I just saw his record and it is a very impressive ledger. How can a guy that beat the great Willie Pep 3 out 4 times is not on the top 10 all time pound per pound?
This guy at least gotta be in the top 15 greatest fighters. How underrated this guy was?
He scored 15 straight KO wins in 1945 alone and had over 103 KO wins.
Sandy Saddler: How underrated is he?
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15683
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
Pep was quite severely depleted after the aircraft crash, & as a result Saddler's wins are diminished. They're deservedly A-level victories nonetheless, but even one defeat to the post-crash Pep (which people around here seem to under-estimate as a factor) is enough to convince me the fresher version would have gotten around Saddler.
I don't think he's undersold (at least not in the context of his division), so much as he is under-discussed. In an all-time pound-for-pound sense, he may be understated, yeah.
I don't think he's undersold (at least not in the context of his division), so much as he is under-discussed. In an all-time pound-for-pound sense, he may be understated, yeah.
What amazes me is a man that looks so innocent could be such a dirty, aggressive fighter.
No disputing his talents, but he was doing things that would have Andrew Golota taking notes on.
I have only seen splothces of his battles against Pep, people go on about Ward V Gatti with good reason, but what I have seen of these two is pure excitement and action.
Fortunately there is a bit up on YouTube about this man.
I am interested in knowing more about this great man after his fighthing career when he was a trainer etc.
No disputing his talents, but he was doing things that would have Andrew Golota taking notes on.
I have only seen splothces of his battles against Pep, people go on about Ward V Gatti with good reason, but what I have seen of these two is pure excitement and action.
Fortunately there is a bit up on YouTube about this man.
I am interested in knowing more about this great man after his fighthing career when he was a trainer etc.
Saddler knocked out Pep in three fights out of four.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
Re: Sandy Saddler: How underrated is he?
Saddler tells how he cut off the ring and kept tremendous pressure on Pep at every moment to beat him.elmersalsa wrote:I just saw his record and it is a very impressive ledger. How can a guy that beat the great Willie Pep 3 out 4 times is not on the top 10 all time pound per pound?
This guy at least gotta be in the top 15 greatest fighters. How underrated this guy was?
He scored 15 straight KO wins in 1945 alone and had over 103 KO wins.
Saddler was several inches taller than Pep and had much longer arms.
He had a method to beat Pep, and he used it unrelentingly with Pep until he got his opportunity to end the fights.
It is a pity there are no films of the first two fights.
Last edited by granberry on 23 Mar 2008, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
When Frazier retires in his corner, it is a travesty for I Feel Fine to say Ali knocked Frazier out, yet, when Pep retires in his, things are vastly different. Saddler, "Knocked Out" Pep, even if he retired in his corner.granberry wrote:Saddler knocked out Pep in three fights out of four.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
You are a fraud, a fool & a liar, & I do not wish to discuss Pep or Saddler with you. Try selling your product next door.
irene does her best to trash a thread on Sandy Saddler.Goodnight, Irene wrote:When Frazier retires in his corner, it is a travesty for I Feel Fine to say Ali knocked Frazier out, yet, when Pep retires in his, things are vastly different. Saddler, "Knocked Out" Pep, even if he retired in his corner.granberry wrote:Saddler knocked out Pep in three fights out of four.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
You are a fraud, a fool & a liar, & I do not wish to discuss Pep or Saddler with you. Try selling your product next door.
The amount of poisonous spite in these internet keyboards peckers is overflowing.
Saddler was a great, great fighter.
When internet pecker irene is nailed for posting tired talking points to diminish Saddler,
the only refuge irene can find is a hysterical, feminine response.
irene and her ilk work to turn anything they touch into trash.
It won't work here.
Saddler knocked Willie Pep out in three fights out of four.
Sandy Saddler knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
There is absolutely nothing hysterical irene can do to diminish that.
LOL
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
granberry, you know perfectly well that 2 of those "KO" victories over Pep are corner retirements.granberry wrote:Saddler knocked out Pep in three fights out of four.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
Exactly the same as Ali over Frazier in Manilla.
Great wins. Just like Ali's.
You quite rightly pointed out that Ali's great victory was a TKO and not a KO.
So why be such a hypocrite now?
A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF FIGHTER
When Sandy Saddler died last month in New York, he left us with memories of one of the greatest featherweights ever. NEIL ALLEN reflects on the momentous career of a uniquely talented boxer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy Saddler -
The unforgettable night in Kingston, Jamaica, when big George Foreman knocked Smokin’ Joe Frazier up in the air to win the world heavyweight title, became what the over excited locals called “jump up time” and any thoughts of getting yourself, plus press badge and notebook, through to the champion’s dressing-room seemed out of the question.
To my rescue came a pair of long black arms belonging to a skinny, moustached and becoming member of the victorious camp. Hugging me from behind into his protective, long, slim body we jog-trotted through the celebrating 35,000 crowd just ahead of a crackling Don King who had arrived with champion Frazier, but had now swiftly switched to his conqueror.
The arms that held me, that torrid Caribbean evening, belonged to Joe Benjamin “Sandy” Saddler and they had, a couple of decades earlier, helped him to the world 9st title and 144 professional victories of which no less than 103 had been accomplished before the final bell.
Now, Sandy has died, aged 75, and some of you, getting on ourselves, are wondering whether he will be acknowledged as one of the very greatest featherweight fighters of all time.
