STEVE COLLINS. WAS HE REALLY A CHAMPION?

[overhand_right]

Collins wins the WBO middleweight belt off Chris Pyatt in 94. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions true #1, either Gerald McClellan (WBC) or Bernard Hopkins (IBF)?

Collins wins the WBO super-middle belt off Eubank in 95. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions #1, Roy Jones (IBF)?

If not, then he is a paper champ.

The WBO: making champions out of those not good enough, since 1989.

[MightyWarrior]

No, just another belt holder like thousands of others.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I think we all know the answers to those questions.

Steve was a very hard guy and a tough bruising brawler but he would have had no chance against any of the aforementioned.

Incidentally I didn't even realise Hopkins and McClellan were belt holders in the same division at the same time?? Now THAT'S a fight. why didnt it happen?? EDIT ahh overhand Hopkins' reign didn't start till 1995 when McClellan had moved up for the benn fight.

[slapbangwhallop]

Collins wins the WBO middleweight belt off Chris Pyatt in 94. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions true #1, either Gerald McClellan (WBC) or Bernard Hopkins (IBF)?

Collins wins the WBO super-middle belt off Eubank in 95. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions #1, Roy Jones (IBF)?

If not, then he is a paper champ.

The WBO: making champions out of those not good enough, since 1989.

If Benn was then Collins was - incase you hadnt noticed Collins put Benn away (twice) and Benn did McClellan, so going on that flawed rationale then he was

[MightyWarrior]

If Benn was then Collins was - incase you hadnt noticed Collins put Benn away (twice) and Benn did McClellan, so going on that flawed rationale then he was

Well that's a flawed argument for a start, as Benn was a former world champ by the time Collins got him. And that doesn't count does it?

[Stocks]

Collins wins the WBO middleweight belt off Chris Pyatt in 94. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions true #1, either Gerald McClellan (WBC) or Bernard Hopkins (IBF)?

Collins wins the WBO super-middle belt off Eubank in 95. Does anyone actually think he could of beaten the divisions #1, Roy Jones (IBF)?

If not, then he is a paper champ.

The WBO: making champions out of those not good enough, since 1989.

That arguement would suggest unless you beat the Ring Magazine Champion then your not classed as a World Champion.

Collins beat eubank, who was Champion for over 4 years, had a Unification bout, beaten guys who were champions at other weights, (Rochijiani) had gone to other peoples back yeards and beat them etc etc.

If Eubank was classed as a "World champion then so was Collins as he beat him"

I think your point should be aimed at the amount of Boxing organisations rather than the individuals themselves!

[STP]

There was no Ring belt back then. The thing is, what made McClellan the #1 MW over Jones Jr and Collins, other than writers opinions? McClellan was Ring's #1 MW, with Jones Jr #2, Reggie Johnson #3, Julian Jackson #4, Collins #5 and Hopkins #6. Collins beat Pyatt who beat Kalambay, who beat Graham and McCallum and Barkley before anyone else. Unifications are key... but they don't happen. So we just have three or four champions. And yeah, boxing has been fucked for years and years now.

Nobody really doubted that Eubank and Watson were the best two SMW's in the world as soon as they moved up - you only had to look at the quality of their weight-drained MW fight, the others champions like Darrin Van Horn were pussies. But then Nunn and Toney moved up, and if you looked at their MW fight, it was of an even higher quality. But Eubank looked better against Thornton than Toney did, and Rocchigiani had never lost the IBF belt, and Eubank drew with the prestigious WBC champion, and Rocchigiani went on to beat Nunn some years later, and Nunn had lost on the prestigous WBC champions undercard, and I don't know, and the magazine #1 MW moved up and lost to the prestigous WBC champion, who Eubank had already beaten at MW, and Jones Jr came up from MW, who held the IBF belt that Rocchigiani never lost and who Eubank beat, and Collins beat Eubank, and I don't know. But I do know that unifications are key.

