Doug Jones

[HomicideHenry]

Though he never did face a man like Johnson

Not exactly true. Joe Choynski was a better boxer in my opinion than what Johnson was, and Jeffries battled him to a draw when he was in his prime. Jeffries, also, always used Peter Jackson as his basis for comparison to all his future opponents, though Jackson was passed his best at that time.

It was also reported that Jeffries faced with Denver Ed Martin and Frank Childs, though they were never confirmed.

It can be said, that in his short career, that Jeffries fought the best of brawlers, best of stylists.

[Ambling Alp]

He said that Jeffries never fought anyone like Johnson. You say that isn't exactly true and for some reason bring up Joe Choynski. He is in your opinion a better boxer than Johnson. I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

More importantly, how is Choynski like Jack Johnson? They don't seem to be similar fighters at all.

[dempseyfire]

Though he never did face a man like Johnson

Not exactly true. Joe Choynski was a better boxer in my opinion than what Johnson was, and Jeffries battled him to a draw when he was in his prime. Jeffries, also, always used Peter Jackson as his basis for comparison to all his future opponents, though Jackson was passed his best at that time.

It was also reported that Jeffries faced with Denver Ed Martin and Frank Childs, though they were never confirmed.

It can be said, that in his short career, that Jeffries fought the best of brawlers, best of stylists.

Whether he possessed the equal of Johnson's technical abilities is debatable (I never see those who saw both talk about Choynski's skill with the same reverence they do Johnson) but that stated, Choynski was 167 lbs to Johnsons' 209. Johnson at his peak was much the stronger/harder punching man.

[raylawpc]

Though he never did face a man like Johnson

Not exactly true. Joe Choynski was a better boxer in my opinion than what Johnson was, and Jeffries battled him to a draw when he was in his prime. Jeffries, also, always used Peter Jackson as his basis for comparison to all his future opponents, though Jackson was passed his best at that time.

It was also reported that Jeffries faced with Denver Ed Martin and Frank Childs, though they were never confirmed.

It can be said, that in his short career, that Jeffries fought the best of brawlers, best of stylists.

Jeffries never fought Denver Ed Martin or Frank Childs. Here’s how this story got started: In 1896, Jeffries accompanied Billy Gallagher to San Francisco, with the idea that he would start his career and Gallagher would manage him. Gallagher told the press that Jeffries had fought and beaten Martin and Childs, among others, during a barnstorming tour of S. California, Arizona and New Mexico. The Chronicle picked up on this and published a feature on Jeffries that carried the information. “A Young Giant from the South,” San Francisco Chronicle May 22, 1896, p. 9. When Jeffries became famous, he admitted that he never fought any of the opponents claimed by Gallagher. San Francisco Chronicle May 5, 1898, p. 5.

[raylawpc]

Jeffries would have given you a stiff argument that Corbett's stage career had not yet proven detrimental by May 1900. . .

I have a long article by one of Corbett's trainers about the damage Corbett's three shows a day stage career just after fighting Sullivan did to his physical condition.

Terry McGovern's career went downhill after he was a big success on the stage.

Granberry: Can you post the article, or provide the name of the publication, date, and page, so that the rest of us can read it? I am very keen to get any information I can about that era.

[granberry]

Jeffries would have given you a stiff argument that Corbett's stage career had not yet proven detrimental by May 1900. . .

I have a long article by one of Corbett's trainers about the damage Corbett's three shows a day stage career just after fighting Sullivan did to his physical condition.

Terry McGovern's career went downhill after he was a big success on the stage.

Granberry: Can you post the article, or provide the name of the publication, date, and page, so that the rest of us can read it? I am very keen to get any information I can about that era.

If you are keen to get such information, go to the library of congress and leave half of your eyesight there like I did.

With luck and hard work you may find it.

I save valuable finds like that for a better purpose than posting on a site like this.