Maybe one of Saddler’s biggest handicaps in securing the right niche in the hall of fame is that he beat, three times out of four, an American sporting icon, Willie “Will of the Wisp” Pep. A second handicap, at least in the eyes of many of the Americans who used to watch fights half a century ago, was the style which was the natural outcome of his elongated, praying mantis physique. The final strike against him, or so Saddler and others believed, was his colour.
Way back in 1960, three years after Saddler was forced to retire because of failing sight exacerbated by an accident while riding in a taxi, I lunched in London with the celebrated American journalist Joe Liebling, as outstanding reporter on boxing as he was on war, politics, the press and good food. Liebling’s fistic themes that day, apart from the need for “the sweet science” to be taught properly to the young, was his interest in unusual, seemingly unorthodox technique.
Joe’s plump body shook all over as he recalled the New York trainer Freddie Brown wearily explaining to him the problem he was having in trying to teach the raw heavyweight Tommy “Hurricane Jackson”, not to jab with his palms uppermost, which he told us he was doing in case he changed his mind and wanted to uppercut. But Liebling proved to be most appreciative of the style of Saddler whose relentless aggression and powers of leverage he praised in a marvellous New Yorker essay, centred round Saddler’s world title defence against Red Top Davis in February 1955.
By then Saddler, who turned pro as a 17-year-old, back in 1944, had had 153 fights including the three victories over Pep (by count-out in four rounds in 1948, eight-rounds stoppage in 1950 and nine-rounds retirement in 1951) and the 15-round points loss to Willie in February 1949 when 19,097 spectators in Madison Square Garden saw the facially battered Pep take a unanimous verdict even after being shaken by a right hand in the 10th round.
Briefly seen film of Saddler’s series against Pep underlines the wrestling and rolling and back handing and tripping that was inevitable with Saddler having almost a five-inch advantage in height and much longer reach. But it wasn’t just slugger Sandy against fencer Willie — when Pep defended his world title back in June 1943, he hit hard enough to break Sal Bartelo’s jaw in three places. And Sandy could box smoothly enough to win 41 fights by decision apart from all his knockouts.
The label that has lasted on the final Saddler-Pep clash was that it was maybe the dirtiest of all fights in ring history. Certainly the hapless referee, Eddie Miller, does not seem to have been in control and the New York State Athletic Commission subsequently banned winner Saddler for 60 days and loser Pep for about 20 months. But roughest of all time?
Well, I remember an old Frenchman rolling his eyes as he told me about the enormities of Frank Klaus beating Billy Papke on a foul in Paris in their 1913 middleweight title brawl. And an American ringside veteran pressing the claim to utter grossness of the slaughter in Philadelphia in 1939 when Two Ton Tony Galento butted and gouged Lou Nova for nearly 14 rounds of such savagery that the ring stools, for a subsequent four rounder, had to be moved three feet inwards to keep clear of the most slippery part of the blood-stained canvas.
That said, it was a pleasant case of all forgiven if not forgotten when I talked with Sandy in Jamaica and Willie in London years after their jousting. Saddler, of whom George Forman once said: “I had him in my camp because he was one of the most cold-blooded fighters ever,” reminisced: “Willie Pep and I went a long ways back before we ever got to make so much money together.
“According to Willie it was because of a relationship, a help-out thing between his manager Lou Viscusi and my people, the Johnston brothers, that I ended up getting stopped for the only time in my whole career. Bill Johnston asked Lou to fix me up with my first pro opponent and they got me Earl Roys, the New England champ, and I beat him in eight. I was supposed to have a return with Roys but he couldn’t make it.
“But I’m on a train going to fight Roys, as I think, and I see this fighter Jock Leslie that I’ve heard about, ask him what he’s doing and he says he’s going to Hartford to fight someone called Saddler. I said: ‘No you ain’t, cos that’s me and I’m fighting Earl.’ But Leslie was right, I found out soon enough. Much too experienced for me, but thank the Lord he didn’t knock me cold, only a TKO in the third when they stopped the fight. And ol’ Willie’s manager just thought he was doing me a favour . . .”
Pep, born in 1922, four years earlier than Saddler, recalled “a tall, skinny kid we fixed up with his first fight but after he was stopped by Jock Leslie, guy I defended the title against in about ‘47, incidentally, we forgot all about this Saddler. Even when Sandy became my number one contender I remembered what had happened to him against Leslie, plus Sandy didn’t look too great in a New York main event. After 73 wins in a row I couldn’t imagine this kid was going to beat me. Certainly not by knocking me down twice and then stopping me in the fourth.”
“But being with Archie in the same Johnston camp for so long, I get the benefit of sound advice from the Old Mongoose. Plus he came into camp with me specially for the first Pep fight — making me move right, sparring with me, learning how to cover up, get in my shell like a tortoise, kinda. He warned me so often how clever and fast Pep was and never, ever give him any leverage, like maybe I did too much when we went the full 15 and Willie got the title back. Archie even improved my punching by keeping my back foot more on the ball of the foot, ready to roll.”
Moore, who was to have more than 230 fights between 1935 and 1963, stopping 165 opponents, rated Saddler as about the best featherweight he ever saw apart from triple world champ Henry Armstrong. But perfectionist that he was, Archie always believed that Saddler could have been an even more remarkable fighter.
“Sandy and I had a lot of time together and, like I helped him plan for Pep, he was there cheering me on the night I fought Rocky Marciano for the heavyweight title. But teaching the mystery of boxing can be a life long task. If I had had Sandy right from the start I would have changed his style considerably — making him hard to hit with more use of that fantastic long reach of his. I’ll always rate him as one of the greatest punchers I ever saw, but if we had worked on the defensive as well then we could have become the greatest boxer of them all.”
