Most overrated fighter of all-time

bjermaine · Post by **bjermaine** » 01 Apr 2008, 22:11

i'm sure this thread has been done plenty of times but just interested on what the great minds on this message board think. my vote, sugar ray robinson. i have him in my top 5 pound for pound ever but too many people act like he never lost. i think there's too many fighters in history that would give him a lot of trouble.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 01 Apr 2008, 22:19

Don't we all know where this thread is going . . . . .

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Apr 2008, 22:31

Frank "the animal" Fletcher. His mom just knew how to hypnotize the media.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:02

bjermaine wrote:i'm sure this thread has been done plenty of times but just interested on what the great minds on this message board think. my vote, sugar ray robinson. i have him in my top 5 pound for pound ever but too many people act like he never lost. i think there's too many fighters in history that would give him a lot of trouble.

Who has said that Robinson never lost? When he was in his prime he had a stretch of 88 fights where he went undefeated, and his one loss prior to that was against a guy with a 16 1/2 lbs weight advantage, who he beat once and then beat four more times... but I think people are aware of Ray's losses. I think they are also aware that he usually won rematches, and that almost all of his losses came when he was an old and then shot fighter.

There are plenty of fighters who get way too much attention who did not do a quarter of the things Robinson did. Just look at Tyson or Marciano or Trinidad or De La Hoya. I've heard more than a few people call Chavez the best of all time, when there were probably a couple of dozen or more fighters who I think most would say were better than him.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:06

Robinson, Duran, Ali & Tyson (on the strength of his accomplishments, at least) are all candidates in this discussion. It'd be good of us all to remember, this isn't a knock against the fighter, whichever one you're discussing --- it's a knock against peoples' perception of the fighter.

I'll also re-iterate my stance on ignoring Gran, from now on. I hope others will join me.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:09

Throw Joe Louis in there, then. Suddenly Joe Louis never had tons of fans who went above and beyond in praising him.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:12

I suppose that case could be made, in the sense that his weaknesses aren't spoken of enough when his name is brought up, though I don't think it's as clear-cut as in Ali & Robinson's case.

I guess if I were to categorise who is oversold in tiers, Joe Louis might make the third or fourth tier --- Ali & Robinson would be in the first bracket, which is why they were two I mentioned off the cuff.

Edit: I will say this --- not often you see people under-estimate Ali...see it all the time with Joe.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 02 Apr 2008, 05:33

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Robinson, Duran, Ali & Tyson (on the strength of his accomplishments, at least) are all candidates in this discussion. It'd be good of us all to remember, this isn't a knock against the fighter, whichever one you're discussing --- it's a knock against peoples' perception of the fighter.

When this topic copmes up I always make this point. With this in mind the best fighters have to be the most overrated.

My pick though would be Roy Jones. A great talent, speed, power, hard to hit... BUT I read all the tiem about how Jones would beat the cream of 160 and 175 despite their being very little evidence to go on.

Another guy whoc rops up in MW top 10s is Fullmer. I don't see how he maanges that. A very solid, strong man but there are too many greats in that division IMO.

But generally any guy who gets his ability extrapolated beyond his resume is being overrated. Or when he anyone tells me that X could not be beaten (head-to-head) is also overrated.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 02 Apr 2008, 05:54

Tough call... I think Jack Johnson...as great as he is and as revolutionary as he was, there seems to be a social infatuation over him more as the symbolic nature of what he stood for as opposed to his pugilistic accomplishments.

Being the first black HW champion should not be criteria for greatness.

Being a dominant, skillful, defensive fighter and champion is what he should be remembered for.

He has my vote/

theone · Post by **theone** » 02 Apr 2008, 06:01

I've heard more than a few people call Chavez the best of all time, when there were probably a couple of dozen or more fighters who I think most would say were better than him.

I actually have Chavez #9 on my all-time list.

Jaywheel · Post by **Jaywheel** » 02 Apr 2008, 12:41

-Spinks bros.
-Ike Ibeabuchi – we’ll never know but a lot of people seem to think that he would rule the HW if he was to resume his career today
-Nasseem Hamed
-Any fighter that plopeater named last week saying he was a fan of (special mention to Herbie Hide)

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 02 Apr 2008, 15:42

Marcel Cerdan. Would have been evaluated more fairly had he lived and lost to Jake LaMotta again.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 02 Apr 2008, 16:34

Rocky Marciano
Jack Johnson
Sonny Liston

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 02 Apr 2008, 22:29

Seamus wrote:Rocky Marciano
Jack Johnson
Sonny Liston

Not in agreement with Jack Johnson in this case. But you have to reflect on Liston as to his genuine "greatness". Not something that's very popular to do probably, but you can make the case that he was built up by the media and they then got on the bandwagon of the guy that beat him....and he took them on a MUCH longer ride than Sonny ever did.

His wins are surely impressive to watch, but what GREATS did he beat? Or will some say that he simply beat down greats that never were because they ran into him? He did well against the competition of his time.....until he ran into the Louisville lip. But most of those same names were beaten by his successor as well as others...almost as if there was some equality amoung challengers at the time.

