combination of The Ring Encyclopedia and Joe Louis rolled into one.

Well if you're the big fish in the small pond,after a while you think that pond is the Pacific Ocean. All I had to say is, "Let's go to the fights" and I had a car load. Funny,they wouldn't go unless I drove. Especially if we went to the fights in Tijuana. My pals weren't sissies,but I was the pied piper and guru and it was more fulfilling I guess to them if their "leader" was with them. The time came when I thought I'd organize a journey for them to see the matches at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.

We'd watch the fights on TV from the Olympic and the fellas were chomping at the bit to go. If the main event at the Olympic was a good one ,they wouldn't televise it and I could understand the reasoning. Aileen Eaton had been featuring Hedgemon Lewis on the TV main event and he was headed for his showdown with Indian Red Lopez. I knew that one wasn't going to be on the television so I figured that would be a good fight to break my pals into introducing them to the Olympic.

I didn't take any chances so I had my cousin who lived in Hollywood get the tickets in advance. That fight would be sold out. We got there with time to spare. The tickets were waitng at "will call" so everything was in order. On the ride up I was lecturing my buddies on the competition of the welter weight division at the time,previous fights that I had seen at the Olympic,the strategies that I thought Hedgemon Lewis and Indian Red were going to use against each other,and a history of boxing in the Southland. I was prepared in my mind that I wouldn't charge my friends money if they asked for my autograph.

We're standing in the "will call" line and one of my pals asked me who the painting of the fighter was on the outside wall of the Olympic Auditorium. For the times I'd seen that painting at the Olympic, I'd never had the curiosity to find out who that fighter was.

Well I couldn't show my fan club that I was ignorant, so I guessed with confidence and said "Baby Arizmendi". That sounded impressive. There's an old guy standing in front of us. He turned when I said Baby Arizmendi and said,"That's not Baby Arizmendi,that's Bert Colima"
"Oh",I said. My face ,I think ,was starting to change color.
"Bert Colima was the most popular fighter who ever came out of Los Angeles",said the old timer.
I had never heard of Bert Colima.
"Aways a crowd pleaser and a credit to the Mexican community."
I looked at my friends. I don't think they picked up on what the old guy said to me,and was too humiliated to ask them if they heard what he said.

We got to our seats. The fights were exciting. Lopez and Lewis put on a thriller that night. On the drive back to San Diego ,I kept thinking about how I was corrected by the old man in front of the Olympic. Or should I say, revealed. As we got near San Diego one of the guys sitting in the back asked me if there had ever been a heavyweight championship fight at the Olympic.
"I don't know", I answered. "I'll have to look that up for you."
That ,and the history of Bert Colima.

D,

Bert Colima trained my dad when he was fighting in the amateurs circa 1934.

[kikibalt]

Bert Colima

[kikibalt]

Bert Colima and Young Bert Colima aka Manuel Martinez

[kikibalt]

[Rick Farris]

D & rick, when're you two going to get together and co-write a story? I'll bet that it would be a gem.

Pal, I don't know how Rick feels,but I think we're bothing having the time of our lives. What would we do? Tell each other how and what to write? Frank,Pug,Scar,Bennie,et al,my stories are for you guys. I think Rick probably feels the same way. I don't paint or write unless I'm inspired to do so. When I see your old photos and read your comments,the creative juices start to flow.

Your spot on, Dagos! You are a great writer, and like you, I work alone. You know, these days I'm more interested in putting my work on screen, in the form of documentary films. Some people read, some don't, some can't and most won't. However, give 'em an excuse to fall back in front of a TV, and hear the dialogue right from the subjects lips, then nothing is left to debate. It is a much richer way of validating a story, as opposed to liberties that writers often take in their story telling.

I love to write, and I do & will, but I've no ego regarding writing a book. When I do, I already have it pretty much written, and it's about the era I know best in L.A. Boxing history. Little inside stories, that coincide with very big stories. Thank you, Frank. I know Dagos also appreciates your complimenting our stories, also. I learn from everybody here.


-Rick Farris

[dagosd2000]

I mentioned this before. I used to coach one of Joe Louis's adopted children on our high school football team in San Diego. I wasn't his position coach. John Louis was a defensive back and I coached the offensive linemen. I wanted to talk to him,maybe at length,about his father,but I never did. To tell you the truth, I don't even know how John Louis was on the team. Joe Louis had passed about five years earlier,and now his son was playing football for us.

John was kind of skinny,not a physical player,but a real over achiever. One thing though that John resembled was Joe Louis's humility. I saw Joe Louis once with my wife when he was a greeter in front of Caesar'a Palace. He's got on this cowboy hat, and tourists are getting their pictures taken with him. He's patient,smiling and willing. I watched him for a while before I stepped up to the stairs to say something to him. He was like a little kid. He didn't act like what he was doing was demeaning. He was happy to make people feel happy. After watching him for a while ,I made my approach.

My wife is shy around strangers. I think she's a little self conscious of her English. She didn't go to school because she had to take care of her nine brothers and sisters. Anything she wasn't familiar with she'd back away from. But I noticed my wife as we neared the Heavyweight Champ. My wife wouldn't go to a boxing match on a bet. I told her that this man was once the greatest fighter of his day. She looked at that Joe Louis's face. That natural,unpretentious Joe Louis face,and my wife,I could tell liked this man. This man she had never met before. I introduced my wife to Joe Louis.
"Very nice to meet you,"Joe said smiling.
"Sank yous",said my wife blushing up at him. Joe extended his hand very gently ,and held my wife's hand in his. The same hand that had struck with dynamite force on the chins of Baer,Conn,and Schmeling.
Joe turned and smiled at me, still gently holding my wife's hand.
"You have a very pretty wife." said Joe in a very straight honest voice. He said it not only to compliment her,but make me feel good too. I could tell he wanted to make a point by telling me that.
"Sank yous,"said my wife.
I wanted to ask him something. A boxing question. Why not?
"Champ, who's the best fighter today?"
"Why Muhammad Ali is a very fine fighter."
The same Ali that once thought Joe Louis was an Uncle Tom. And Joe thought Ali didn't represent all black people. Maybe there was no more animosity. I don't think Joe Louis was ever angry at Ali. Maybe it was Ali that had come around. Me and my wife thanked him for his time.

I felt that I had achieved something by asking Joe Louis a question. I started to walk away up the steps when I heard from behind Joe Louis.
"Who's your favorite fighter?" he asked. I'm thinking.Joe Louis wants to talk to me some more? Joe Louis wants my opinion?
"You still are Champ,"I said smiling at him.
Joe waved his hand.
"Win a lot of money."he said.

Me and the wife went inside the casino. I think we lost. We walked out after an hour or so and Joe Louis was not there.
"You win money?"asked my wife.
"No. How about you?"
"Me no win notheens," she responded.
"Well," I said. "I don't know about nothing."

I always wanted to tell John Louis that story about his father. I regret I never got around to it.