Joe Calzaghe

[Spud]

Just been watching the "Best of ITV" boxing on ITV 4 prior to the Amir Khan show:

On this show it came out with 2 statements which I honestly believe are worthy of discussion - one I have no doubts many will disagree with me on :

1 - In in his eagerness to please Mr W arren - John Rawling stated Joe Calzaghe's career defining fight was the Jeff Lacy fight - sorry got to disagree - Lacy I will always state was a product of the exagerated way the yanks and to a point many people in boxing over hype certain boxers - Lacy in my view was ordinary and its no wonder Calzaghe looked sensational against him -

Now before anyone starts yes I have been a fierce Calzaghe critic - but for me his defining fight was the Kessler one - Kessler was at his very best - I honestly thought he had what it took to beat Calzaghe and Calzaghe beat in my view a very very good champion indeed.

A question - for you what was the Welshmans defining fight and why?

2 - Secondly I thought once Rawling made his statement McGuigan was f*cked in who could please Mr W arren the most - I was wrong - because McGuigan came in with his knock out blow by stating Joe Calzaghe was/is the greatest British fighter of all time -

do you agree - if not - where do you place Calzaghe?

[Autobarn]

Calzaghe is certainly not the best ever British boxer even though he should join the British greats.

Barry McGuigan is the boxing face who told as many ppl as possible that the WBU was good for boxing in the grim Warren/Sky years, so how much does what he says count?

[hitman_hatton1]

i think lacy was his career defining fight in terms of level of performance. obviously lacy has looked a busted flush since that fight and the win doesn't look all that. i agree that kessler is his best win though.

i definitely think u can make an argument that calzaghe is the best british boxer of all time. the obvious answer is lennox lewis. but u could come back and say "well least joe never got knocked out twice"

[DG.]

He had not fought KESSLER when that programme was made!

Give me strength!

[STP]

Barry McGuigan was shouting (after Watson had beaten Eubank to a bloody pulp for 11 rounds straight with non-stop pressure and non-stop power shots) 'Eubank's not hurt at all, he's just knackered' when he was out on his feet.

When Barry gets something in his mind, he's very subjective. He saw Eubank fight Denys Cronin and thought he was one of the best things since sliced bread. So didn't want to admit to himself that Watson was panning him fair and square, or didn't want to admit to the viewers who hadn't viewed what he'd viewed in Splott, Cardiff.

Man, he thought Lacy was going to kill Calzaghe. And after that one fight, he said Calzaghe was the greatest British fighter ever... yet had zero confidence in him before the Lacy fight.

For the record, he's nowhere near the greatest British fighter ever. He hasn't (and isn't) fought anyone near their best. Kessler wasn't at his best, he wasn't using his ring generalship like he was in his previous fight, one way and the other, and had been training with a busted hand, and was way away from home. Eubank couldn't walk for two weeks after his fight with Calzaghe, his knee was so gone, and he wasn't using his ring generalship and ring movement either.

If Hopkins was five to eight years younger, he'd dis-locate Calzaghe and dissect him.

Anyway, fornicate off.

[BigGar]

Calzaghe is a superb fighter but I wouldn't even call him the greatest Welsh fighter in history. That title would go to Jimmy Wilde. I suppose you could even argue that Wilde is the best British fighter ever.

The Kessler win was his career defining fight (so far) in my opinion. Just praying that he can decisively beat Hopkins. It won't be easy but I want someone to shut Nard up once an for all!!!!

[Carbo]

Just been watching the "Best of ITV" boxing on ITV 4 prior to the Amir Khan show:

On this show it came out with 2 statements which I honestly believe are worthy of discussion - one I have no doubts many will disagree with me on :

1 - In in his eagerness to please Mr W arren - John Rawling stated Joe Calzaghe's career defining fight was the Jeff Lacy fight - sorry got to disagree - Lacy I will always state was a product of the exagerated way the yanks and to a point many people in boxing over hype certain boxers - Lacy in my view was ordinary and its no wonder Calzaghe looked sensational against him -

Now before anyone starts yes I have been a fierce Calzaghe critic - but for me his defining fight was the Kessler one - Kessler was at his very best - I honestly thought he had what it took to beat Calzaghe and Calzaghe beat in my view a very very good champion indeed.

