Enzo Calzaghe tonight......

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 23 Mar 2008, 09:05

chris s wrote:Fighters make the trainers.

That could be the title of a decent thread - decent arguments for and against.

fist · Post by **fist** » 23 Mar 2008, 09:07

dbf wrote:
chris s wrote:Fighters make the trainers.
I can't fully agree with this statement. Brendan Ingle for example, made plenty of fighters, and continues to do so.

Ingle excells in giving his boxers confidence as well. He pushes them to show indviduality, resulting in both conident and entertianing boxers. Excellent trainer.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Mar 2008, 09:17

In BM Adam Booth said Enzo Cal fighters back up too much after throwing jabs, leaving themselves off balance & vulnerable. Macca was being beaten to the punch, Haye's right hands were faster than Mac's lead hand FEINTS, and Mac pulled back in the corner and got nailed. 2 weeks later, Rees keeps on backing up in straight lines v Kotelnik, getting backed up, hands by his sides, and nailed with hurtful left hooks at least once a round.

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 23 Mar 2008, 10:02

fist wrote:
dbf wrote:
chris s wrote:Fighters make the trainers.
I can't fully agree with this statement. Brendan Ingle for example, made plenty of fighters, and continues to do so.
Ingle excells in giving his boxers confidence as well. He pushes them to show indviduality, resulting in both conident and entertianing boxers. Excellent trainer.

Ingle tutors his fighters from an early age and has a blank canvass to work with. Not every kid that walks into his gym will become a world class fighter even under his tutelage (which affirms chris s' point - you cant make a world class fighter the raw ingredients and natural talent has to be there to begin with). But undoubtedly Ingle appears to have a clear template for producing his boxers. Graham, Nelson, Hamed, Witter (with a bit of variation) epitomise this.

I dont want to get on Enzo C's case because he must be doing some things right, but conditioning isn't the be all and end all. At the level his fighters are boxing at there just has to be some tactical nous. Rees made some of the basic mistakes that you might expect of a novice last night against a solid but very average fighter at that level.

Al Savani · Post by **Al Savani** » 23 Mar 2008, 11:18

mrkh wrote:i always find it amazing when i think that chris eubank claims he trained himself.

He learned his 'outfighting' from a trainer called Andy Martinez and his 'infighting' from a trainer called Maximo Pierret,before making his style awkward with variations of Tai Chi moves. In his youth in the Bronx,New York. Ronnie Davies(who has coached Howard Eastman and Tony Oakey since) always tried training him,but Eubank always tried doing his own thing. I don't know how that r/ship worked. But certainly Chris won most of his fights on awkwardness and chin rather than boxing skill.

n1ebf · Post by **n1ebf** » 23 Mar 2008, 12:16

I thought Rees should've been pulled out for his own safety's sake on at least 3 occasions. More than once there was doubt whether Rees would see the end of the round - I thought they were maybe giving him chance to make it to his stool on his own steam before retiring him - and the fight was barely 3 quarters old.

Rees looked like a man without sufficient tools to do the job from the offset.Anyone with a passing knowledge of both fighters could have told you who was going to win.

It's no bad thing Rees lost as had he somehow KO'd Kotelnik (which was never likely) he would have earnt the right to get pasted off the next in line and one defeat like that's enough for anyone.

Great heart by Rees etc.. but when he beat M'baye in that, for me anyway, highly strange do-nothing all fight performance by a fighter who proved he was as good if not beter than Kotelnik - why then could Kotelnik batter Rees to a brutal stoppage whereas M'baye could do nothing of the sort (cue the thread getting locked).

When Rees won that impersonation of a boxing match against M'baye he effectively signed on the dotted line for a bad beating in the next fight.

I'm very surprised Enzo Calzaghe thought chasing a win that never looked within Rees' reach was more important than protecting him from a very bad beating.
I'm also surprised when I read the thread this morning noone else had suggested the same.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 23 Mar 2008, 14:26

NorthEastBoxingFan wrote:I'm very surprised Enzo Calzaghe thought chasing a win that never looked within Rees' reach was more important than protecting him from a very bad beating.

I'm also surprised when I read the thread this morning noone else had suggested the same.

North East,

I can understand why Rees was NOT pulled from the fight.

Firstly he was defending a world title and lets face it and be realistic without being disrespectful - he is not going to do that again.

Secondly - lets face it - Kotelnik is not a hard hittting and thus damaging fighter.

I can understand why Calzaghe kept his man in there - the fight was in Wales and if it went to the judges who knows - look at Woodhalls scorecard!!!

n1ebf · Post by **n1ebf** » 23 Mar 2008, 14:37

Spud wrote:
NorthEastBoxingFan wrote:I'm very surprised Enzo Calzaghe thought chasing a win that never looked within Rees' reach was more important than protecting him from a very bad beating.

I'm also surprised when I read the thread this morning noone else had suggested the same.
North East,

I can understand why Rees was NOT pulled from the fight.

Firstly he was defending a world title and lets face it and be realistic without being disrespectful - he is not going to do that again.

Secondly - lets face it - Kotelnik is not a hard hittting and thus damaging fighter.

