Doug Jones

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 30 Mar 2008, 01:48

The full Jnes-Ali fight has been put up on YouTube in four parts.

I guess now we all can watch and make our minds up

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:27

Quit repeating that retarded line you got from Bert Sugar about how Robinson was the only fighter who could hurt an opponent moving backwards. Ali hurt plenty of fighters moving back; didn't you see the Foreman fight?

fornicate Bert Sugar, I am quoting JOE LOUIS, who did in fact say that during commentary of the 1967 NCR tournaments, when he was asked his opinion on Ali, saying that Ali didn't have "nothing" in terms of punching power as well as the Robinson statement, saying that he fought a bit like Sugar Ray, but lacked the power that Robinson had.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:32

Good, you ripped it off from Louis intead, passing it off as your own idea. Just as good.

Joe Louis never KO'd anyone as good as Foreman, going backwards or forwards.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:44

I never passed it off as my own statement ffs. Maybe instead of losing weight, like some have suggested to me, and take on Charlie Zelenoff, maybe I can put my federal ID and all to use and take your loud mouth fat ass on...hmm?

As far as Joe Louis never beating anyone as good as Foreman, that's ridiculous. Max Schmeling was a far superior technician than Foreman, Billy Conn was one of the top five Light Heavyweights in history (hey and lets not forget John Henry Lewis) and hell lets not forget Joe Walcott either, whose skills and style was the basis for Angello Dundee training of Muhammad Ali. Throw in Carnera, Baer, Sharkey and some others...god damn Louis has fought more HOF fighters than George Foreman ever done.

Anyways, hows this for a hypothetical to put your mind to use: Foreman vs Louis, and give me reasons as to WHY Foreman would beat Joe Louis, cus outside of a punchers chance, I dont see the wild swinging, sloppy, poor conditioned, younger version of George having much a chance against possibly THE greatest heavyweight fighter from the waist up there ever was.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:50

A Louis vs Foreman fight would be ingeresting while it lasted, though I just can not imagine Foreman lasting 15 rounds. I think it would be damned close, but I dunno. I see Louis winning on a TKO.

Though there is no doubt that Foreman has the power to rock and rumble Louis as well as the reach to cause concern at times.

I think Louis is able to land more often from the 5th onwards. Louis is droped but comes back to win around the 11th.

I like them both though.

I think Doug Jones loses to both guys however ;)

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:57

For me personally, I see Foreman knocking down Louis early, and therein lies his mistake...everytime an opponent remotely came close to knocking Louis down or hurting him, the Brown Bomber came back with bad intentions and was seemingly better when enraged than when he was when calm...Galento knocked him down, but would be thoroughly beaten; Buddy Baer in the rematch was blown away in one round when the first fight went seven; can we go on?

I see the fight lasting maybe 6 or 8 rounds, but Louis gets to him with his faster, more accurate, lethal combinations, and drops the big man repeatedly before it gets called off on a technical knockout.

Watch Schmeling-Louis 2, and tell me if the BEST Joe Louis of that night, wouldn't stand a chance against Foreman.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 31 Mar 2008, 02:03

I think Louis struggles early with Foremans power and slight reach, the jab and those rights dropping down hurt and like you said drop Louis.

BUT I think Foreman slows and Louis is able to get his shots of more often and ith such excellent accuracy. Seven or eight rounds is a fair call...Im thinking it takes longer than that. BUT I dont think that should anyone KD Louis then that is his motivator. I think that in a rematch he is murderous and well prepared.

Ok then who does Doug Jones do better agianst ? Foreman or Louis...

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Mar 2008, 02:22

Jones against Foreman or Louis...I would think that Jones would probably do better with Louis than he would a Foreman, simply because, take a look at the Conn fights, or Louis's fights against Walcott, though he was older...I think Jones has the style and the speed, to off set Louis enough to survive the distance; but I cant say that he would win...everytime I see those Louis high light reels, knockout after knock out, I could just see Jones getting shook up, or knocked out after Louis lands that jack hammer jab that sets up that right left, right left, right left combination. I see Louis either winning a decision or a late knockout.

