GRANBERRY: You are right again!!!

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Mar 2008, 13:44

raylawpc wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Elmer there is room for disagreement. Close fights...not robberies is what many see. Like I say Joe Frazier saw Norton winning the third fight by a single round.
Norton won all the fights with Ali....The judges saw the $$$$$$$$
Irrefutable facts:

3/31/1973 Ken Norton d. Muhammad Ali split dec. 12
Referee Frank Rustich 7-4; Judge Hal Rickard 5-4; Judge Fred Hayes 5-6.

9/10/1973 Muhammad Ali d. Ken Norton split dec. 12
Referee Dick Young 7-5; Judge John Thomas 6-5; Judge George Latka 5-6.

9/28/1976 Muhammad Ali d. Ken Norton unan dec. 15
Referee Arthur Mercante 8-6; Judge Harold Lederman 8-7; Judge Barney Smith 8-7.

I find it noteworthy to mention that in each case the Referee saw the fight in slightly more defined terms than the judges......The man who had the best view in each case has a slightly stronger opinion than those at ringside.....speaks to sensibility IMHO.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 13:50

BoxBuzz wrote:
*Question: unanswered
*Doubletalk: engaged
*repetition: endless

Very true when it comes to Ali fans pretending that

Joe Frazier never knocked Ali flat on his back and beat him thoroughly

that 185 pound Henry Cooper never knocked Ali down two rounds before Ali was supposedly able to "beat" Sonny Liston

that Ali never lost to 7-fight novice Leon Spinks

that mediocrity Ken Norton never beat Ali

that Cleveland Williams was never shot in the stomach a year and a half before he "fought " Ali in what the Ali Industry calls their product's "greatest performance"

etc etc etc

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 13:52

raylawc appears to be a great believer in those boxing judges.

LOL

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Mar 2008, 14:13

granberry wrote:raylawc appears to be a great believer in those boxing judges.

LOL

yeah and those scoundrel referees as well. Not to mention those dastardly folks with differing opinions.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 14:53

granberry wrote:raylawc appears to be a great believer in those boxing judges.

LOL

I believe even more greatly in separating fact from opinion.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:04

Irrefutable fact:

Billy Fox TKO 4 Jake LaMotta

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:32

Yes, and Jake's record still reads that Jake lost the fight on a fourth round TKO. That's a fact.

In my opinion, I think Jake is telling the truth when he says that he threw the fight to Fox. That's an opinion. (But I could be wrong - that Fox was a big hitter.)

I happen to think its important to separate the two. To say that Doug Jones "beat" Cassius Clay is not a fact, its an opinion. The facts are that Clay got the decision.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:41

raylawpc wrote:Yes, and Jake's record still reads that Jake lost the fight on a fourth round TKO. That's a fact.

In my opinion, I think Jake is telling the truth when he says that he threw the fight to Fox. That's an opinion. (But I could be wrong - that Fox was a big hitter.)

I happen to think its important to separate the two. To say that Doug Jones "beat" Cassius Clay is not a fact, its an opinion. The facts are that Clay got the decision.

ray will now tell us who got the decision in the Floyd Patterson-Jimmy Ellis fight.

That Harold Valan is quite a guy, isn't he ray.

LOL

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:42

raylawpc wrote:Yes, and Jake's record still reads that Jake lost the fight on a fourth round TKO. That's a fact.

In my opinion, I think Jake is telling the truth when he says that he threw the fight to Fox. That's an opinion. (But I could be wrong - that Fox was a big hitter.)

I happen to think its important to separate the two. To say that Doug Jones "beat" Cassius Clay is not a fact, its an opinion. The facts are that Clay got the decision.

I once knew a lawyer that spoke like that

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:43

Ellis got the decision.

How's that Granberry?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:44

kikibalt wrote:
raylawpc wrote:Yes, and Jake's record still reads that Jake lost the fight on a fourth round TKO. That's a fact.

In my opinion, I think Jake is telling the truth when he says that he threw the fight to Fox. That's an opinion. (But I could be wrong - that Fox was a big hitter.)

I happen to think its important to separate the two. To say that Doug Jones "beat" Cassius Clay is not a fact, its an opinion. The facts are that Clay got the decision.
I once knew a lawyer that spoke like that

An absolutely brillant lawyer, no doubt. . .

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:45

raylawpc wrote:Ellis got the decision.

How's that Granberry?

WHO gave him the decision?

(Just the facts, Jack)

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:48

Well, I'll tell you Granberry, but first go to the Doug Jones thread and answer my question as to how much extra time Clay got between betwen the fourth and fifth rounds in the Jones fight.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:54

raylawpc wrote:
kikibalt wrote:
raylawpc wrote:Yes, and Jake's record still reads that Jake lost the fight on a fourth round TKO. That's a fact.

In my opinion, I think Jake is telling the truth when he says that he threw the fight to Fox. That's an opinion. (But I could be wrong - that Fox was a big hitter.)

I happen to think its important to separate the two. To say that Doug Jones "beat" Cassius Clay is not a fact, its an opinion. The facts are that Clay got the decision.
I once knew a lawyer that spoke like that
An absolutely brillant lawyer, no doubt. . .

Yes!!

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:55

If the "official" outcome of a fight is an "irrefutable fact", then there are irrefutable facts in boxing. The official outcome of a fight and the unbiased truth of what happened in the ring may not be the same.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 31 Mar 2008, 15:57

Irrefutable fact:

granberry is the only poster to be labelled a crank on "the greatest thread ever".