I'm not going any further with this but Seamus you got me thinking and maybe your right on this one. Quite frankly I've never considered Liston as over rated until now.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 03 Apr 2008, 00:10

Louis for decades received tons and tons of adjulation, and to this day receives almost no scrutiny. The one thing I can say for Louis' fans, and Louis himself for that matter, is that they never claimed he was the best fighter of all time, they always seemed/seem to say that Robinson was the best. Ali himself also said that Robinson was the best ever, but there do seem to be a lot more Ali fans (not a majority, but a lot) who rank Ali as the best fighter ever. That, pretty much, is the only distinction I would make between Louis fans and at least some Ali fans. Otherwise, sometimes I listen to many Louis fans of the past few decades and it sounds more like they're talking about Jesus Christ than they are a boxer. And, yes, I know your response will be "but so do many Ali fans", but I'm not saying Louis fans are worse than Ali fans, just that they can be about as bad.

(And, no, I'm not talking about all Louis fans or all Ali fans [myself included], just a lot of them. And this is only my perception, others might have different takes.)

Ali also has a considerable amount of detractors, while pretty much no one hates or has anything overly negative to say about Louis. So that works into the equation.

To me, these guys may have gotten a lot of adjulation, but they did a lot (an understatement) while there have been fighters who have also gotten a ton of praise without having done half of what they did. Tyson being the best example, and Mike to me is the most overrated fighter of all time. But not just Mike, Marciano is way up there. And I might put Holyfield in there, for example, though not as high as Mike and Marciano. Holyfield is one of my favorite fighters. I think he's a legitimate great, a top ten Heavyweight, the best Cruiserweight, all that, but he gets a lot of praise even in comparison with some of the names mentioned (Robinson, Ali, Louis), without having done really close to as much as they did.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 03 Apr 2008, 01:59

I like how Teddy Atlas once put it, "He (Marciano) was both the most over-rated and under-rated heavyweight champion in history. Most over-rated because of the 49-0, and under-rated because nobody ever gave him credit* for it."

*Teddy, more or less, was meaning that people down graded Marciano's victories because of the stand by's that all his opponents were old, that he was in a weak era, etc

bjermaine · Post by **bjermaine** » 03 Apr 2008, 23:24

Robinson wrote:Tough call... I think Jack Johnson...as great as he is and as revolutionary as he was, there seems to be a social infatuation over him more as the symbolic nature of what he stood for as opposed to his pugilistic accomplishments.

Being the first black HW champion should not be criteria for greatness.

Being a dominant, skillful, defensive fighter and champion is what he should be remembered for.

He has my vote/

i take in to consideration all the outside of the ring shit johnson had to put up with. he was probably the most hated athlete of all-time and he didn't care. he could have been killed at any second, in any of his fights when he was champ. look at what happened after the jeffries fight. that's a lot to have on your mind when you enter the ring. the good thing for him is that he was far superior to his opponents most of the time.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 04 Apr 2008, 06:30

Personally, I would sya that Ali is the most overrated fighte rof all time, because of his wit, quick-tongue and speed... Some boxing pundits make him out to be almost god-like.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 04 Apr 2008, 11:04

Holyfield was extremely over-rated following the Tyson fights (some were saying he could be the "greatest HW of all time")

Of course, that was due to people highly over-rating Tyson.

I'd say in general Tyson is the most over-rated fighter in history.

chop-d · Post by **chop-d** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:15

Carlos Monzon

if he didnt thumb Napoles in the eye. matinquilla would have chewed him up

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:51

chop-d wrote:Carlos Monzon

if he didnt thumb Napoles in the eye. matinquilla would have chewed him up

I can't tell if this a serious post or if it is meant in jest. Please elaborate for the sake of my honest curiousity.

chop-d · Post by **chop-d** » 04 Apr 2008, 15:35

Crease wrote:Personally, I would sya that Ali is the most overrated fighte rof all time, because of his wit, quick-tongue and speed... Some boxing pundits make him out to be almost god-like.

how wasn't he god like.....spent some prime years out of the game!!! also his career ending may have tarnished hiom a bit!!!

no way overrated

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Apr 2008, 19:19

chop-d wrote:
Crease wrote:Personally, I would sya that Ali is the most overrated fighte rof all time, because of his wit, quick-tongue and speed... Some boxing pundits make him out to be almost god-like.
how wasn't he god like.....spent some prime years out of the game!!! also his career ending may have tarnished hiom a bit!!!

no way overrated

Much as I like Ali...he clearly IS over rated. He'd be over rated even if after all was said and done it was somehow determined he actually was the best of the best. He's become a mythological figure and there is no way it is in line with reality.

That said I'm not saying he was not excellent. In fact I have him at or near the top of the Heavyweights. I have little argument with the folks who claim Johnson,Louis, Dempsey, Frazier Tunney, Foreman Holmes and Jeffries were in that league....I still have a wee bit of an argument with those who claim Rocky was in this league.

I do tend to get interested when I hear the Doug Jone's, and Jimmy Young's of the world were in this league. But also entertained at the same time.

chop-d · Post by **chop-d** » 04 Apr 2008, 20:41

then who would be your all time heavy

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 04 Apr 2008, 22:42

"Much as I like Ali...he clearly IS over rated. He'd be over rated even if after all was said and done it was somehow determined he actually was the best of the best. He's become a mythological figure and there is no way it is in line with reality..." - BoxBuzz

Most overrated fighter of all-time

Most overrated fighter of all-time

Re: Most overrated fighter of all-time

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