It did not even take good manners to refrain from bringing up with either Archie or Sandy the rumours in 1948 that the first fight with Pep was going to be a “fix” — rumours that apparently caused New York boxing commissioner Eddie Eagan to take the two fighters aside at the weigh-in and say: “I’m making you both responsible to uphold the good name of boxing.” A picture I have of the fourth round knockout of Pep shows him-crashing to the floor, right eye closed, nose bleeding. As Saddler recalled: “I knocked him stoned in that fourth round. Right out so that you could’ve counted 50, my friend.”
Mutual regard remained through the years. “The second fight,” said Pep “was the fight of our lives, for Sandy had height and reach on me and he came at me so hard. The fourth and last fight was a real brawl — don’t blame the referee, me and Sandy did it. He started it because he was the tough guy and I was the boxer but I admit I tripped Sandy up later on. Sandy was rough and tough, a great puncher but not basically a ‘dirty’ fighter. I got nothing but respect for the guy.”
Saddler’s case was: “When I got on top of Pep and started to punch he would grab my long arm and I would bang him with the other while I was trying to pull away. Was that dirty? Anyway, I never thought I got enough credit as a fighter overall like Willie did. We’re good friends now we retired but, like they say: ‘If you’re white, you’re right. If you’re black get back.’ In my time the black fighter had to work twice as hard to get the recognition and the public’s respect.
“Word hard” is right when I see just one almost forgotten fight report from Saddler’s extraordinary record — 17 March, 1952 at the Houston Gardens: “Sandy Saddler encountered plenty of trouble before he put Tommy Collins away in the fifth round. Saddler was dropped in the first round, was cut severely over his right eye and bled profusely from nose and mouth but came on like the proverbial champion to floor his plucky adversary in the fifth round and force the ref to stop the fight.”
Sitting in the Jamaican shade, Panama hat tilted over one eye, no wonder that Saddler, the unsung king of the feathers, felt it necessary to point out: “You know I always liked to box for the pleasure of it right from when I was a kid. Later I had pride in my work as a pro and a champion. But I paid my dues, man, I paid my dues.”
Neil Allen is the former boxing correspondent of The Times and then the Evening Standard of London, now reports for the New York Times.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN
When Sandy Saddler died last month in New York, he left us with memories of one of the greatest featherweights ever. NEIL ALLEN reflects on the momentous career of a uniquely talented boxer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy Saddler -
The unforgettable night in Kingston, Jamaica, when big George Foreman knocked Smokin’ Joe Frazier up in the air to win the world heavyweight title, became what the over excited locals called “jump up time” and any thoughts of getting yourself, plus press badge and notebook, through to the champion’s dressing-room seemed out of the question.
To my rescue came a pair of long black arms belonging to a skinny, moustached and becoming member of the victorious camp. Hugging me from behind into his protective, long, slim body we jog-trotted through the celebrating 35,000 crowd just ahead of a crackling Don King who had arrived with champion Frazier, but had now swiftly switched to his conqueror.
The arms that held me, that torrid Caribbean evening, belonged to Joe Benjamin “Sandy” Saddler and they had, a couple of decades earlier, helped him to the world 9st title and 144 professional victories of which no less than 103 had been accomplished before the final bell.
Now, Sandy has died, aged 75, and some of you, getting on ourselves, are wondering whether he will be acknowledged as one of the very greatest featherweight fighters of all time.
Maybe one of Saddler’s biggest handicaps in securing the right niche in the hall of fame is that he beat, three times out of four, an American sporting icon, Willie “Will of the Wisp” Pep. A second handicap, at least in the eyes of many of the Americans who used to watch fights half a century ago, was the style which was the natural outcome of his elongated, praying mantis physique. The final strike against him, or so Saddler and others believed, was his colour.
Way back in 1960, three years after Saddler was forced to retire because of failing sight exacerbated by an accident while riding in a taxi, I lunched in London with the celebrated American journalist Joe Liebling, as outstanding reporter on boxing as he was on war, politics, the press and good food. Liebling’s fistic themes that day, apart from the need for “the sweet science” to be taught properly to the young, was his interest in unusual, seemingly unorthodox technique.
Joe’s plump body shook all over as he recalled the New York trainer Freddie Brown wearily explaining to him the problem he was having in trying to teach the raw heavyweight Tommy “Hurricane Jackson”, not to jab with his palms uppermost, which he told us he was doing in case he changed his mind and wanted to uppercut. But Liebling proved to be most appreciative of the style of Saddler whose relentless aggression and powers of leverage he praised in a marvellous New Yorker essay, centred round Saddler’s world title defence against Red Top Davis in February 1955.
By then Saddler, who turned pro as a 17-year-old, back in 1944, had had 153 fights including the three victories over Pep (by count-out in four rounds in 1948, eight-rounds stoppage in 1950 and nine-rounds retirement in 1951) and the 15-round points loss to Willie in February 1949 when 19,097 spectators in Madison Square Garden saw the facially battered Pep take a unanimous verdict even after being shaken by a right hand in the 10th round.
Briefly seen film of Saddler’s series against Pep underlines the wrestling and rolling and back handing and tripping that was inevitable with Saddler having almost a five-inch advantage in height and much longer reach. But it wasn’t just slugger Sandy against fencer Willie — when Pep defended his world title back in June 1943, he hit hard enough to break Sal Bartelo’s jaw in three places. And Sandy could box smoothly enough to win 41 fights by decision apart from all his knockouts.