A question - for you what was the Welshmans defining fight and why?

2 - Secondly I thought once Rawling made his statement McGuigan was f*cked in who could please Mr W arren the most - I was wrong - because McGuigan came in with his knock out blow by stating Joe Calzaghe was/is the greatest British fighter of all time -

do you agree - if not - where do you place Calzaghe?

I hea what you're saying Spud, because Lacy was more of a reputation than anything else. Calzaghe beat the guy and he turned out to be not much but reputation and his own self confidence, which seems to have been shattered. That means that we boxing fans really know that Lacy, in the end, wasn't his defining fight.

However, often, defining fights are all about perception. A defining fight isn't necessarily about the quality of the opposition so much as it is about breaking into the elite. I think Lacy can be seen as a defining fight because Calzaghe was underdog, most of the American press were high on Lacy, and Calzaghe put in a startling performance.

As for Calzaghe being the greatest boxer of all time, I believe that if he retires unbeaten with a couple of more name scalpes under his belt, there'd be an argument for saying so.

[whiskey]

I think Joe has great assets but has never really featured in a fight with someone who was classed as 'great' themselves.

Eubank reportedly shed 18 pound in a fortnight to take Joe the full 12, yet was hardly in his peak and that defeat was amongst a run of losses at the end of a career.

Mitchell lost to Ottke about 3 months prior to flooring Joe ...and Brewer had lost twice to Ottke and had about 8 defeats on his record at the time...and a jouneyman beat him quicker than Joe.

Now lets look at Nigel Benn - his epic fight with the brutal KO machine Gerrald McCllelan was a real fight. The stakes were high and G-man had something like 29kos in 31 fights and they included Julian Jackson, John Mugabi in a round.

Despite the terrible outcome for McClellan, the fight proved Benn has balls of steel. In the first round he got punched through the ropes and came roaring back to win.

A tepid 12 rounds with Kessler just does not compare for me and therefore i put Joe behind Benn and Eubank despite maybe having more ability.

[Max Molyneux]

Joe cleaned out becoming the first undisputed 12stone fighter, he's above Eubank and Benn In achievement too.

[Autobarn]

Benn didn't unify successfully and never proved himself beyond doubt the best at the weight, like Joe did. However, he held a title that was harder to defend and seemed to fight more good fighters than Calzaghe faced.

[whiskey]

Not in my opinion.

Swerving all American threats for multiple years shouldn't be classed as achievement.

Nor should fighting lots and lots of men from light-middle whilst swerving the likes of (then unbeaten) domestic rivals like Brian Magee and now Carl Froch in favour of a rematch with Mario Veit and Evans Ashira.

How somebody can be a decade-long champion at the same time as a fellow champion who makes 21 defences and then retires does beg a few questions in my mind.

Especially when they have beaten men he has swerved (glencoffe johnson)

Sorry, but for all joe's talent i find it remarkable that all the big names like Jones, johnson, Winky, Hopkins, Tarver all fought one another a few years ago - yet Joe stayed out of the action.

His achievements might have convinced many, but they haven't convinced me.

Taylor then Pavlik are the 2 fights he needs for redemption - beat the man who beat the man... and then beat the man who beat him.

[Autobarn]

There is still the feeling with Calzaghe that - although he did a big thing in beating Kessler and Lacy - that such fights were massively overdue.

Now he's fighting the big name in America, who happens to be...43 - hardly the prime age for a fighter.

Also, can any of us really be sure exactly how good Joe is? Because he's certainly had things his own way i.e. wait 10 years until the other champs start coming to you. Yes, the performances vs Lacy and Kessler were very persuasive, but others have been amateurish.