[granberry]

Whether he possessed the equal of Johnson's technical abilities is debatable (I never see those who saw both talk about Choynski's skill with the same reverence they do Johnson) but that stated, Choynski was 167 lbs to Johnsons' 209. Johnson at his peak was much the stronger/harder punching man.

Fitz, Jeffries, and Corbett all marveled at Choynski's punching power.

In comparison, Johnson was not a big puncher.

One of MANY examples---Johnson hit Marvin Hart a good amount, but came no where near stopping him.

Johnson took 15 rounds to beat the shell of Jeffries, because Johnson was not a puncher, even at his peak.

[raylawpc]

I have a long article by one of Corbett's trainers about the damage Corbett's three shows a day stage career just after fighting Sullivan did to his physical condition.

Terry McGovern's career went downhill after he was a big success on the stage.

Granberry: Can you post the article, or provide the name of the publication, date, and page, so that the rest of us can read it? I am very keen to get any information I can about that era.

If you are keen to get such information, go to the library of congress and leave half of your eyesight there like I did.

With luck and hard work you may find it.

I save valuable finds like that for a better purpose than posting on a site like this.

That tells me one of two things about you: (1) You really don't have such an article, and you are too embarrassed to admit it, or (2) the things some people have been writing about you on this board are correct: That is, you aren't really interested in discussing boxing but only want to irritate.

Now if there are certain people you don't want to share your work product, that's fine. You can always PM me with the information, because I am genuinely interested.

[granberry]

Granberry: Can you post the article, or provide the name of the publication, date, and page, so that the rest of us can read it? I am very keen to get any information I can about that era.

If you are keen to get such information, go to the library of congress and leave half of your eyesight there like I did.

With luck and hard work you may find it.

I save valuable finds like that for a better purpose than posting on a site like this.

That tells me one of two things about you: (1) You really don't have such an article, and you are too embarrassed to admit it, or (2) the things some people have been writing about you on this board are correct: That is, you aren't really interested in discussing boxing but only want to irritate.

Now if there are certain people you don't want to share your work product, that's fine. You can always PM me with the information, because I am genuinely interested.

You came from from cyberboxing recently didn't you, ray?

It may come as a shock to you, but

I DON'T CARE what you think of me.

Save such comments for the women's club.

Your presumptiousness in asking that someone hand you their valuable work is a classic example of pure gall.

[raylawpc]

granberry, you are the kind of fellow who brightens a room by leaving it.

[kikibalt]

granberry, you are the kind of fellow who brightens a room by leaving it.

LOLLLL!!!!!

[granberry]

granberry, you are the kind of fellow who brightens a room by leaving it.

I have talked to only one other person who had the gall that you do, ray.

Next you will "demand" that I give you my bank account numbers.

The other person with an equal amount of gall to your own was a Washington Post writer Juan Williams, who whined to me that he was having trouble getting information on turn of the century Baltimore for the biography of Thurgood Marshall he was working on.

When I told him I had tons of material on turn of the century Baltimore from the work on certain boxers I had done,

he said, "Can you give that to me?"

"Why in the world would I give you my work?" I asked him.

He had no answer.

One of the lowest mentalities I have talked to in my life.

And of course a big success in the media.

[Collins2000]

Granberry, since I've been on this board I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.

And you never will, Ray.

The ability to insert ones head totally up ones arse so nothing comes in and only shit comes out is a trick granberry alone has perfected.

He will give no info because he has none.

[kikibalt]

Granberry, since I've been on this board I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.

ray was brought over here by kikibalt.

Ray's purpose in coming to boxrec has been obvious since he first appeared.

Now he lets it all hang out.

On the safety of the internet, ray is a tough guy.

Poor ray is unhappy and pouting because others won't hand him their work when he asks for it.

Now go have a private mail conference with your mentors kikibalt and collins, and figure out the next juvenile posts you will make.

Hey pendejo, Ray came on his own, he is one true boxing man, he is not full of caca like you, you're so full you need a flushing every 10 minutes.

[granberry]

Granberry, since I've been on this board I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.

ray was brought over here by kikibalt.