The label that has lasted on the final Saddler-Pep clash was that it was maybe the dirtiest of all fights in ring history. Certainly the hapless referee, Eddie Miller, does not seem to have been in control and the New York State Athletic Commission subsequently banned winner Saddler for 60 days and loser Pep for about 20 months. But roughest of all time?
Well, I remember an old Frenchman rolling his eyes as he told me about the enormities of Frank Klaus beating Billy Papke on a foul in Paris in their 1913 middleweight title brawl. And an American ringside veteran pressing the claim to utter grossness of the slaughter in Philadelphia in 1939 when Two Ton Tony Galento butted and gouged Lou Nova for nearly 14 rounds of such savagery that the ring stools, for a subsequent four rounder, had to be moved three feet inwards to keep clear of the most slippery part of the blood-stained canvas.
That said, it was a pleasant case of all forgiven if not forgotten when I talked with Sandy in Jamaica and Willie in London years after their jousting. Saddler, of whom George Forman once said: “I had him in my camp because he was one of the most cold-blooded fighters ever,” reminisced: “Willie Pep and I went a long ways back before we ever got to make so much money together.
“According to Willie it was because of a relationship, a help-out thing between his manager Lou Viscusi and my people, the Johnston brothers, that I ended up getting stopped for the only time in my whole career. Bill Johnston asked Lou to fix me up with my first pro opponent and they got me Earl Roys, the New England champ, and I beat him in eight. I was supposed to have a return with Roys but he couldn’t make it.
“But I’m on a train going to fight Roys, as I think, and I see this fighter Jock Leslie that I’ve heard about, ask him what he’s doing and he says he’s going to Hartford to fight someone called Saddler. I said: ‘No you ain’t, cos that’s me and I’m fighting Earl.’ But Leslie was right, I found out soon enough. Much too experienced for me, but thank the Lord he didn’t knock me cold, only a TKO in the third when they stopped the fight. And ol’ Willie’s manager just thought he was doing me a favour . . .”
Pep, born in 1922, four years earlier than Saddler, recalled “a tall, skinny kid we fixed up with his first fight but after he was stopped by Jock Leslie, guy I defended the title against in about ‘47, incidentally, we forgot all about this Saddler. Even when Sandy became my number one contender I remembered what had happened to him against Leslie, plus Sandy didn’t look too great in a New York main event. After 73 wins in a row I couldn’t imagine this kid was going to beat me. Certainly not by knocking me down twice and then stopping me in the fourth.”
“But being with Archie in the same Johnston camp for so long, I get the benefit of sound advice from the Old Mongoose. Plus he came into camp with me specially for the first Pep fight — making me move right, sparring with me, learning how to cover up, get in my shell like a tortoise, kinda. He warned me so often how clever and fast Pep was and never, ever give him any leverage, like maybe I did too much when we went the full 15 and Willie got the title back. Archie even improved my punching by keeping my back foot more on the ball of the foot, ready to roll.”
Moore, who was to have more than 230 fights between 1935 and 1963, stopping 165 opponents, rated Saddler as about the best featherweight he ever saw apart from triple world champ Henry Armstrong. But perfectionist that he was, Archie always believed that Saddler could have been an even more remarkable fighter.
“Sandy and I had a lot of time together and, like I helped him plan for Pep, he was there cheering me on the night I fought Rocky Marciano for the heavyweight title. But teaching the mystery of boxing can be a life long task. If I had had Sandy right from the start I would have changed his style considerably — making him hard to hit with more use of that fantastic long reach of his. I’ll always rate him as one of the greatest punchers I ever saw, but if we had worked on the defensive as well then we could have become the greatest boxer of them all.”
It did not even take good manners to refrain from bringing up with either Archie or Sandy the rumours in 1948 that the first fight with Pep was going to be a “fix” — rumours that apparently caused New York boxing commissioner Eddie Eagan to take the two fighters aside at the weigh-in and say: “I’m making you both responsible to uphold the good name of boxing.” A picture I have of the fourth round knockout of Pep shows him-crashing to the floor, right eye closed, nose bleeding. As Saddler recalled: “I knocked him stoned in that fourth round. Right out so that you could’ve counted 50, my friend.”
Mutual regard remained through the years. “The second fight,” said Pep “was the fight of our lives, for Sandy had height and reach on me and he came at me so hard. The fourth and last fight was a real brawl — don’t blame the referee, me and Sandy did it. He started it because he was the tough guy and I was the boxer but I admit I tripped Sandy up later on. Sandy was rough and tough, a great puncher but not basically a ‘dirty’ fighter. I got nothing but respect for the guy.”
Saddler’s case was: “When I got on top of Pep and started to punch he would grab my long arm and I would bang him with the other while I was trying to pull away. Was that dirty? Anyway, I never thought I got enough credit as a fighter overall like Willie did. We’re good friends now we retired but, like they say: ‘If you’re white, you’re right. If you’re black get back.’ In my time the black fighter had to work twice as hard to get the recognition and the public’s respect.
“Word hard” is right when I see just one almost forgotten fight report from Saddler’s extraordinary record — 17 March, 1952 at the Houston Gardens: “Sandy Saddler encountered plenty of trouble before he put Tommy Collins away in the fifth round. Saddler was dropped in the first round, was cut severely over his right eye and bled profusely from nose and mouth but came on like the proverbial champion to floor his plucky adversary in the fifth round and force the ref to stop the fight.”
