Muhammad Ali vrs Cleveland Williams(Nov.14.1966)

theone · Post by **theone** » 01 Apr 2008, 19:41

I've been complaining about that idiots trolling for a long time now. I used to post here alot more often until granberry started sabotaging topic after topic after topic with his nonsense. It took all the fun out of posting here.

Ban his trolling ass already.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 01 Apr 2008, 21:35

BoxBuzz wrote:
Woller wrote:Stop lying about me.

You wrote that crap in a topic where a serious boxing fan asked if the fight was filmed from more than one angle.

That is turning good boxing talk into rubbish.

Woller
Woller has a point granberry, bad form at the very least.

Boxrec 'moderator' buzz now says it is "bad form"

for a poster to post facts on the physical condition of Cleveland Williams at the time he fought Ali

on a thread titled Muhammed Ali vrs Cleveland Williams.

The night of the living dead has taken over boxrec, with the help and enabling of "moderator" buzz.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 01 Apr 2008, 21:55

granberry wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Woller wrote:Stop lying about me.

You wrote that crap in a topic where a serious boxing fan asked if the fight was filmed from more than one angle.

That is turning good boxing talk into rubbish.

Woller
Woller has a point granberry, bad form at the very least.

Boxrec 'moderator' buzz now says it is "bad form"

for a poster to post facts on the physical condition of Cleveland Williams at the time he fought Ali

on a thread titled Muhammed Ali vrs Cleveland Williams.

The night of the living dead has taken over boxrec, with the help and enabling of "moderator" buzz.

Mentioning it once is fine.

Mentioning it every day in thread after thread is not fine.

It's called trolling.

Have you noticed quite a few normal posters want your whining old ass banned?

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:25

Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote: Woller has a point granberry, bad form at the very least.

Boxrec 'moderator' buzz now says it is "bad form"

for a poster to post facts on the physical condition of Cleveland Williams at the time he fought Ali

on a thread titled Muhammed Ali vrs Cleveland Williams.

The night of the living dead has taken over boxrec, with the help and enabling of "moderator" buzz.

Mentioning it once is fine.

Mentioning it every day in thread after thread is not fine.

It's called trolling.

Have you noticed quite a few normal posters want your whining old ass banned?

collins has never made a post on the subject of boxing.

And she never will.

Knucklez · Post by **Knucklez** » 02 Apr 2008, 05:33

granberry wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:
Boxrec 'moderator' buzz now says it is "bad form"

for a poster to post facts on the physical condition of Cleveland Williams at the time he fought Ali

on a thread titled Muhammed Ali vrs Cleveland Williams.

The night of the living dead has taken over boxrec, with the help and enabling of "moderator" buzz.

Mentioning it once is fine.

Mentioning it every day in thread after thread is not fine.

It's called trolling.

Have you noticed quite a few normal posters want your whining old ass banned?

collins has never made a post on the subject of boxing.

And she never will.

You sad, pathetic little man.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 02 Apr 2008, 15:58

I think the sad truth is that Gran doesnt mind what we call him, or the fact that he is disliked... he likes the attention he gets in here... who knows maybe he wasnt cuddled enouth as a kid??.... the thing to do is simply ignore him like they do now on the westcoast thread!.... dont react to his inane drivel.... if he doesnt get any reactions then in the end maybe he'll just go away... or atleast move on to the current forum!...

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 05 Apr 2008, 17:42

On ESPN/Ringside,
Bert Sugar's Top 25 knockouts,he had this listed as number 24.
They showed the film,but it started with the fourth knock down and then the ref stopping the fight with Williams still standing,but then they showed short clips of the 3 previous knockdowns,but im not even sure if they were in chronogically order because Ive never seen the full three rounds!

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 05 Apr 2008, 18:33

Cleveland Williams loss to Muhammed Ali in 1966 took his record to 65-6-1. When he retired in 1972 his record was 78-13-1, meaning that in the six years after the Ali fight, he had twenty fights and won thirteen of them.

Not bad for a washed up cripple.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 05 Apr 2008, 18:45

Brute wrote:Cleveland Williams loss to Muhammed Ali in 1966 took his record to 65-6-1. When he retired in 1972 his record was 78-13-1, meaning that in the six years after the Ali fight, he had twenty fights and won thirteen of them.