[STP]

But yeah, he was a champion. What made Jones Jr the #1 SMW when he only held the IBF belt?

Realistically, we all know Collins stood barely any chance against Jones Jr. But still...

[overhand_right]

If Benn was then Collins was - incase you hadnt noticed Collins put Benn away (twice) and Benn did McClellan, so going on that flawed rationale then he was

Who's talking about Benn? Yeah Collins beat him-- after Sugarboy Malinga had already dropped & whopped him, relieving him of his WBC belt.

[overhand_right]

Collins beat eubank, who was Champion for over 4 years, had a Unification bout, beaten guys who were champions at other weights, (Rochijiani) had gone to other peoples back yeards and beat them etc etc.

If Eubank was classed as a "World champion then so was Collins as he beat him"

Disagree.

No one ever thought Eubank was the divisions #1. Besides the journeymen who beat him during his own reign, had he ventured to the states RJJ or Toney would & beat him good and let him keep his WBO strap!

[overhand_right]

Collins beat Pyatt who beat Kalambay, who beat Graham and McCallum and Barkley before anyone else..

Fooking awful line of logic. Lets talk about all Pyatts losses.

But Eubank looked better against Thornton than Toney did.

Your memory fails you. Many people, such as Skys Ian Darke and ITVs Jim Watt, thought Eubank was lucky to get the nod over Thorton.

James Toney shut Thornton out and won virtually every round.

[STP]

Who didn't think Eubank was the best SMW until Toney-Barkley?

Nunn looked poor in the first Cordoba fight, and Benn was being outboxed in part against Malinga and Piper.

Eubank was definitely second fiddle to Toney after Toney-Barkley and Toney-Littles, though (and openly admitted it), largely because Eubank openly didn't want to fight Barkley or Littles, and Toney obliterated them.

[overhand_right]

Anyway, we're going off-topic.

Steve Collins. Made into a 2 division world champion by the WBO without ever having to beat anybody or even venture outside of UK & Ireland.

[STP]

Collins beat Pyatt who beat Kalambay, who beat Graham and McCallum and Barkley before anyone else..

Fooking awful line of logic. Lets talk about all Pyatts losses.

I wasn't ness being serious ;)

[overhand_right]

Thank fook for that.

[STP]

Your memory fails you. Many people, such as Skys Ian Darke and ITVs Jim Watt, thought Eubank was lucky to get the nod over Thorton.

James Toney shut Thornton out and won virtually every round.

Yeah, and Screensport's David Brenner and Barry McGuigan had Eubank winning by a mile.

Even Jim Watt admitted Chris was boxing 'beautifully' (and that was like getting blood from a stone) in the first four rounds.

Thornton was beating Toney after six rounds, though Toney won the last six easily.

I think Eubank's foot movement required more skill than Toney's upper body movement, in the Thornton fights. That's my opinion.

[overhand_right]

David Brenner? Thats like relying on Alan Partridge to tell you who's a better fighter.

McGuigan? Oh yeah, the guy who has zero credibility and shills the house fighter.

[Crew2]

WBO IS NOT 1 OF THE BIG 3, SO NOT REALLY

THE BEST CHAMPIONS WERE WBC (WHITAKER, NORRIS, CHAVEZ, GMAN, NELSON, LENNOX, MCCALLUM)

[Crew2]

WAS THORNTON THAT HAGLER WANNABE ? THE LIMITED, BALDHEADED POSTMAN WHO WAS ALL WORKRATE AND ONLY THREW THE RIGHT HAND ? HE WAS CRAP

EUBANK DID HIS BEST SUGAR RAY LEONARD IMPRESSION BUT THORNTON OUTWORKED HIM IN THE MIDDLE ROUNDS ND SWEEPED THE LAST 2 OR 3 ON WORKRATE WI CHRIS RUNNING AWAY KNACKERED

[Stocks]

Collins beat eubank, who was Champion for over 4 years, had a Unification bout, beaten guys who were champions at other weights, (Rochijiani) had gone to other peoples back yeards and beat them etc etc.