Sitting in the Jamaican shade, Panama hat tilted over one eye, no wonder that Saddler, the unsung king of the feathers, felt it necessary to point out: “You know I always liked to box for the pleasure of it right from when I was a kid. Later I had pride in my work as a pro and a champion. But I paid my dues, man, I paid my dues.”
Neil Allen is the former boxing correspondent of The Times and then the Evening Standard of London, now reports for the New York Times.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN
Ali shill collins never misses an opportunity to shill for his Ali.Collins2000 wrote:granberry, you know perfectly well that 2 of those "KO" victories over Pep are corner retirements.granberry wrote:Saddler knocked out Pep in three fights out of four.
It is Pep who is "diminished" by those three KO losses.
After his accident, Pep had won 26 straight fights before he was knocked cold by Saddler in four rounds to lose his title.
The one fight of the four Pep won he was cut to pieces and barely made it to the end.
Before his accident Pep never faced a puncher like Saddler--a featherweight who knocked out THREE lightweight champions.
Saddler KO'd Pep three fights out of four.
And all the gibberish in the world from agenda-driven internet peckers can't change that.
Exactly the same as Ali over Frazier in Manilla.
Great wins. Just like Ali's.
You quite rightly pointed out that Ali's great victory was a TKO and not a KO.
So why be such a hypocrite now?
Even on a Sandy Saddler thread.
Pep quit so he wouldn't be knocked out. There were many rounds ahead in each fight. Pep had already been knocked down in each fight.
To compare Pep's quitting to avoid a certain KO to Frazier's treacherous cornerman Eddie Futch handing a "victory' to Ali with one round left is hypocrisy.
It turned out Ali could not have come out for the 15th round. He collapsed off his stool and lay on his back in the ring as he was handed his 'win.'
To equate that with Saddler's 2nd and 3rd wins over Pep is to demonstrate total ignorance of those fights.
-
Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
-
Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
That's total crap, granberry, my dear fellow.granberry wrote:It turned out Ali could not have come out for the 15th round. He collapsed off his stool and lay on his back in the ring as he was handed his 'win.'
We'll never know if Ali could have come out for the 15th as there was no 15th.
He fell off his stool, sure, but not until he knew he had won. If you think he collapsed before then you have never seen the fight.
Those are the FACTS.
I know FACTS aren't of much interest to you and your kind. But thankfully most other posters don't display your idiosyncrasies.
collins, I notice you circulate around boxrec working to trash threads.
Elmer started a much needed thread here on a great fighter who does not receive his due.
I have seen how collins follows elmer around boxing rec, trying to trash whatever interesting threads elmer starts.
collins and his fellow Ali shills will be unable to trash Sandy Saddler and this thread on him.
As Sandy Saddler said,
"Anyway, I never thought I got enough credit as a fighter overall like Willie did. We’re good friends now we retired but, like they say: ‘If you’re white, you’re right. If you’re black get back.’ In my time the black fighter had to work twice as hard to get the recognition and the public’s respect."
British writer NEIL ALLEN writes:
"Maybe one of Saddler’s biggest handicaps in securing the right niche in the hall of fame is that he beat, three times out of four, an American sporting icon, Willie “Will of the Wisp” Pep. A second handicap, at least in the eyes of many of the Americans who used to watch fights half a century ago, was the style which was the natural outcome of his elongated, praying mantis physique. The final strike against him, or so Saddler and others believed, was his colour. "
Elmer started a much needed thread here on a great fighter who does not receive his due.
I have seen how collins follows elmer around boxing rec, trying to trash whatever interesting threads elmer starts.
collins and his fellow Ali shills will be unable to trash Sandy Saddler and this thread on him.
As Sandy Saddler said,
"Anyway, I never thought I got enough credit as a fighter overall like Willie did. We’re good friends now we retired but, like they say: ‘If you’re white, you’re right. If you’re black get back.’ In my time the black fighter had to work twice as hard to get the recognition and the public’s respect."
British writer NEIL ALLEN writes:
"Maybe one of Saddler’s biggest handicaps in securing the right niche in the hall of fame is that he beat, three times out of four, an American sporting icon, Willie “Will of the Wisp” Pep. A second handicap, at least in the eyes of many of the Americans who used to watch fights half a century ago, was the style which was the natural outcome of his elongated, praying mantis physique. The final strike against him, or so Saddler and others believed, was his colour. "
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
granberry, you are such a sad little man.granberry wrote:collins, I notice you circulate around boxrec working to trash threads.
Elmer started a much needed thread here on a great fighter who does not receive his due.
I have seen how collins follows elmer around boxing rec, trying to trash whatever interesting threads elmer starts.
collins and his fellow Ali shills will be unable to trash Sandy Saddler and this thread on him.
As Sandy Saddler said,
"Anyway, I never thought I got enough credit as a fighter overall like Willie did. We’re good friends now we retired but, like they say: ‘If you’re white, you’re right. If you’re black get back.’ In my time the black fighter had to work twice as hard to get the recognition and the public’s respect."
British writer NEIL ALLEN writes:
"Maybe one of Saddler’s biggest handicaps in securing the right niche in the hall of fame is that he beat, three times out of four, an American sporting icon, Willie “Will of the Wisp” Pep. A second handicap, at least in the eyes of many of the Americans who used to watch fights half a century ago, was the style which was the natural outcome of his elongated, praying mantis physique. The final strike against him, or so Saddler and others believed, was his colour. "
No one is trashing Saddler.
Saddler = greatest 126 pounder of modern times.
You are the one doing boxing history a dis-service by distorting the truth. No, not distorting, just bullshitting. Again.