Not bad for a washed up cripple.

Sshhhhhhhh, granberry doesn't like you to mention that sort of thing.

He wants to continue his fantasy of Williams coming down the aisle to the ring in a wheelchair.

LOL
.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 05 Apr 2008, 19:03

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
p4p1 wrote:
granberry wrote:How many title challengers did Joe Louis fight

who were missing one kidney, ten feet of their small intestine, had a shriveled leg from nerve damage from the bullet they were shot with at point blank range from a magnum gun a year and a half before he fought them?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

LOL
at least ali was never dropped bye tony golento
At least Joe was never outboxed by Ron Lyle

Excuse me, I must hastily depart, as I hear the unmistakeable click of IFF's handgun

Leading on points counts for nothing if you can't stay the distance. Louis came from well behind on points to KO Lightheavyweight Billy Conn.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 05 Apr 2008, 19:04

Collins2000 wrote:
Brute wrote:Cleveland Williams loss to Muhammed Ali in 1966 took his record to 65-6-1. When he retired in 1972 his record was 78-13-1, meaning that in the six years after the Ali fight, he had twenty fights and won thirteen of them.

Not bad for a washed up cripple.

Sshhhhhhhh, granberry doesn't like you to mention that sort of thing.

He wants to continue his fantasy of Williams coming down the aisle to the ring in a wheelchair.

LOL
.

Granma must have had a relative on Ali's draft board.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 05 Apr 2008, 19:10

How many of Cleveland Williams fights were televised?
I believe the first fight with Sonny Liston in Miami Beach was Williams first nationally televised fight.
The second fight in Houston was closed circuit broadcast.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Apr 2008, 08:52

Brute wrote:Cleveland Williams loss to Muhammed Ali in 1966 took his record to 65-6-1. When he retired in 1972 his record was 78-13-1, meaning that in the six years after the Ali fight, he had twenty fights and won thirteen of them.

Not bad for a washed up cripple.

Very true, I have williams fight with George Chuvalo from the 70s and they went 10 tough rounds together... not bad for a guy who shouldnt have been fighting!....

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 Apr 2008, 10:08

Brute wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:
p4p1 wrote:at least ali was never dropped bye tony golento
At least Joe was never outboxed by Ron Lyle

Excuse me, I must hastily depart, as I hear the unmistakeable click of IFF's handgun
Leading on points counts for nothing if you can't stay the distance. Louis came from well behind on points to KO Lightheavyweight Billy Conn.

It means nothing? Is that why Ali fans point straight at Louis-Conn I (They don't dare discuss the rematch, where a fading, past-it Louis annihilated a still young Conn) when arguing their man was #1?

I take it we shall never again hear of Louis-Conn I then, as the result means nothing. This much, & one thing more --- there was no doubt when Louis put Conn away --- can't say the same for the Ali-Lyle stoppage.

Also, it's time the myth was put to rest --- Louis was not, "well-behind" against Conn. What happened was, Conn did far better than anyone expected, & in point of fact, was winning the fight --- this has caused many to lose all sense of reality in connection with the fight. Conn was ahead on two scorecards (fairly narrowly), & even on the third --- this was a closely-fought contest, no one dominated anyone.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Apr 2008, 10:23

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Brute wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote: At least Joe was never outboxed by Ron Lyle

Excuse me, I must hastily depart, as I hear the unmistakeable click of IFF's handgun
Leading on points counts for nothing if you can't stay the distance. Louis came from well behind on points to KO Lightheavyweight Billy Conn.
It means nothing? Is that why Ali fans point straight at Louis-Conn I (They don't dare discuss the rematch, where a fading, past-it Louis annihilated a still young Conn) when arguing their man was #1?

I take it we shall never again hear of Louis-Conn I then, as the result means nothing. This much, & one thing more --- there was no doubt when Louis put Conn away --- can't say the same for the Ali-Lyle stoppage.

Also, it's time the myth was put to rest --- Louis was not, "well-behind" against Conn. What happened was, Conn did far better than anyone expected, & in point of fact, was winning the fight --- this has caused many to lose all sense of reality in connection with the fight. Conn was ahead on two scorecards (fairly narrowly), & even on the third --- this was a closely-fought contest, no one dominated anyone.