I can understand why Calzaghe kept his man in there - the fight was in Wales and if it went to the judges who knows - look at Woodhalls scorecard!!!

so you are saying Rees' only chance of a win would've been by cheating judges......so from a fighting perspective you're compounding what I've just said, which is Rees unfortunately got a battering.

As for Woodhall I was disappointed last night and I've always been a Woodhall fan. He was in Setanta pockets big time. The commentator got a bit bold at one point and questioned Woodhall giving Rees the round when he got battered for the last minute off it - just cos Rees had thrown a few pitter patter clusters earlier!

At least if he'd been in with Witter it would've been over in no time - Kotelnik made it worse cos it lasted MUCH longer. You say he can't punch you wanna replay the finish.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 23 Mar 2008, 15:15

North East,

I thought you knew a lot about the sport - if you are getting bitter and twisted about dodgy decisions by the judges in boxing then where have you been sheltering yourself dear chap.

No matter what the promotional company - no matter where it is in the world - the night before it is traditional for the judges and the officials to be entertained by the promotional company at a swish restaurant - why on earth does that happen?

And lets just say - if Ree survived that last round and got a a bad decision - then the hype would have increased around him and a fight with Hatton, Witter or certainly Amir Khan and in turn would have earned him, his team and the promotional team a decent wedge.

Call me a cynic but thats boxing.

chris s · Post by **chris s** » 23 Mar 2008, 16:13

Spud wrote:
chris s wrote:Fighters make the trainers.
That could be the title of a decent thread - decent arguments for and against.

Take Oliver Harrison for example. He had been doing a decent job for about ten years as a trainer until Amir came along - suddenly people start saying what a top job he is doing after being ignored for a decade.

dbf · Post by **dbf** » 23 Mar 2008, 16:54

chris s wrote:
Spud wrote:
chris s wrote:Fighters make the trainers.
That could be the title of a decent thread - decent arguments for and against.
Take Oliver Harrison for example. He had been doing a decent job for about ten years as a trainer until Amir came along - suddenly people start saying what a top job he is doing after being ignored for a decade.

Fully agree with this.

A trainer only seems to get credit when a star pupil delivers, but a lot of the hard work and dedication shown to fighters of less natural talent is not commended.

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 23 Mar 2008, 17:42

I think a lot of opinion has much to do with fixed mindsets from a trainers’ point of view. It’s apparent to me that some boxers need to be trained differently based on where their at – there is no catch all situation. Different fighters need different things. What has been taught early doors and has made an amateur successful has to be built on – without breaking down or changing their whole style. Some boxers can be taught and others can’t and reach their level. The personality, character and mindset of a young boxer will reveal itself as he becomes successful and reluctantly forgoes the normal rites of passage afforded his pals. That may sound simplistic (and of course it is) but the motivations of a quality fighter in this country are a whole lot different to those born in for example Mexico.

n1ebf · Post by **n1ebf** » 23 Mar 2008, 18:42

Spud wrote:North East,

I thought you knew a lot about the sport - if you are getting bitter and twisted about dodgy decisions by the judges in boxing then where have you been sheltering yourself dear chap.

No matter what the promotional company - no matter where it is in the world - the night before it is traditional for the judges and the officials to be entertained by the promotional company at a swish restaurant - why on earth does that happen?

And lets just say - if Ree survived that last round and got a a bad decision - then the hype would have increased around him and a fight with Hatton, Witter or certainly Amir Khan and in turn would have earned him, his team and the promotional team a decent wedge.

Call me a cynic but thats boxing.

all I said was Rees should've been pulled out. I've weighed it up as well and I know where u are coming from. Essentially he is a happy go lucky type who likes a pint and a fight.

In an ideal world it would be pretty shitty to have to go and get a job in a factory in 5 years time or whatever. Specially if he can land one more big fight.

You are probably gonna try and bamboozle me with numbers now and tell me Rees is at least a couple hundred grand up and so would not need to make the long fall back to rubbish work for a living. That might well be the case.

All I'm saying is Rees got smashed up. He could have got very badly hurt, he has got hurt as it is. A few years ago that fight may have gone on 15 rounds had Kotelnik not found the shot. (did the ref really call a slip on that one?? FFS).

Rees should've been saved on more than one occasion and that's all there is to it, it's part of a trainer's job and I don't feel Enzo did his last night.

I will take your air of resignation on the matter as proof that you agree I'm right and naturally no hard feelings

........(I'll give it a couple of hours..............

)

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 23 Mar 2008, 20:33

Spud wrote:North East,

I thought you knew a lot about the sport - if you are getting bitter and twisted about dodgy decisions by the judges in boxing then where have you been sheltering yourself dear chap.

No matter what the promotional company - no matter where it is in the world - the night before it is traditional for the judges and the officials to be entertained by the promotional company at a swish restaurant - why on earth does that happen?

And lets just say - if Ree survived that last round and got a a bad decision - then the hype would have increased around him and a fight with Hatton, Witter or certainly Amir Khan and in turn would have earned him, his team and the promotional team a decent wedge.