LOL
.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
granberry wrote:collins, I notice you circulate around boxrec working to trash threads.
Elmer started a much needed thread here on a great fighter who does not receive his due.
I have seen how collins follows elmer around boxing rec, trying to trash whatever interesting threads elmer starts.
"working to trash threads"?
I thought it was a discussion forum though I notice you and Elma never actually discuss anything. You merely repeat your opening post over and over and over and over and over and over again.
You aren't going to start calling out hysterically for a moderator again are you?
You funny little man.
LOL
.
THIS THREAD is a demonstration exhibit in how collins trashes boxrec threads.
First the pestilent collins sends in his stooge irene to post tired media talking points in an attempt to 'diminish' Sandy Saddler.
When stooge irene with his tired media talking points is NAILED at once for what he is attempting
the poisonous collins, with his fixation on Ali, shows up and attempts to poison this thread on Sandy Saddler with his Ali fixation.
collins' Ali is the most overhyped fighter in the history of boxing
while this thread was started by elmer to bring attention Sandy Saddler, a great fighter on the OPPOSITE side of the media spectrum---
a fighter who has been systematically cheated out of what is due to him in that regard.
At this point as collins, the feminine snake of boxrec, has been NAILED for awkwardly trying to turn this thread on Sandy Saddler into an Ali thread,
collins only resort is ad hominem attacks which have nothing to do with boxing--and nothing to do with Sandy Saddler.
Just as collins' stooge irene did earlier when he was NAILED in his attempt to trash this thread.
SICKO collins has failed here, as anyone going through this thread can't help seeing the valuable material here on Sandy Saddler, a great fighter who deserves his due.
Thank you elmer, for starting this thread.
First the pestilent collins sends in his stooge irene to post tired media talking points in an attempt to 'diminish' Sandy Saddler.
When stooge irene with his tired media talking points is NAILED at once for what he is attempting
the poisonous collins, with his fixation on Ali, shows up and attempts to poison this thread on Sandy Saddler with his Ali fixation.
collins' Ali is the most overhyped fighter in the history of boxing
while this thread was started by elmer to bring attention Sandy Saddler, a great fighter on the OPPOSITE side of the media spectrum---
a fighter who has been systematically cheated out of what is due to him in that regard.
At this point as collins, the feminine snake of boxrec, has been NAILED for awkwardly trying to turn this thread on Sandy Saddler into an Ali thread,
collins only resort is ad hominem attacks which have nothing to do with boxing--and nothing to do with Sandy Saddler.
Just as collins' stooge irene did earlier when he was NAILED in his attempt to trash this thread.
SICKO collins has failed here, as anyone going through this thread can't help seeing the valuable material here on Sandy Saddler, a great fighter who deserves his due.
Thank you elmer, for starting this thread.
-
Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
granberry wrote:THIS THREAD is a demonstration exhibit in how collins trashes boxrec threads.
First the pestilent collins sends in his stooge irene to post tired media talking points in an attempt to 'diminish' Sandy Saddler.
When stooge irene with his tired media talking points is NAILED at once for what he is attempting
the poisonous collins, with his fixation on Ali, shows up and attempts to poison this thread on Sandy Saddler with his Ali fixation.
collins' Ali is the most overhyped fighter in the history of boxing
while this thread was started by elmer to bring attention Sandy Saddler, a great fighter on the OPPOSITE side of the media spectrum---
a fighter who has been systematically cheated out of what is due to him in that regard.
At this point as collins, the feminine snake of boxrec, has been NAILED for awkwardly trying to turn this thread on Sandy Saddler into an Ali thread,
collins only resort is ad hominem attacks which have nothing to do with boxing--and nothing to do with Sandy Saddler.
Just as collins' stooge irene did earlier when he was NAILED in his attempt to trash this thread.
SICKO collins has failed here, as anyone going through this thread can't help seeing the valuable material here on Sandy Saddler, a great fighter who deserves his due.
Thank you elmer, for starting this thread.
This reads like a scene out of X-Men. Evil mutant overlord Collins sends in his fire-breathing henchman GI, who is swatted away --- sorry, NAILED --- by mutant hero, Granberry. Gran then saves the day in an epic final scene where he disposes of the vile Collins.
Then Gran wakes up, & the nurse changes his colostomy bag. Dare to dream...
Getting back on point, I'll keep to my word in that I do not wish to discuss Pep & Saddler with Gran, but I will re-iterate my initial point that Saddler probably isn't undersold within his weightclass, (I, for one, place him above & would expect him to beat Sanchez, who I cannot speak highly enough of), but in the all-time pound-for-pound stakes, Saddler may in fact be sold short.
Still, his victories over Pep will only ever be A-level wins, not A+. There ought be more focus on Saddler which does not center on his battles with Pep, in any case.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
You refuse to discuss anything in a reasonable manner, as usual.granberry wrote:THIS THREAD is a demonstration exhibit in how collins trashes boxrec threads.
First the pestilent collins sends in his stooge irene to post tired media talking points in an attempt to 'diminish' Sandy Saddler.
When stooge irene with his tired media talking points is NAILED at once for what he is attempting
the poisonous collins, with his fixation on Ali, shows up and attempts to poison this thread on Sandy Saddler with his Ali fixation.
collins' Ali is the most overhyped fighter in the history of boxing
while this thread was started by elmer to bring attention Sandy Saddler, a great fighter on the OPPOSITE side of the media spectrum---
a fighter who has been systematically cheated out of what is due to him in that regard.
