Rees/Kotelnik RBR

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Mar 2008, 15:58

I meant elite at 140-lbs specifically. i.e. one of the ugliest most unfashionable weight classes.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 24 Mar 2008, 05:01

HairyBoxe24 wrote:78-66 Kotelnik

Hairyboxe is the most generous scorer i have seen in a long time

Sorry if i am re-hashing a lot of previous material but i came to the thread late and 7 pages is too much to scroll through!

Thought Rees showed some bottle and conditioning to stick it out in there. He was taking flush head shots and his bodywork was good but Kotelnik was in shape, organised and very solid. A lot of Rees's flurries were missing or falling short from about round 5 and i was surprised he made to the 12th round but that finishing right was a sickener. Sensible rather than hometown refereeing from Luis Pabon, stopping it when needed.

Anyone know the scores at the time of stoppage?

sharpei_louis · Post by **sharpei_louis** » 24 Mar 2008, 05:38

Think Kotelnik is decent enough but any one of the top 140ers would beat him comfortably, in all his fights I've seen he takes far too long to get going - think Hatton and Witter would rock him in those first six, and Malignaggi would be too far ahead and get a UD.

Rees was awful IMO, can't see how anyone could give him much. Hate hearing about 'heart of a champion' - terrible defence, hands low, 'you didn't hurt me' head shaking bollocks which just proves he'd taken a shot. Kotelnik covered yp and Rees would dive in with a few camera body shots, most of which landed on elbows, and then keep hands low and get caught on the way out. Basics.

Fed up of Enzo Calzaghe too. Rees, although he did well to win the title, never looked a junior welter to me. He's tiny, overweight, and not got any speed of foot to take up either. He'd be pushing it at lightweight, and Khan would blow him away, even though I'm not convinced of Khan.

IMO Rees' overrating has given Kotelnik more credit than he deserves, despite being technically sound he was rocked by a Rees bodyshot, and if he punched anywhere near hard enough to be elite he's have had Rees stopped in no time.

sharpei_louis · Post by **sharpei_louis** » 24 Mar 2008, 05:43

To elaborate on my Enzo point - if I can see Rees isn't LWW, why can't he? His gym sounds a mess, no weights, poor quality of sparring as if they have the best fighters in the world there. Only JC is world class in that gym, and Enzo rides of the back of his success.

No plan B, and similar deficiencies to Maccarinelli in Rees. Like the Ingle gym but without any reflexes. If you can't school a tiny LWW to keep his hands up then wtf are you doing in there? With a big reach disadvantage against a straight punching eastern european he must have a tight guard, but that was nowhere in the corner. Could hear Enzo saying 'do you want to keep your title' etc - don't think Rees needed any more guts (it takes a lot to deliberately hang your chin out) but he could do with some decent schooling on defence.

Anyone think Enzo's other fighters have suffered because of JC's upcoming career definer, or is he just completely overrated and I've never noticed before?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:08

I think a case could already be made that Kotelnik already beat Witter. Some reporters had it for Kotelnik. I believe Boxing News had it level. Kotelnik seemed inexperienced at that time, on Witter turf (relatively) and he seemed intimidated by Witter's style. It could be argued that both are much better fighters now (or perhaps they just do not gel).

Now if he was 4-0 v Rees, Mbaye 1, Mbaye 2, and Witter everyone would rate him higher.

Starting slowly, being patient and methodical and then applying the pressure isn't necessarily bad. OK his lack of power lets him down a bit, but it's better than starting fast and burning yourself out, which one 140 "elite" has done 2 or 3 times despite having "the best engine in boxing".

Everton FC · Post by **Everton FC** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:10

sharpei_louis wrote:To elaborate on my Enzo point - if I can see Rees isn't LWW, why can't he? His gym sounds a mess, no weights, poor quality of sparring as if they have the best fighters in the world there. Only JC is world class in that gym, and Enzo rides of the back of his success.

No plan B, and similar deficiencies to Maccarinelli in Rees. Like the Ingle gym but without any reflexes. If you can't school a tiny LWW to keep his hands up then wtf are you doing in there? With a big reach disadvantage against a straight punching eastern european he must have a tight guard, but that was nowhere in the corner. Could hear Enzo saying 'do you want to keep your title' etc - don't think Rees needed any more guts (it takes a lot to deliberately hang your chin out) but he could do with some decent schooling on defence.

Anyone think Enzo's other fighters have suffered because of JC's upcoming career definer, or is he just completely overrated and I've never noticed before?