[Max Molyneux]

What American threats? Only RJJ was worthy enough but he kept weight jumping.

Ducking Froch and Magee? Magee would get Ko'ed and lost to Oakey on gift draw and Froch gets counter punched by Reid and Westerman.

Hopkins was the one who turned the fight down and now taking the fight when he has nothing to lose from his beating he's getting from Joe.

Winky fights Hopkins when he's overweight at LHW too doesn't cut It.

Only Roy was a worthy challenge and I put that as 50/50 since Roy was speed and timing reliant and dropped his hands too much showing off because he could.

[whiskey]

You use the smiley symbol for froch and magee who you know are streets ahead of Ashira and Manfrodo.

There ain't a smiley big enough for those two dude

[The_Don1]

Joe is an exceptional boxer, no doubt about that, but its all too little too late, he should have been unifying years ago.

I can understand him not fighting Ottke cos Ottke probably wouldn't have accepted the fight outside of Germany and we all know how the judges and ref's went on with him there.

However whilst Ottke was IBF champ, Joe should have been gunning for the WBA/WBC champs at the time, it took Joe 9 years to unify, that's way too long.

[Max Molyneux]

Manfredo has better fundementals than Froch and can keep his hands up. Froch's been watching too many Roy Jones Jr fights.

Manfredo and Ashira are better than Sky hype Magee and are better than Westerman. Manfredo would of beaten Oakey.

[Max Molyneux]

Joe is an exceptional boxer, no doubt about that, but its all too little too late, he should have been unifying years ago.

I can understand him not fighting Ottke cos Ottke probably wouldn't have accepted the fight outside of Germany and we all know how the judges and ref's went on with him there.

However whilst Ottke was IBF champ, Joe should have been gunning for the WBA/WBC champs at the time, it took Joe 9 years to unify, that's way too long.

Ottke was happy defending his IBF rather than fighting Joe his trainer admitted In boxing monthly, Joe would of seriously hurt Ottke.

[knockout]

I agree with those who think Calzaghe has disappointed...
champion for 10 years yet you can count the good opponents on one hand....

that shows a champion/promoter combination with no desire or hunger for greatness....

sure the division wasnt stacked but fights with Ottke, a prime Woodhall, a Reid rematch, Mads Larsen would have been much better than what we got....and if you are really ambitious and hungry a step up to light heavy were Tiozzo, Dariusz, RJJ, Branco would have all been good.

names like Mkrtchian, McIntyre, Pudwill, Thornberry, Jiminez et al do not look good on a championship reign....

[The_Don1]

Joe is an exceptional boxer, no doubt about that, but its all too little too late, he should have been unifying years ago.

I can understand him not fighting Ottke cos Ottke probably wouldn't have accepted the fight outside of Germany and we all know how the judges and ref's went on with him there.

However whilst Ottke was IBF champ, Joe should have been gunning for the WBA/WBC champs at the time, it took Joe 9 years to unify, that's way too long.

Ottke was happy defending his IBF rather than fighting Joe his trainer admitted In boxing monthly, Joe would of seriously hurt Ottke.

Yeah I've not doubt about that, in my post I didn't advocate that Joe should have fought Ottke, but there were 2 other champs around while Ottke held the IBF title.

[Max Molyneux]

Joe is an exceptional boxer, no doubt about that, but its all too little too late, he should have been unifying years ago.

I can understand him not fighting Ottke cos Ottke probably wouldn't have accepted the fight outside of Germany and we all know how the judges and ref's went on with him there.

However whilst Ottke was IBF champ, Joe should have been gunning for the WBA/WBC champs at the time, it took Joe 9 years to unify, that's way too long.

Ottke was happy defending his IBF rather than fighting Joe his trainer admitted In boxing monthly, Joe would of seriously hurt Ottke.