At this point as collins, the feminine snake of boxrec, has been NAILED for awkwardly trying to turn this thread on Sandy Saddler into an Ali thread,
collins only resort is ad hominem attacks which have nothing to do with boxing--and nothing to do with Sandy Saddler.
Just as collins' stooge irene did earlier when he was NAILED in his attempt to trash this thread.
SICKO collins has failed here, as anyone going through this thread can't help seeing the valuable material here on Sandy Saddler, a great fighter who deserves his due.
Thank you elmer, for starting this thread.
In the past I spoke out AGAINST it when people wanted you banned for turning this forum into a joke.
I now admit I was wrong.
I've said this before.People always like to bring up Pep's plane wreck.Not saying it didn't affect him(I think he broke his back or something like that) but Christ,look at his record up to Saddler's thrashing of him.Pep was out 6-7 months up to his next fight,including training,that doesn't seem like a long time for back then.Again,I know Pep was seriously hurt but up to his meeting with Saddler you sure couldn't tell it,at least by his record.Saddler regularly KO'd lightweights.Not as eye popping a record as Pep but 3 out of 4 against the perceived best feather of all time seems pretty damn impressive to me.
Sandy Saddler
25 September 2001
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obitu ... 29442.html
Joseph (Sandy) Saddler, boxer: born Boston, Massachusetts 23 June 1926; world featherweight boxing champion 1948-49, 1950-57; world junior-lightweight champion 1949-51; married (two children); died New York 18 September 2001.
When Sandy Saddler stepped through the ropes in New York's Madison Square Garden on 29 February 1948 to challenge Willie Pep for the world featherweight championship, he was given little chance against a man widely believed to be the greatest defensive boxer of all time. While Saddler's record showed an impressive 86 wins from 93 fights, he was facing an opponent whose reputation was at its zenith, a boxing master whose outstanding statistics showed only one loss (by decision) and one draw in 137 bouts.
Saddler, however, was to prove himself undaunted by reputation; within 12 minutes he had brutally wrested the title from the champion's grasp, knocking Pep down in the third round, and knocking him out in the fourth. It was not only a remarkable victory for the underdog, but also the start of one of the most bitterly fought rivalries in boxing history.
The pair were matched again at the Garden on 11 February of the following year. After a hard-fought 15 rounds during which Saddler almost repeated his knockout feat in the 10th round, it was Pep who was declared the winner on points. Neither fighter, it must be noted, had demonstrated any obvious regard for the rules of boxing – heeling, thumbing, elbowing, butting, and tripping were all deployed in what would become a notorious feature of the Saddler-Pep contests.
In their third encounter, at the Yankee Stadium in New York on 8 September 1950, Saddler knocked Pep down for a count of nine in the third round but was generally considered to be behind on points when, at the end of round seven, Pep was suddenly forced to retire with a damaged shoulder. Their fourth meeting, at the Polo Grounds in New York on 26 September 1951, had an equally unsatisfactory conclusion when Pep was once again forced to quit, this time with a badly damaged eye after nine rounds of what Nat Fleischer, the editor of The Ring magazine, termed "a disgraceful brawl".
Both fighters received lengthy suspensions from the New York Athletic Commission. While Pep later attributed his losses to Saddler's ability to make him lose his temper in the ring, the fact was that, with his extra height and strong punching, Saddler simply had the style to beat Pep where so many others had failed – "I knew all the different moves that he had and I was ready. He was a show-off, and I knew everything that he had."
Sandy Saddler was born in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1926, the son of a West Indian immigrant and an American mother. His family moved to Harlem in New York in the late 1920s, where, as a lanky schoolboy, Saddler – then just plain Joseph – displayed a talent for basketball, though his preference was for boxing. At the age of 16, Saddler joined his local Police Athletic League, where his abilities as an amateur soon began attracting the attention of professional managers.
On 7 March 1944, shortly before his 18th birthday, Saddler travelled to Hartford, Connecticut, for his first paid bout, which he duly won in front of an audience that included none other than Hartford's most celebrated resident, Willie Pep. A fortnight later, Saddler returned for a rematch, only to find that his original opponent, Earl Roys, had been replaced by the more experienced Jock Leslie, who proceeded to inflict the only inside-the-distance defeat of Saddler's career when he forced a stoppage in the third round.
Managed by Charley Johnston (who was responsible for bestowing the name "Sandy" during a bizarre attempt to promote his charge as a fighting Scotsman, complete with kilt), Saddler was, at 5ft 8 1/2in, very tall for a featherweight, and his height combined with his powerful punching allowed him to compete successfully against heavier opponents. He also benefited from working with his stablemate, the light-heavyweight Archie Moore, whom he credited with helping him to beat Pep.
After losing his featherweight crown back to Pep in 1949, Saddler won the vacant world junior-lightweight title when he beat Orlando Zulueta on points in Cleveland. Although he defended the title successfully on two occasions, this was a lightly regarded championship that added little to Saddler's reputation or bank balance. In 1952, Saddler became the only reigning world champion to be inducted into the US Army during the Korean war.
On his return to the ring, he made a further two defences of his featherweight title, winning on points against Teddy "Red Top" Davis at Madison Square Garden on 25 February 1955, and stopping the Filipino Gabriel "Flash" Elorde in 13 rounds in San Francisco on 18 January 1956. Later that year, Saddler suffered an eye injury when a taxi in which he was travelling was involved in an accident, and in January 1957, aged 30, he was forced to announce his retirement as undefeated featherweight champion. His record showed 162 bouts, of which he had won 144 (103 by knockout or stoppage), lost 16, and drawn two.