Now against Foreman, I think there's a good chance he might last longer than one would expect, if not go the distance; but I just cant get over the size differentials, and I dont believe Jones ever faced anyone nearly with the power that Foreman possessed, so who am I to really guess how he would have handled that? But I do see Foreman having problems with him, but if it does go the distance, I think Foreman wins it; cus Jones, to me, reminds me and dont ask me as to really quite why, of another fighter by the name of Peralta, who went the distance with Foreman twice before George won the title.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 31 Mar 2008, 02:41

HomicideHenry wrote:There has been only ONE fighter I have ever seen who could...

Yeah, you're definitely not presenting it as your own idea.

Schmeling got knocked out by Max Baer, but he's going to survive Foreman? Conn, as a Heavyweight, is better than Foreman? Did you honestly just compare Foreman to Primo Carnera? Do you even know what sport we're talking about?

Ali beat as many Hall of Fame Heavyweight champions as Louis did. But Ali was beating Liston and Frazier and Foreman, Louis was beating Baer and Sharkey and Braddock... night and day.

Foreman against a 32 year old Louis? Eh, tough night for Joe, even if he wins. George hit a little harder than Buddy Baer. Wild swinging, sloppy, poor conditioning... sounds like Galento. What if it was George instead of someone shorter and just as fat as James Toney? What if it was George catching Louis cold in in the first with a right hand, instead of Braddock? Louis got dropped by a lot of rights, he didn't face a puncher with Foreman's right handed power, or someone who was as good a finisher as George, or who was as physically strong as George. George wouldn't let him off the hook. Louis said himself after the Marciano fight that he never liked fighters who crowded him, and George would be on him.

Even if he wins, and I might call it a toss up, a 32 year old Louis does not have an easy time, certainly not as easy a time as Ali did. Ali made Foreman look stupid, Louis, especially at age 32, wouldn't make quite the same impression on George. Louis certainly never beat anyone as good as Foreman, which was the underlining point. We don't know how Louis would do against someone of that caliber, rather than some questionable Hall of Famer or some overweight bum or some Light Heavyweight who still almost beats him. Walcott was a competent opponent, but he rarely got up when a puncher hit him. You can say that for most of Louis' prominent opponents. A 32 year old Louis might not be able to pull out a Hail Mary against Big George as he did against Walcott. George had a better chin.

An internet challenge? Haven't you had enough, Big Show?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 31 Mar 2008, 09:55

Jones-Clay scorecards anyone???

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 11:10

The Ali "fans" studiously avoid mentioning, confronting, facing the fact that

Joe Frazier BEAT Ali.

Ali "fans" twist "history" to suit their AGENDA.

It doesn't work.

LOL

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Mar 2008, 12:49

dempseyfire wrote:Jones-Clay scorecards anyone???

I gave rounds 1,6, and 7 to Jones. The guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman won the rest of the rounds, therefore winning 7 rounds to 3.
Round 8 was close; even if you give it to Jones, he still loses 6 rounds to 4.

ESPN Classic showed this a couple of times, but I guess some people don't have access to that or just missed it. Anyway I'm glad that this is on Youtube now. Thanks for posting the link, dempseyfire.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 13:40

Ambling Alp wrote:The guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman

The guy who lost to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, LEON SPINKS [LOL], Jimmy Young, Doug Jones and needed extra time between rounds against 185 pound Henry Cooper?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Mar 2008, 14:36

Ezzard wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Well I guess technically any fight can be scored either way. Technically you could score you could score Cobb-Holmes either way.

However if you are going to actually score each individual round objectively, then it can't be scored for Jones. If you give Jones the close rounds, you still can only give him 4 rounds, which is what 2 judges did. If you give the guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier and Foreman all of the the close rounds, than it's pretty lospsided.

Many fights can be competitive and still leave no doubt who was the winner. This was the case here. Jones fought a very good fight and would have almost won against a different opponent. However, it wasn't enough and he lost.

there are enough voices here who think Jones won. I haven't seen the fight for over 10 years when a friend of mine showed it me on his uncle's projector. I don't join the debate that Ali won or Jones won because I simply cannot remember. When opinion differs on a fight like this then it's really up for grabs.

