Self trained-coached fighters

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 15 Mar 2008, 21:45

I was wondering if there were any fighters of the past that have coached themselves whether from the outset or at any stage of there career.

I suppose it is unlikely as boxing has thousands of capable trainers at any time, but do you guys know of any who had.

Thank You

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Mar 2008, 22:21

I read somewhere that Nate Campbell 'taught himself to box' from TV.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 16 Mar 2008, 05:21

Thats pretty cool

thanks

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Mar 2008, 05:29

Marciano. For several of his amateur and early pro fights he basically trained himself along with his friend Columbo; Marciano, even then, had the mind set that since Joe Louis sparred 30 rounds in the gym in preperation for his fights, that due to his disadvantages in height and weight and reach, that he should do 60 rounds to even it up.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 16 Mar 2008, 05:41

HomicideHenry wrote:Marciano. For several of his amateur and early pro fights he basically trained himself along with his friend Columbo; Marciano, even then, had the mind set that since Joe Louis sparred 30 rounds in the gym in preperation for his fights, that due to his disadvantages in height and weight and reach, that he should do 60 rounds to even it up.

Hard to beat a man when he maintains that attitude

joe kurtz · Post by **joe kurtz** » 24 Mar 2008, 22:52

For some reason, the first guy that comes to mind who was self trained is a journeyman lightweight from the midwest who fought in the '70s - early '80s by the name of Johnny Copeland. He was one of those rugged, trial horse types.

He appeared on CBS one Saturday afternoon in his second fight against another tough journeyman in Larry Stanton on the undercard of a Howard Davis Jr. fight. They had a good scrap & before the fight they made a big deal about his self trained ways. Unfortunately, Stanton beat him again, this time by a KO5 rather the W10 of their first go round.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 25 Mar 2008, 14:47

I am not questioning what Joe heard, but when Johnny Copeland fought Carlos Ortiz in Oklahoma City back in August 1972, I met both his manager and trainer. At least, that's how they were introduced to me.

Maybe by the early 80s he was training himself, but not in the early 70s.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 25 Mar 2008, 15:05

A guy who did train himself for most of his career was my friend Kelly Burden, who fought Bob Foster for the light-heavyweight title in 1971.

Kelly started out his career with Gene Fullmer and fought throughout the Midwest in the 1960s under Marv Jensen.

When pro boxing returned to Oklahoma City in the late 60s, he resumed his career. Kelly, who had a master's degree in health from OSU, was the recreation director in Cushing, Oklahoma - about an 1 1/2 hour drive from Oklahoma City.

During the week as recreation director, he was constantly working out playing handball, basketball, running (when he couldn't sleep, he'd get up in the middle of the night and run), directing calisthenics classes, etc. He also did "traditional" training - punching the speed bag and jumping rope - on his own. On Sundays (and sometimes on Saturdays if nothing was going on in Cushing), he would drive down to Oklahoma City to get in his sparring.

I worked Kelly's corner for most of his fights in the 1970s, but I never really "trained" him. Nobody did. But he was always in tip-top shape.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 25 Mar 2008, 15:27

raylawpc wrote:A guy who did train himself for most of his career was my friend Kelly Burden, who fought Bob Foster for the light-heavyweight title in 1971.

Kelly started out his career with Gene Fullmer and fought throughout the Midwest in the 1960s under Marv Jensen.

When pro boxing returned to Oklahoma City in the late 60s, he resumed his career. Kelly, who had a master's degree in health from OSU, was the recreation director in Cushing, Oklahoma - about an 1 1/2 hour drive from Oklahoma City.

During the week as recreation director, he was constantly working out playing handball, basketball, running (when he couldn't sleep, he'd get up in the middle of the night and run), directing calisthenics classes, etc. He also did "traditional" training - punching the speed bag and jumping rope - on his own. On Sundays (and sometimes on Saturdays if nothing was going on in Cushing), he would drive down to Oklahoma City to get in his sparring.

I worked Kelly's corner for most of his fights in the 1970s, but I never really "trained" him. Nobody did. But he was always in tip-top shape.