I agree with everything you've just said there..It's all happening cos of how good Joe Calzaghe is..I remember when everyone was raving on Billy Graham with Ricky Hatton..people forget these fighters are great fighters and would always have been great fighters without Enzo or Billy!!

I also think it's absolouteley ridiculos the way he makes himself more importsnt than the actual fighter sometimes!! He's being found out now it's as simple as that..First Maccrinelli then his light middle Kerry Hope get's knocked out off Matthew Hall and now Rees has just been hammered and schooled!!! I just think all Calzaghe fighters are far too easy to hit and try to concentrate too much on speed work..

glahn · Post by **glahn** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:18

Come on, give a little credit where it's due. Obviously Enzo isn't the perfect trainer or anything, but the scale of his achievements is incredible all things considered. He's played a big part in turning Pryce's and Lockett's careers around, he's developed Enzo into a solid and well-rounded world-level operator, helped mak Gavin Rees a world champion in a division he's far to small for. Okay, his fighters have suffered a couple of losses recently, but it's not like they lost to weak opposition. Haye and Kotelnik are bothe amongst the very best in their divisions and both had a size and skill advantage over Enzo's fighters.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:28

glahn wrote:Come on, give a little credit where it's due. Obviously Enzo isn't the perfect trainer or anything, but the scale of his achievements is incredible all things considered. He's played a big part in turning Pryce's and Lockett's careers around, he's developed Enzo into a solid and well-rounded world-level operator, helped mak Gavin Rees a world champion in a division he's far to small for. Okay, his fighters have suffered a couple of losses recently, but it's not like they lost to weak opposition. Haye and Kotelnik are bothe amongst the very best in their divisions and both had a size and skill advantage over Enzo's fighters.

let's make it clear though, Haye was only 203-lbs on the night - in Haye's words. He wasn't the 16 stone monster Buncey was telling everyone.

Everton FC · Post by **Everton FC** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:29

Enzo is naturally a biggerman than Haye and Rees should never have been fighting at LWW..Enzo should have told him NO from day one..I also still think Lockett is the exact same fighter he was when he went there to be honest...I think he has done a decent job with Bradley Pryce but I think it's only a metter of time till he get's a bad beating off someone!!

I can only think of Maccrinelli beating Braithwaite,Rees beating M'Baye and Pryce beating Small were they were hard fights for his fighters!! Im not gonna bring Joe Calzaghe into this cos he's on a whole new level..All the rest of his fighters get the easy route all the time..I think he touched lucky with Joe and is now being looked at closely by the media and is beng found out..

I think his corner work is terrible to be honest..Too much shouting and screaming and also far too much paniking..All he had to tell Rees was to tuck up and keep a tight guard and counter everything he throws and come out on angles!! Don't go back in straight lines and move your head!! Instead all he said is "Do you wanna keep this title or What"?? What kind of stupid question was that to ask??? Of course he wants to keep his title!! Tell him fornicating how...That's what he pays you for!!!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:32

I think Enzo Calzaghe was instrumental in making Joe what he is. Turning his raw talent into an eventual elite level operator. He is apparently a slave driver - from when Joe was a kid - and I think this is responsible for Joe's attitude to fighting high speed, high pace, pushing the opponent to their limits and beyond.

Lockett was lookig nice and compact last time but what can a fight with Camarac-y tell anyone?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:37

Why Is Maccarinelli suddenly not world level? Aren't you guys who are saying that tainting Haye's win.

He's not short or undersized for his weight like Rees Is and still Is a world class fighter.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:38

Lockett was lookig nice and compact last time but what can a fight with Camarac-y tell anyone?

Lockett says on one of the FW youtube Interviews that he has a sports science degree, maybe he could Enzo C a few things.

Everton FC · Post by **Everton FC** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:38

I think Joe Calzaghe is a product of himself it's as simple as that..He's the one who does all the hours of running ,training,sparring etc etc...The same I feel with Ricky Hatton and Billy Graham..There a product of great talent and hard work..

Everton FC · Post by **Everton FC** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:42

Max Molyneux wrote:Why Is Maccarinelli suddenly not world level? Aren't you guys who are saying that tainting Haye's win.

He's not short or undersized for his weight like Rees Is and still Is a world class fighter.

Im not saying Maccarinelli is not world class cos he is..I just think he was given a nice easy route to the title unlike D.Haye...As for Rees he's not a world class fighter by any means..M'Baye underestimated him and Kotelnik took him serious!! He should never have been fighting at LWW it's as simple as that to be honest..You can tell that just by looking at him!! I think Khan would stop Rees even quicker than Kotelnik!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 24 Mar 2008, 06:47

If Rees moves down a couple of classes I think he could do decent still.