You think Ali won fair and square with no doubts. That's up to you, but that means anyone with a different view has an agenda, doesn't it? I don't think Terry D is anti-Ali and I'm certainly not. but let's pretend my point is that Cobb should have got the decision against Holmes??? That's a poor device for trying to cut off any debate. Why would you want to keep a ceiling on discussing boxing on an internet forum? the whole point is to encounter different viewpoints. Hopefully this will help you defend your argument or consider other view points. If you don't want to do that then what's the point?

The fight is talked about because many people think it was close. That's it. There's nothing more to it than that.

My point about Cobb-Holmes is that techinically you could say any fight could be scored either way. That doesn't mean that there is any justification in doing so.

Obviously the Jones fight was much more competitive.
However, just because a fight is competitive, doesn't mean that it isn't conclusive. The Jones fight was conclusive. If you give Jones the benefit of the doubt, you still can't legitimately come up with enough rounds for him. Therefore, you can't legitimately "call it either way".
Why do I want to cut off this debate? Because it's a stupid debate.
He wasn't in prime yet, and the decision was just. If it was almost anyone else we would even be mentioning it.
btw, the link of the fight is on youtube, haven't seen you post your scorecard.

The only reason we talking about this because of the hatred so many people have for Jones' opponent.
How often do we talk about Ted Lowry? How many people have even heard of him?
How about Joe Louis fight with Tommy Farr? Why don't we mention that every single day on this forum.

The guy who beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman had many more important fights than this that rarely get mentioned.

Any thread that mentions any of his opponents almost immediately turns into the usual BS from the usual suspects. I ask again, why aren't we talking about some of Jones' other fights, like this thread was meant to be? He fought 4 other Hall of Famers, and had several other interesting fights as well. However, for the umpteenth time, the focus has to be on bashing one guy who supposedly got all the breaks.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Mar 2008, 14:38

Ambling Alp wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Well I guess technically any fight can be scored either way. Technically you could score you could score Cobb-Holmes either way.

However if you are going to actually score each individual round objectively, then it can't be scored for Jones. If you give Jones the close rounds, you still can only give him 4 rounds, which is what 2 judges did. If you give the guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier and Foreman all of the the close rounds, than it's pretty lospsided.

Many fights can be competitive and still leave no doubt who was the winner. This was the case here. Jones fought a very good fight and would have almost won against a different opponent. However, it wasn't enough and he lost.

there are enough voices here who think Jones won. I haven't seen the fight for over 10 years when a friend of mine showed it me on his uncle's projector. I don't join the debate that Ali won or Jones won because I simply cannot remember. When opinion differs on a fight like this then it's really up for grabs.

You think Ali won fair and square with no doubts. That's up to you, but that means anyone with a different view has an agenda, doesn't it? I don't think Terry D is anti-Ali and I'm certainly not. but let's pretend my point is that Cobb should have got the decision against Holmes??? That's a poor device for trying to cut off any debate. Why would you want to keep a ceiling on discussing boxing on an internet forum? the whole point is to encounter different viewpoints. Hopefully this will help you defend your argument or consider other view points. If you don't want to do that then what's the point?

The fight is talked about because many people think it was close. That's it. There's nothing more to it than that.
My point about Cobb-Holmes is that techinically you could say any fight could be scored either way. That doesn't mean that there is any justification in doing so.

Obviously the Jones fight was much more competitive.
However, just because a fight is competitive, doesn't mean that it isn't conclusive. The Jones fight was conclusive. If you give Jones the benefit of the doubt, you still can't legitimately come up with enough rounds for him. Therefore, you can't legitimately "call it either way".
Why do I want to cut off this debate? Because it's a stupid debate.
He wasn't in prime yet, and the decision was just. If it was almost anyone else we would even be mentioning it.
btw, the link of the fight is on youtube, haven't seen you post your scorecard.

The only reason we talking about this because of the hatred so many people have for Jones' opponent.
How often do we talk about Ted Lowry? How many people have even heard of him?
How about Joe Louis fight with Tommy Farr? Why don't we mention that every single day on this forum?
How about Larry Holmes doing almost nothing for 15 rounds and getting the decision against Carl Williams. Why isn't that mentioned constantly?