Take a look at Kelly Burden's (Brian Kelly's) boxrec record.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

Is there anything you could add or comment on there?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 25 Mar 2008, 17:13

Nothing I can think of. He was best man at my wedding, but that's probably not the information you were looking for.

Do you have a specific question?

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 25 Mar 2008, 22:25

A lot of fighters in the amateurs enter as unattached novices but are fighting others with very basic skills.

As a matchmaker I often had fighters calling me who had no training or management and were looking for fights. 99 per cent never made it past the four or six rounder category and did not retire with winning records.

A good fighter once he has been trained and taught can train himself -not a smart move- but it can be done.

When George Foreman came back after his long hiatus, he basically trained himself for many of his comeback fights and would hire a corner for a specific fight. He hired Angelo Dundee several times for a flat fee and Angelo would go with him the last couple of weeks and work the corner.

Generally a figter needs a trainer who can spot mistakes, correct him, work on condition and strategy. Not doing so is foolish.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 25 Mar 2008, 22:31

Thanks for that. I ask this because in my sport I am self coached, I always have been, I also however coach others.

I was cuirous to know if many or any in boxing had followed this path, especially at the elite levels.

I suppose at that late age Foreman knew what needed to be done and had a pretty good idea of what he could and could not do. I was always curious as to know about the Dundee connection.

I always thought Archie Moore and Saddler were such good trainers for big George.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 25 Mar 2008, 22:32

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 25 Mar 2008, 22:35

Do you think it sometimes closes doors for some of these guys beacuse they do not have a solid name if any in there corner, or because they are flying solo they are less connected ?

I suppose the same can be said for self managed fighters,

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 26 Mar 2008, 08:18

The trainer can see what the fighter does not. You can correct flaws shadow boxing in front of a mirror but overall condition, strategy etc. needs a trainer.

An auto racer needs a mechanic and a pit crew.

Likewise a fighter needs a manager because of contacts in the boxing world, getting the right fights etc.

Archie Moore trained himself often but also hired various trainers over the years to help him out...

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 26 Mar 2008, 10:23

enrique wrote:The trainer can see what the fighter does not. You can correct flaws shadow boxing in front of a mirror but overall condition, strategy etc. needs a trainer.

I'm not even sure one can be entirely successful looking for one's own bad habits shadow boxing before a mirror. I recall developing a bad habit with my head position. I never noticed it even shadowboxing in front of the mirror until another trainer pointed it out to me.

Like you, I think a good trainer is absolutely essential for success. But I think the relationship between trainer and boxer moves from "teacher-student" to that between colleagues working together, such as Foreman and Dundee in Foreman's second career.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Mar 2008, 16:14

Robinson wrote: I always thought Archie Moore and Saddler were such good trainers for big George.

Yeah, they got him in great shape for the Ali-Foreman fight.

.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 26 Mar 2008, 16:22

That is probably true. A veteran fighter isn't going to need as much advice as a younger fighter. However, it always helps to have another person's view if they are knowledgeable.

It's essential to have a good trainer if you are going to make it to the top. There are some guys would be able to get in great shape without a trainer.

However, it takes a lot more than being in great shape to go far.
A lot of guys that are great physical shape don't have the boxing fundamentals and therefore don't make it that far at all.

A good trainer is going to help with the "X's and O's" so to speak. A good trainer can tell from experience what will and won't work for their fighter; as well as know what tactics will be the most effective against a certain styles of opponent that their fighter is up against next.

The phsychological component shouldn't be overlooked either. A fighter that is overconfident needs to be taken down a peg, a fighter that doesn't have enough confidence needs to be encouraged. A fighter that is lackisdasical needs to be motivated, and a nervous fighter needs to be calmed down. Most fighters go through all of these emotions at different times throughout their career.

The trainer can also be very helpful to the manager regarding which (and how many) fights to take. It's important for a fighter coming up to fight fights that they can win, while not taking on only taking on creampuffs. It also helps for a young fighter to take on different styles of opponents.
It's important for older fighters to stay busy enough; without fighting too many tough fights that shorten their career.