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:03

DaveV17 wrote:If the "official" outcome of a fight is an "irrefutable fact", then there are irrefutable facts in boxing. Anyone who believes the official verdict of a fight is the unbiased truth concerning what happened in the ring would make a good juror on the O.J. Simpson or Robert Blake trial.

But it does not take away the fact that it is the official verdict. I happen to think that Kenny Norton beat Ali three out of three. But it is a fact that Kenny only got the decision in one of those.

Wishing he would have gotten decisions other two times, or saying that he should have, will not change the fact that he didn't.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:07

Ray, I also think Norton beat Ali all three times, and you are right, nothing will change the "official" decisions.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:08

Collins2000 wrote:Irrefutable fact:

granberry is the only poster to be labelled a crank on "the greatest thread ever".

Comments from the west coast thread which boxrec's resident snake collins 'missed':

Rick Farris wrote:

Granberry-

Good stuff amigo!

-Rick Farris

______________________________________________________

Rick Farris wrote:Granberry,

Your information on Yaqui Lopez in Philly, Saad Mahammad, etc. was great!

As an L.A. gym rat, I saw a lot of great wars between legendary Mexican champs, etc. However, Philly has always had this rep for great gym wars, and I was a fan of most of those great Philadelphia middle & welterweights.

This past Oct. we, Dan Hanley & I, interviewed Georgie Benton, who was inducted as a trainer. Unfortunatly, we didn't have the time that need be devoted to such a great source of history. I loved watching Benton fight, not to mention Bennie Briscoe, Harold Johnson, "Kitten" Hayward, Gypsy Joe Harris, etc.

Hopefully, Benton will attend our '08 WBHOF banquet. If so, we'll be prepared to do it as it should be done.

-Rick

__________________________________________________

Rick Farris wrote:

granberry wrote:
Rick Farris writes that he would like to interview Georgie Benton.

Benton lost his own career sitting around and waiting.

He was a used as a ‘policeman’ in the overall agenda.

And then his career was over. His years as a fighter were gone.

WHY? Because Carter was supposed to get a title fight (which he then did) and Benton was a dutiful soldier for the people who were controlling things. Carter didn’t belong in the same ring with a fighter like Benton.

This is very interesting. Right after the WBHOF banquet ended last year, most of the boxers & guests, including myself, had rooms at the Hotel. I was with an old friend who helped us conduct the interviews and we went into the bar to have a drink. George Benton, and one of his son's who'd accompanied him, were sitting at the bar.

I took the stool next to Benton and bought he and his son a drink. Earlier in the evening we'd interviewed Benton, and Dan Hanley did a good job despite having no time to prepare. It was one of those on-the-spot things. I jumped in and we pulled a bit more out of George, however, it was what we discussed "off camera" in the bar that validates, in my mind, what you share in the above post.

I won't continue at this moment, as my wife of less than a week has plans for us. I fight with just about anybody, but I don't cross this Brazilian lady.

-Rick

______________________________________________________

Lausse wrote:Granberry,

That was one hell of a story, and it makes much more sense now to me as to why he looked so dramatically different in his fight versus Scott who he outclassed and then his poor showing vs Gregory. I never could figure out why he fought the way he did in that fight as that wasn`t his usual style and he threw almost no body punches either which he normaly did. A shame what happened to him as he had a lot of potential and was a very strong guy with a good head on his shoulders, would you happen to know what Jerry is up to these days and how he is doing by any chance?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:09

DaveV17 wrote:Ray, I also think Norton beat Ali all three times, and you are right, nothing will change the "official" decisions.

Davey, tell him how you scored Ali - Norton (2).

You gave Ali ONE round didn't you?

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:24

Collie, or as Barry calls you, The Village Idiot, (http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80454)

why don't you find my scoring for Norton - Ali 2? Or, better yet, why don't you contribute something to the discussion? You have made almost 2200 posts without contributing anything. I have to give you credit, you are the longest lasting Troll on this board.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:36

DaveV17 wrote:Collie, or as Barry calls you, The Village Idiot, (http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80454)

why don't you find my scoring for Norton - Ali 2? Or, better yet, why don't you contribute something to the discussion? You have made almost 2200 posts without contributing anything. I have to give you credit, you are the longest lasting Troll on this board.

Your score, as I recall, was 119 - 109 to Norton.

Yeah, we all laughed.

Even Baz.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:44

Collie (TVI),
Good to know that you laughed at my scoring. More validation that I scored it correctly.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:45

DaveV17 wrote:Collie, or as Barry calls you, The Village Idiot, (http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80454)

why don't you find my scoring for Norton - Ali 2? Or, better yet, why don't you contribute something to the discussion? You have made almost 2200 posts without contributing anything. I have to give you credit, you are the longest lasting Troll on this board.

Hey, I like Collins 2000!

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:49

kikibalt wrote:
DaveV17 wrote:Collie, or as Barry calls you, The Village Idiot, (http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80454)

why don't you find my scoring for Norton - Ali 2? Or, better yet, why don't you contribute something to the discussion? You have made almost 2200 posts without contributing anything. I have to give you credit, you are the longest lasting Troll on this board.
Hey, I like Collins 2000!

I like you too, Frank. And I like all the posters on "the greatest thread ever" except Mr Nutberry. But no one likes him do they?