The guy who beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman had many more important fights than this that rarely get mentioned.

Any thread that mentions any of his opponents almost immediately turns into the usual BS from the usual suspects. I ask again, why aren't we talking about some of Jones' other fights, like this thread was meant to be? He fought 4 other Hall of Famers, and had several other interesting fights as well. However, for the umpteenth time, the focus has to be on bashing one guy who supposedly got all the breaks.

Woller · Post by **Woller** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:18

No we are not talking of "The hatred that many people have for Jones opponent".
We are talking of one sick in mind person who is ruining this forum for boxing fans.
I was never fond of Ali, but please he beat Doug Jones and Jimmy Young by a mile.

Woller

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:22

granberry wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:The guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman
The guy who lost to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, LEON SPINKS [LOL], Jimmy Young, Doug Jones and needed extra time between rounds against 185 pound Henry Cooper?

How much extra time do you think he got between rounds, Granberry?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:24

raylawpc wrote:
granberry wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:The guy that beat Patterson, Liston,Frazier, and Foreman
The guy who lost to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, LEON SPINKS [LOL], Jimmy Young, Doug Jones and needed extra time between rounds against 185 pound Henry Cooper?
How much extra time do you think he got between rounds, Granberry?

Way I heard it is that they stopped the fight, sent everyone home and got an early start the next day.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:01

HomicideHenry wrote:I never passed it off as my own statement ffs. Maybe instead of losing weight, like some have suggested to me, and take on Charlie Zelenoff, maybe I can put my federal ID and all to use and take your loud mouth fat ass on...hmm?

Tosser.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 31 Mar 2008, 20:41

granberry wrote:Ali won the trilogy, I know, I just have nothing else to cling to...

I Feel Fine wrote:Even if he wins, and I might call it a toss up, a 32 year old Louis...

I actually take this back. Louis at 32 versus prime Foreman? Foreman is definitely the favorite. In Louis' prime I would call Louis a slight favorite, though he doesn't win as easily as Ali did, if he wins at all.

Where did HH go? He has a tendency to run away from these discussions.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 22:46

I Feel Fine wrote:
I falsify by posting "quotes" from others that they never wrote.

In the real world I would get my pants sued off and my yellowing teeth kicked in,

but here on boxrec I can falsify in that fashion

as long as the moderators let me.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 31 Mar 2008, 23:02

I Feel Fine wrote:
granberry wrote:Ali won the trilogy, I know, I just have nothing else to cling to...

I Feel Fine wrote:Even if he wins, and I might call it a toss up, a 32 year old Louis...
I actually take this back. Louis at 32 versus prime Foreman? Foreman is definitely the favorite. In Louis' prime I would call Louis a slight favorite, though he doesn't win as easily as Ali did, if he wins at all.

Where did HH go? He has a tendency to run away from these discussions.

To be fair, if Ali, at thirty-two, never fights Foreman, Foreman is definitely the favourite, & you are objective enough IFF, that I suspect you might be conceding Foreman would have won, had they met.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 23:06

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:
granberry wrote:Ali won the trilogy, I know, I just have nothing else to cling to...

I Feel Fine wrote:Even if he wins, and I might call it a toss up, a 32 year old Louis...
I actually take this back. Louis at 32 versus prime Foreman? Foreman is definitely the favorite. In Louis' prime I would call Louis a slight favorite, though he doesn't win as easily as Ali did, if he wins at all.

Where did HH go? He has a tendency to run away from these discussions.
To be fair, if Ali, at thirty-two, never fights Foreman, Foreman is definitely the favourite, & you are objective enough IFF, that I suspect you might be conceding Foreman would have won, had they met.

irene,

you are posting ifeelfine's post where he made up a quote and falsely posted it as if I wrote something I never did.

Are you and your contingent now reducing boxrec to your level of filth on that level?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 31 Mar 2008, 23:09

I was addressing his point on Louis-Foreman.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 23:11

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I was addressing his point on Louis-Foreman.

What you were doing, irene,

was reposting his post where he made up a quote and posted it as if I posted something I never did.

That is the level of filth you and your contingent have reduced boxrec to.