Yeah I've not doubt about that, in my post I didn't advocate that Joe should have fought Ottke, but there were 2 other champs around while Ottke held the IBF title.

Yeah another German called Beyer and Mitchell who was stopped In 2 by Joe.

We can;t doubt Joe wouldn't of done a number on Beyer, would of won easier than Kessler did due to styles.

[The_Don1]

Ottke was happy defending his IBF rather than fighting Joe his trainer admitted In boxing monthly, Joe would of seriously hurt Ottke.

Yeah I've not doubt about that, in my post I didn't advocate that Joe should have fought Ottke, but there were 2 other champs around while Ottke held the IBF title.

Yeah another German called Beyer and Mitchell who was stopped In 2 by Joe.

We can;t doubt Joe wouldn't of done a number on Beyer, would of won easier than Kessler did due to styles.

Yeah - the point I'm making is why didn't he do that number? why did he take 9 years to unify? This is why Joe will always be called into question. It looks like he sat back and took the easy route then cashed in towards the end of his career.

[Autobarn]

I agree with those who think Calzaghe has disappointed...
champion for 10 years yet you can count the good opponents on one hand....

that shows a champion/promoter combination with no desire or hunger for greatness....

sure the division wasnt stacked but fights with Ottke, a prime Woodhall, a Reid rematch, Mads Larsen would have been much better than what we got....and if you are really ambitious and hungry a step up to light heavy were Tiozzo, Dariusz, RJJ, Branco would have all been good.

names like Mkrtchian, McIntyre, Pudwill, Thornberry, Jiminez et al do not look good on a championship reign....

Honestly I would have preferred it if Dean Francis hadn't hurt his right shoulder, and if Warren pushed Francis for the WBO. He would have done some classy correct boxing, he wouldn't have made a meal out of Starie (Francis dismantled Starie in, I believe, a British title fight) & would've made some nice defences probably. I think Joe took so long to do the big fights because he didn't have a real style; it was a "made up" kind if style & they had to mould him slowly. Francis was getting close to being an excellent stylist. What a damn shame.

[Max Molyneux]

Yeah I've not doubt about that, in my post I didn't advocate that Joe should have fought Ottke, but there were 2 other champs around while Ottke held the IBF title.

Yeah another German called Beyer and Mitchell who was stopped In 2 by Joe.

We can;t doubt Joe wouldn't of done a number on Beyer, would of won easier than Kessler did due to styles.

Yeah - the point I'm making is why didn't he do that number? why did he take 9 years to unify? This is why Joe will always be called into question. It looks like he sat back and took the easy route then cashed in towards the end of his career.

Why didn't he? Well Beyer didn't have to fight him either.

[whiskey]

Manfredo has better fundementals than Froch and can keep his hands up. Froch's been watching too many Roy Jones Jr fights.

Manfredo and Ashira are better than Sky hype Magee and are better than Westerman. Manfredo would of beaten Oakey.

Wow Max,

That is all i can reply with

So you'd pick Manfredo to beat Froch... and light-middle Ashira to beat Brian Magee?

Man you come straight out a comic book !

[Max Molyneux]

Manfredo has better fundementals than Froch and can keep his hands up. Froch's been watching too many Roy Jones Jr fights.

Manfredo and Ashira are better than Sky hype Magee and are better than Westerman. Manfredo would of beaten Oakey.

Wow Max,

That is all i can reply with

So you'd pick Manfredo to beat Froch... and light-middle Ashira to beat Brian Magee?

Man you come straight out a comic book !

Least I don't keep Froch's arse warm like you yes men.

I pick Manfredo to beat Magee and Ashira has a chance yep.

Dodson was better than Magee, Magee ducked Barbosa as well.

All you anti Calzaghe sissies have Is the opposition excuse and when Joe steps up he still wins.

Manfredo has the fundementals to time and give Froch problems, Froch has yet to step up above domestic level, we will see when he fights Inkin. He could of stepped up earlier too.