He's ok with the jab and he needs to keep his hands up and he has good stamina and a chin.

glahn · Post by **glahn** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:13

Rees is like the anti-Paul Williams. At that height he could probably fight as low as super bantamweight, couldn't he? Madness.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:55

I fail to understand Rees' weight issues. He was clearly in good condition and shape to withstand those big shots and keeps flurrying himself. If they get him running so far, sparring so often and training so hard then why is he not a Featherweight or below?

Surely a good dietitian would get the pounds off him easily enough. Is he training and then just gorging on junk and booze all the time? With those wee man boobs and fleshy jelly baby appearance he could slim right down at 5'3.

Incidentally i noticed mid-fight Kotelnik crunched him with a solid bodyshot. Do you think the main reason he didn't attacked the body more often was because of the trouble with Rees' height? He did headhunt a lot and i can only imagine that crouching in and throwing to the torso was a difficult task!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:57

Apparently Rees walks around at 12 stone.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:59

steve689 wrote:I fail to understand Rees' weight issues. He was clearly in good condition and shape to withstand those big shots and keeps flurrying himself. If they get him running so far, sparring so often and training so hard then why is he not a Featherweight or below?

Surely a good dietitian would get the pounds off him easily enough. Is he training and then just gorging on junk and booze all the time? With those wee man boobs and fleshy jelly baby appearance he could slim right down at 5'3.

Incidentally i noticed mid-fight Kotelnik crunched him with a solid bodyshot. Do you think the main reason he didn't attacked the body more often was because of the trouble with Rees' height? He did headhunt a lot and i can only imagine that crouching in and throwing to the torso was a difficult task!

Its simple his diet is crapola, maybe he drinks too much and its more likely he doesn't want to put the effort into a good diet rather than it just being a case of him needing a dietician.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 24 Mar 2008, 12:25

Fair point. Fancy walking around at 12 stone and being 5'3!

Anyone else notice Rees nearly give the ref a dig on the nose when they were touching gloves for the final round?!

rhino222 · Post by **rhino222** » 24 Mar 2008, 16:39

Autobarn wrote:I think a case could already be made that Kotelnik already beat Witter. Some reporters had it for Kotelnik. I believe Boxing News had it level. Kotelnik seemed inexperienced at that time, on Witter turf (relatively) and he seemed intimidated by Witter's style. It could be argued that both are much better fighters now (or perhaps they just do not gel).

Now if he was 4-0 v Rees, Mbaye 1, Mbaye 2, and Witter everyone would rate him higher.

Starting slowly, being patient and methodical and then applying the pressure isn't necessarily bad. OK his lack of power lets him down a bit, but it's better than starting fast and burning yourself out, which one 140 "elite" has done 2 or 3 times despite having "the best engine in boxing".

i was ringside for the fight, the witter kotelnik fight, did kotelnik boll***s beat witter.......read my report. its factual.

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/uk/Rhino071005.htm

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 24 Mar 2008, 17:20

What did people think about Rawling and Woodhall's disagreement/discussion on scoring round 7? Woodhall was adament Rees has won it because he had won the first 2.30 of the round even though Kotelnik landed some huge shots in the final 30 seconds.

I agreed with Rawling. Even though Woodhall's observation that you can't win a round on 30 seconds work is correct, i don't believe Rees' work had been of a sufficient quality to put the round beyond doubt. He had flurried more, thrown more and busied himself but the round was still up for grabs. Kotelnik's thudding left hooks and right hands had Rees' noggin swimming around and as Rawling argued, it was enough quality work to win the round.

How did others see it?

rhino222 · Post by **rhino222** » 24 Mar 2008, 18:15

i tend to agree with ritchie, but its easy to norice how judges can get swayed. personally when i score a fight i divide the round into 3, then have a winner for each segment, therefore its unlikely i have opponents 'sharing' a round.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Mar 2008, 18:47

That's an interesting method, but dividing it into three is really arbitrary, you could just as easily divide it into 30 second segments.

I prefer to keep a running total with little dashes, ascribing one dash for a jab, maybe two for a big cracking shot, or a load for a flurry of shots which drill an opponent.

After counting them up I try and take into account who seemed most in control throughout the round.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Mar 2008, 08:04

I think that in defeat Rees' stock has risen somewhat with us Anoraks. Okay, he lost but I disagree with the view point that he was outclass. He was in the fight for large portions of it.

I think Rees at least showed he could be competitive at European level.... cause Kotelnik is established at that level and a consistent performer.

I do think though Rees needs to be at Lightweight at least... his lack of pop at 10 stone will always be a problem.

I think Lynes would have Kotelnik.