If Eubank was classed as a "World champion then so was Collins as he beat him"

Disagree.

No one ever thought Eubank was the divisions #1. Besides the journeymen who beat him during his own reign, had he ventured to the states RJJ or Toney would & beat him good and let him keep his WBO strap!

I never said they did class Eubank as a true world champion....but I'm saying IF people do Collins must be as well as he beat him

[STP]

WAS THORNTON THAT HAGLER WANNABE ? THE LIMITED, BALDHEADED POSTMAN WHO WAS ALL WORKRATE AND ONLY THREW THE RIGHT HAND ? HE WAS CRAP

EUBANK DID HIS BEST SUGAR RAY LEONARD IMPRESSION BUT THORNTON OUTWORKED HIM IN THE MIDDLE ROUNDS ND SWEEPED THE LAST 2 OR 3 ON WORKRATE WI CHRIS RUNNING AWAY KNACKERED

If you judged on workrate, Thornton won every round after the fourth. If you took finesse and ring generalship into account, Eubank continued to pick up the rounds. The only round Tony was winning clearly was the ninth, but then Eubank pulled out that big flurry at the end to take that one.

Leonard nicked the rounds against Hagler with flurries in the last minute. Eubank was throwing flurries in the first two minutes and Thornton trying to nick them in the last minute with pressure.

[STP]

To get an idea just how strong Thornton was - he had Steve Collins boxing and moving for the whole 12 rounds! If you judged that one on pace and pressure, Thornton would have won every minute.

[Crease]

Steve Collins was a great boxer, and yes he did deserve to hold his title... For nay who ahven't noticed, Collins defeated Eubank and Benn TWICE!!!

So whenever your naming the greatest of this divsion, clearly Steve should come above either of them....

PLUS, When Steve was WBO champion, here ar ethe name sof the other champions

WBC - Robin Reid.
Steve would have crushed Reid within 6 rounds, Reid was never the fighter that the Brits tried to make out he was... Just because he held the WBC, doesn't mean he was no. 1.

WBA - Frankie Liles.
Liles is a boxing unknown, not many people remember him, but each time he came up against someone taletned he would fall.

IBF - Charles Brewster.
On his best day, Brewster MIGHT have given Collins problems, BUT he was far too inconsistent to beat him...

Collins was DEFINTELY no 1 during his reign...

[NaFianna]

Steve Collins was a great boxer, and yes he did deserve to hold his title... For nay who ahven't noticed, Collins defeated Eubank and Benn TWICE!!!

So whenever your naming the greatest of this divsion, clearly Steve should come above either of them....

PLUS, When Steve was WBO champion, here ar ethe name sof the other champions

WBC - Robin Reid.
Steve would have crushed Reid within 6 rounds, Reid was never the fighter that the Brits tried to make out he was... Just because he held the WBC, doesn't mean he was no. 1.

WBA - Frankie Liles.
Liles is a boxing unknown, not many people remember him, but each time he came up against someone taletned he would fall.

IBF - Charles Brewster.
On his best day, Brewster MIGHT have given Collins problems, BUT he was far too inconsistent to beat him...

Collins was DEFINTELY no 1 during his reign...

Agreed.

Steve wasn't a particularly good "boxer" but was a great "fighter". He had a great knack of adapting to any style and was always going to givge anyone a good run for their money. Tough as nails that guy was!

And a true champion, regardless of what others may say.

[STP]

THE LIMITED, BALDHEADED POSTMAN WHO WAS ALL WORKRATE AND ONLY THREW THE RIGHT HAND ? HE WAS CRAP

No fighter who wins 30+ fights and scores 20+ knockouts or whatever it was, beats Merqui Sosa and challenges for world titles is crap. His hand went against Collins and he still deserved the nod.

Thornton was very good, nice peek-a-boo defence and cut the ring size down very well, with a good sneak right hand and a good power right hand.

He was considered Eubank's best opponent since Benn and Watson, a league above the likes of Malinga.