Saddler remained involved with the sport he loved, working alongside Archie Moore to guide George Foreman to the world heavyweight title in 1973, and then as athletic director of the National Maritime Union. He continued to train amateur fighters at Gleason's gym until failing health took its toll in the 1990s.
As happened with other great fighters who dethroned legendary predecessors, Sandy Saddler did not always receive the credit that was his due, but as he aptly put it when speaking of his bruising battles with Pep: "Man, I hold three knockouts over him. If he is the greatest, then what am I?"
John Exshaw
25 September 2001
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obitu ... 29442.html
Joseph (Sandy) Saddler, boxer: born Boston, Massachusetts 23 June 1926; world featherweight boxing champion 1948-49, 1950-57; world junior-lightweight champion 1949-51; married (two children); died New York 18 September 2001.
When Sandy Saddler stepped through the ropes in New York's Madison Square Garden on 29 February 1948 to challenge Willie Pep for the world featherweight championship, he was given little chance against a man widely believed to be the greatest defensive boxer of all time. While Saddler's record showed an impressive 86 wins from 93 fights, he was facing an opponent whose reputation was at its zenith, a boxing master whose outstanding statistics showed only one loss (by decision) and one draw in 137 bouts.
Saddler, however, was to prove himself undaunted by reputation; within 12 minutes he had brutally wrested the title from the champion's grasp, knocking Pep down in the third round, and knocking him out in the fourth. It was not only a remarkable victory for the underdog, but also the start of one of the most bitterly fought rivalries in boxing history.
The pair were matched again at the Garden on 11 February of the following year. After a hard-fought 15 rounds during which Saddler almost repeated his knockout feat in the 10th round, it was Pep who was declared the winner on points. Neither fighter, it must be noted, had demonstrated any obvious regard for the rules of boxing – heeling, thumbing, elbowing, butting, and tripping were all deployed in what would become a notorious feature of the Saddler-Pep contests.
In their third encounter, at the Yankee Stadium in New York on 8 September 1950, Saddler knocked Pep down for a count of nine in the third round but was generally considered to be behind on points when, at the end of round seven, Pep was suddenly forced to retire with a damaged shoulder. Their fourth meeting, at the Polo Grounds in New York on 26 September 1951, had an equally unsatisfactory conclusion when Pep was once again forced to quit, this time with a badly damaged eye after nine rounds of what Nat Fleischer, the editor of The Ring magazine, termed "a disgraceful brawl".
Both fighters received lengthy suspensions from the New York Athletic Commission. While Pep later attributed his losses to Saddler's ability to make him lose his temper in the ring, the fact was that, with his extra height and strong punching, Saddler simply had the style to beat Pep where so many others had failed – "I knew all the different moves that he had and I was ready. He was a show-off, and I knew everything that he had."
Sandy Saddler was born in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1926, the son of a West Indian immigrant and an American mother. His family moved to Harlem in New York in the late 1920s, where, as a lanky schoolboy, Saddler – then just plain Joseph – displayed a talent for basketball, though his preference was for boxing. At the age of 16, Saddler joined his local Police Athletic League, where his abilities as an amateur soon began attracting the attention of professional managers.
On 7 March 1944, shortly before his 18th birthday, Saddler travelled to Hartford, Connecticut, for his first paid bout, which he duly won in front of an audience that included none other than Hartford's most celebrated resident, Willie Pep. A fortnight later, Saddler returned for a rematch, only to find that his original opponent, Earl Roys, had been replaced by the more experienced Jock Leslie, who proceeded to inflict the only inside-the-distance defeat of Saddler's career when he forced a stoppage in the third round.
Managed by Charley Johnston (who was responsible for bestowing the name "Sandy" during a bizarre attempt to promote his charge as a fighting Scotsman, complete with kilt), Saddler was, at 5ft 8 1/2in, very tall for a featherweight, and his height combined with his powerful punching allowed him to compete successfully against heavier opponents. He also benefited from working with his stablemate, the light-heavyweight Archie Moore, whom he credited with helping him to beat Pep.
After losing his featherweight crown back to Pep in 1949, Saddler won the vacant world junior-lightweight title when he beat Orlando Zulueta on points in Cleveland. Although he defended the title successfully on two occasions, this was a lightly regarded championship that added little to Saddler's reputation or bank balance. In 1952, Saddler became the only reigning world champion to be inducted into the US Army during the Korean war.
On his return to the ring, he made a further two defences of his featherweight title, winning on points against Teddy "Red Top" Davis at Madison Square Garden on 25 February 1955, and stopping the Filipino Gabriel "Flash" Elorde in 13 rounds in San Francisco on 18 January 1956. Later that year, Saddler suffered an eye injury when a taxi in which he was travelling was involved in an accident, and in January 1957, aged 30, he was forced to announce his retirement as undefeated featherweight champion. His record showed 162 bouts, of which he had won 144 (103 by knockout or stoppage), lost 16, and drawn two.
Saddler remained involved with the sport he loved, working alongside Archie Moore to guide George Foreman to the world heavyweight title in 1973, and then as athletic director of the National Maritime Union. He continued to train amateur fighters at Gleason's gym until failing health took its toll in the 1990s.
As happened with other great fighters who dethroned legendary predecessors, Sandy Saddler did not always receive the credit that was his due, but as he aptly put it when speaking of his bruising battles with Pep: "Man, I hold three knockouts over him. If he is the greatest, then what am I?"
John Exshaw