Ray's purpose in coming to boxrec has been obvious since he first appeared.

Now he lets it all hang out.

On the safety of the internet, ray is a tough guy.

Poor ray is unhappy and pouting because others won't hand him their work when he asks for it.

Now go have a private mail conference with your mentors kikibalt and collins, and figure out the next juvenile posts you will make.

Hey pendejo, Ray came on his own, he is one true boxing man, he is not full of caca like you, you're so full you need a flushing every 10 minutes.

kikibalt is a bitter, sick old man.

What's ray's excuse?

[kikibalt]

ray was brought over here by kikibalt.

Ray's purpose in coming to boxrec has been obvious since he first appeared.

Now he lets it all hang out.

On the safety of the internet, ray is a tough guy.

Poor ray is unhappy and pouting because others won't hand him their work when he asks for it.

Now go have a private mail conference with your mentors kikibalt and collins, and figure out the next juvenile posts you will make.

Hey pendejo, Ray came on his own, he is one true boxing man, he is not full of caca like you, you're so full you need a flushing every 10 minutes.

kikibalt is a bitter, sick old man.

What's ray's excuse?

Pinche, yes I'm old, but not bitter, I, unlike you, I have lived the true boxing experience, I don't just read boxing books like you, wanna be's like you are a dine a dozen, you fine them at the gyms playing with them selfs when they see a fighter, how many times you done that pendejo.

[Robinson]

Corbett and Choynski seemed to me to be clever, smart boxers....sure enough but from what I have read and seen albeit in limited amounts they do not strike me as being any where near Johnson.

I would never have thought of Johnson to be a power puncher.

I figure Choynski to make up with his slight weight by being aggressive and active against bigger men.

[raylawpc]

ray was brought over here by kikibalt.

Ray's purpose in coming to boxrec has been obvious since he first appeared.

Now he lets it all hang out.

On the safety of the internet, ray is a tough guy.

Poor ray is unhappy and pouting because others won't hand him their work when he asks for it.

Now go have a private mail conference with your mentors kikibalt and collins, and figure out the next juvenile posts you will make.

Hey pendejo, Ray came on his own, he is one true boxing man, he is not full of caca like you, you're so full you need a flushing every 10 minutes.

kikibalt is a bitter, sick old man.

What's ray's excuse?

Me? A naive belief that one can exprect to discuss and share information about boxing on a boxing forum . . .

[Robinson]

Ok...
how about Jones vs Corbett, Jeffries, Choynski and/or Johnson

[raylawpc]

Corbett and Choynski seemed to me to be clever, smart boxers....sure enough but from what I have read and seen albeit in limited amounts they do not strike me as being any where near Johnson.

I would never have thought of Johnson to be a power puncher.

I figure Choynski to make up with his slight weight by being aggressive and active against bigger men.

I think all three were clever boxers, but they fought using different styles, and displayed their cleverness in different ways.

I'll look tonight for some descriptions of the three men from some contemporaneous sources.

[Robinson]

jolly good

[raylawpc]

Ok...
how about Jones vs Corbett, Jeffries, Choynski and/or Johnson

What rules? Turn of the 19th QB rules, or 21st century NYSAC rules? How many rounds? 12, 20 or 25? Are they boxing in a modern ring or on turf, as Corbett did when he fought Sullivan? Maybe a barge off San Francisco, as Choynski and Corbett did? Modern gloves, five-ounce gloves, or skin tight gloves? Mouthpieces or no mouthpieces?

Personally, I think it is very hard to compare fighters from different generations.

In my personal opinion - and I know others have different outlooks - I think the best we can do is look at how each fighter did in the context of his or her own era to measure his greatness.

[Robinson]

lets say nice and simple modern unified rules, just over 12 rounds

[raylawpc]

lets say nice and simple modern unified rules, just over 12 rounds

Don't know . . . Corbett, Choynski, et al never fought under those conditions.

[Robinson]

Well they have in my minds eye !!!

Now get to it.