Lyle was out on his feet against Ali just like he was against Foreman... watch the fight...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 06 Apr 2008, 17:01

silkov wrote:
Lyle was out on his feet against Ali just like he was against Foreman... watch the fight...

What are you selling?

The Foreman-Lyle fight was NOT a title fight,

and it went on until it ended in a TEN COUNT.

The Ali-Lyle fight was a TITLE fight, Lyle was WAY ahead on points,

and the ref stopped it in Ali's favor with NO knockdowns and no count.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Apr 2008, 19:33

granberry wrote:
silkov wrote:
Lyle was out on his feet against Ali just like he was against Foreman... watch the fight...
What are you selling?

The Foreman-Lyle fight was NOT a title fight,

and it went on until it ended in a TEN COUNT.

The Ali-Lyle fight was a TITLE fight, Lyle was WAY ahead on points,

and the ref stopped it in Ali's favor with NO knockdowns and no count.

Well that was in order to save a man who was out on his feet from needless battering. Was Lyle about to pull a rabbit out of the hat in your opinion?

Or do you see this as something along the lines of how Richard Steele saved the day for Julio Cesar Chavez?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:43

I'm with Granberry. I thought the referee stopped Ali-Lyle too soon.

However, Lyle was not "way ahead." The scorecards after 10 favored Lyle:

Judge Bill Kipp, 49-43; Judge Art Lurie, 46-45; Judge John Mangriciana, 46-46.

As I recall, I had Lyle a couple of points ahead.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:46

raylawpc wrote:I'm with Granberry. I thought the referee stopped Ali-Lyle too soon.

A lot of people feel that way (I'm one of them). A lot of people on here have strong feelings the other way, though.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:50

Was he likely to have survived the round? Was that aspect in doubt? Sometimes we want to see the man fall I understand that. I would have liked to have seen Castillo fall at the hands of Diego, but I'm not sure it would have been a good thing for him.

My question was sincere....in terms of asking folks if they thought Lyle was going to pull out of the problem.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:54

BoxBuzz wrote:Was he likely to have survived the round?

I thought so. If I didn't, I wouldn't be criticizing Ferd Hernandez for stopping it.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:56

How many of the top contenders in the Heavyweight division during the 70's were tougher, or had better recuperative powers, than Lyle, Buzz?

I have always thought if Ali had been ahead on the cards, as expected, the fight may not be stopped. Ali being behind on the cards may very well have had something to do with the referee's decision.

Before anyone says the ref doesn't know the scorecards, obviously, I'm referring to the fact Ali was plainly losing the fight upto that point. I don't think even the staunchest Ali fan here avoids the fact he was a protected species during his second reign.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:56

He truly was not defending himself, how long can you let a fighter safely get hit with no attempt at a defense? If Lyle was not hurt he certainly should have indicated that by putting up some sort of defense...that was a lot of unanswered blows. How long should a ref allow that to go on?

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 06 Apr 2008, 21:58

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
raylawpc wrote:I'm with Granberry. I thought the referee stopped Ali-Lyle too soon.
A lot of people feel that way (I'm one of them). A lot of people on here have strong feelings the other way, though.

It's an issue on which reasonable minds can differ. The referee, of course, had a much better view of Lyle's condition in that Las Vegas ring than I did watching the fight on TV. But based on what I saw, it was premature.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 Apr 2008, 22:04

See, that's the thing, though, Ray --- not everyone here thinks a reasonable mind can argue Lyle was prematurely stopped. Some would contend it is, "Ali-bashing," which I don't think is true at all.

We'll have to disagree, Buzz. I do think Lyle, who showed superior recuperative abilities than most of his contemporaries, did not find himself in serious danger of his health being compromised. Here's the acid test for me --- if Lyle landed that many shots on Ali, would the referee have jumped in, stopping the fight & awarding it in Lyle's favour? Obviously, it's a matter of opinion, but mine answer is no, which ties in to Ali's protection during his second reign.

Muhammad Ali vrs Cleveland Williams(Nov.14.1966)

televised fights