Call me a cynic but thats boxing.

Interesting post, I thought Kotelnik was going to get jobbed. The commentators were biased in Rees favour and I thought 'hold on are the commentators in the promoter's pocket and if they are giving Rees rounds then maybe the judges are also in the promoter's pocket and we'll have a shitty hometown decision'

I was very suprised the judges had Kotelnik up, I had Kotelnik winning every round but I was expecting a robbery, is Mr W arren more ethical and less corrupt than his German counterparts?

BAMBI · Post by **BAMBI** » 23 Mar 2008, 23:12

Enzo was going hard at Gavin at thee nd of Rnd 9..i thought it was bit too much!

so Enzo is 2 nil down..1 to go..

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 23 Mar 2008, 23:47

Enzo is well overhyped.

tony3 · Post by **tony3** » 24 Mar 2008, 03:33

Enzo Calzaghe has been getting a lot of stick recently and his credibility has been severely questioned in the aftermath of these two losses so I'd like to make two points.

1. I could be wrong but, Enzo Maccarinelli and Gavin Rees have always struck me as upper tier domestic talent. Doesn't Calzaghe senior deserve some appreciation for giving the pair of them the confidence and fitness to be able to win world titles? Alright, they have both since lost but that's because they have been matched against good opposition and come up short. As someone else on here pointed out not so long back, EC's not a miracle worker and can only make the best of the material at his disposal.

2. In relative terms, the Newbridge Gym is still finding it's feet. As a stable it is a fledgling organization and as a result, it was always going to be a matter of time before they ran into 'teething problems'. Let's see how they adapt to adversity before writing them off just yet.

As I see it, the Calzaghe's have been good for British boxing of late and by matching their men properly, are giving an honest account to the fan of how good their fighters really are.

Isn't that what the game should be all about?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:23

Enzo Calzaghe has had some excellent success, obviously with Joe at world level and particularly Pryce at domestic/Commonwealth.

Perhaps as pointed out above, Rees and Enzo ended up totally out of their depth. Enzo destroyed by one of UK's once in a generation talents (difference between elite level and world class). Rees dismantled and outclassed by Kotelnik (basically an overachieving British lightweight schooled by an Olympic medallist and seasoned world class foe).

Anyway, there has been a lot of arse licking on Setanta, and if Enzo likes to take credit for brilliant results like Calzaghe-Lacy/Kessler and Pryce-Small then surely he can take flak for the bad results as well. Obviously the fighter has a lot to answer to but the trainer is free of responsibility?

Look at comments by Haye and Adam Booth. Haye said that Mac's career was built on false confidence. Here we have to bring up promoter Warren for charges! And Booth told BM about the basic mistakes that make Enzo Cal fighters vulnerable - pulling straight back after jabbing. So you have to look at the whole setup - fighter-promoter-trainer - and conclude that they are not as foolproof as pp think. It's hardly fair to say "he (Mac) did everythig he could to let Haye win," is it?

Also, on Setanta & ITV & through boxing, there is a tendency to say "ooh, look how much Enzo has improved X or Y" when they're beating up men who've been brought over to lose. Mac-Gunn and Lockett-Caramacy anyone?

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:16

Name me a trainer in the whole world who wouldn't what Enzo has had -

Domestic Champions
World Champions

And a fair amount of dough in the bank.

I think yeah criticise when it is needed but I honestly think Enzo has copped far too much stick on this and other forums.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:24

NorthEastBoxingFan wrote:I thought Rees should've been pulled out for his own safety's sake on at least 3 occasions. More than once there was doubt whether Rees would see the end of the round - I thought they were maybe giving him chance to make it to his stool on his own steam before retiring him - and the fight was barely 3 quarters old.

Rees looked like a man without sufficient tools to do the job from the offset.Anyone with a passing knowledge of both fighters could have told you who was going to win.

It's no bad thing Rees lost as had he somehow KO'd Kotelnik (which was never likely) he would have earnt the right to get pasted off the next in line and one defeat like that's enough for anyone.

Great heart by Rees etc.. but when he beat M'baye in that, for me anyway, highly strange do-nothing all fight performance by a fighter who proved he was as good if not beter than Kotelnik - why then could Kotelnik batter Rees to a brutal stoppage whereas M'baye could do nothing of the sort (cue the thread getting locked).

When Rees won that impersonation of a boxing match against M'baye he effectively signed on the dotted line for a bad beating in the next fight.

I'm very surprised Enzo Calzaghe thought chasing a win that never looked within Rees' reach was more important than protecting him from a very bad beating.
I'm also surprised when I read the thread this morning noone else had suggested the same.

No disrspect to rees, but I think MBaye was paid off.

That was the most fishy performance I have ever seen in a ring from a World Champion that we all know is a very good fighter.

It was a fix, in the opinion of some.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:46

I don't know. What about the irrepairble damage done to Mbaye's reputation?

I think Mbaye maybe has a questionable fighting spirit - he let Kotelnik and Vivian Harris outhustle him - despite bringing in a lot of speed and talent to these fights.

More likely Mbaye couldn't adjust to Rees' inferior size.