Muhammad Ali vrs Cleveland Williams(Nov.14.1966)

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Apr 2008, 22:12

I don't see the ambiguity in this case, Lyle owed it to himself to give the ref no cause to be concerned. If it was a bit of a rouse to lull Ali in I guess he just waited too long. The unanswered and damaging blows did go on for some time. He didn't seem to be able to muster any sort of response over quite a noticeable period of time.

I would think it would have worked the same in reverse maybe even with more caution.. Wouldn't they want to protect Ali from those kinds of punches especially coming from Lyle?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 Apr 2008, 22:37

No, they would want to protect their enormous financial investment --- Ali, the champ more people will want to see fight than Lyle (or anyone else with the title). It's easy to overlook a fighters' safety when that's on the line. Just look at how those who, "loved Ali" Dundee, Pacheco, Brown etc. let him fight on. You can say it's Ali's decision, but they continued to be in the corner. Why? Money.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 06 Apr 2008, 23:16

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No, they would want to protect their enormous financial investment --- Ali, the champ more people will want to see fight than Lyle (or anyone else with the title). It's easy to overlook a fighters' safety when that's on the line. Just look at how those who, "loved Ali" Dundee, Pacheco, Brown etc. let him fight on. You can say it's Ali's decision, but they continued to be in the corner. Why? Money.

No mention of the muslim Nation of Islam, who actually kept Ali fighting on. Where else could they get a million dollars a pop?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 07 Apr 2008, 00:54

Pacheco didn't "let" Ali fight on. He told Ali and his family that Ali should quit, and when Ali didn't Pacheco left Ali's team. A lot of people wanted Ali to retire, MSG wouldn't let him fight there again after the Shavers fight, but Ali and his hangers on wanted him to continue, and he was making record purses, and so he went on.

And don't try to suggest to me that Ali was the first or last old fighter to get a break. Frazier did, Louis did, Holyfield did, etc.. The Lyle fight, however, is not an example of that. I would say it wasn't a bad stoppage, but even if one didn't agree, one could not say that it is not a subjective question that many will have different views on; its not something as clear as Lewis-Holyfield I, for example.

There must be about a thousand or more fights that had more questionable stoppages than Ali-Lyle. Holmes-Snipes was a much worse stoppage, but you never hear about that one. And I'm sure money wasn't a motivation; his fight with Cooney just happened to be next.

Difference between Ali-Lyle and Louis-Conn... Conn was a full weight class south of Louis, Louis was in his prime while Ali was 33, and Louis was not purposely giving away rounds as Ali was. The problem with going back and judging Ali's fights is that you have to recall that he didn't only consider himself a fighter, he considered himself a showman as well. So when he played around with certain opponents, its easy for someone to go back and say "Look, he struggled with Bob Foster and Ron Lyle" just because Foster was able to hit him, even though Ali was letting him (compare Ali's willingness to take a Light Heavyweight's punch to Louis getting staggered by a lighter hitting Light Heavyweight in Conn) and Lyle was ahead when the fight was stopped, forgetting that Ali went full rounds simply toying with Lyle, trying to be entertaining.

As I said earlier, maybe a 33 year old Louis gets knocked out by Lyle, so its kinda silly to be talking about how Lyle "out boxed" Ali. I had Lyle up by a couple of points, but that lead would have been diminished had he survived the round. Ali likely would have taken most/all of the championship rounds. This is simply a case of phony controversy and false scrutiny; there are dozens of fights every year in boxing that have much more questionable elements to them, and there have been great fighters who have had more difficulty with lesser opponents at younger ages than Ali had with Lyle in '75. At the end of the day, the fact is that If you take 30+ consecutive shots and the ref stops the fight, its a little hard to complain. You see fighters less hurt than that stopped every month in today's boxing world. And the idea that Ali likely wouldn't have been stopped if the situation had been reversed is not only simple presumption, but if it were true (which, in fairness, it probably is) it would not be a case of Ali being "protected", Ali was the champion, and refs often hold to the rule that the champ has to be the one to stop the fight.

Ali got two or three breaks in his career, not fifty, and no more than other fighters of his stature. As for Williams, fighters have gotten credit for beating lesser fighters with greater ailments. Look at how some people talk about Pacquiao-Morales III; as if there was nothing wrong with Morales.

As for Louis-Conn II... both fighters had declined, whether or not Conn was younger.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 07 Apr 2008, 01:36

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Brute wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote: At least Joe was never outboxed by Ron Lyle

Excuse me, I must hastily depart, as I hear the unmistakeable click of IFF's handgun
Leading on points counts for nothing if you can't stay the distance. Louis came from well behind on points to KO Lightheavyweight Billy Conn.
It means nothing? Is that why Ali fans point straight at Louis-Conn I (They don't dare discuss the rematch, where a fading, past-it Louis annihilated a still young Conn) when arguing their man was #1?

I take it we shall never again hear of Louis-Conn I then, as the result means nothing. This much, & one thing more --- there was no doubt when Louis put Conn away --- can't say the same for the Ali-Lyle stoppage.

Also, it's time the myth was put to rest --- Louis was not, "well-behind" against Conn. What happened was, Conn did far better than anyone expected, & in point of fact, was winning the fight --- this has caused many to lose all sense of reality in connection with the fight. Conn was ahead on two scorecards (fairly narrowly), & even on the third --- this was a closely-fought contest, no one dominated anyone.

It was the thirteenth round. Louis had only two rounds to get in front, Conn spoilt his chance by going for the knockout instead of staying on his bicycle. The second fight was irrevelent, Louis had been much more active in between. Goodnight, Myth Irene.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 07 Apr 2008, 01:57

Does anyone know what the scorecards were when Conn got KO'd? I know he was ahead on all three, but by how much?

And, yes, Conn was not the same in the rematch.

One other thing, because I know someone will probably make a dumb response, is that I wouldn't excuse Ali for playing around if it did him harm. I wouldn't excuse him for playing around with Frazier in the first fight, for example, but with Lyle it was no harm no foul.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Apr 2008, 04:27

"It was the thirteenth round. Louis had only two rounds to get in front, Conn spoilt his chance by going for the knockout instead of staying on his bicycle. The second fight was irrevelent, Louis had been much more active in between. Goodnight, Myth Irene." - Brute

Right. Louis was down by three through twelve. Louis didn't knock Conn out, Conn blew it. Then, Conn, "wasn't the same" in the rematch, even though Louis was the old, past-it fighter.

This isn't as selective as the things which are said of Ali? I could close with a snipe at your screenname here, but I won't.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 07 Apr 2008, 04:31

I Feel Fine wrote:Does anyone know what the scorecards were when Conn got KO'd? I know he was ahead on all three, but by how much?

And, yes, Conn was not the same in the rematch.

One other thing, because I know someone will probably make a dumb response, is that I wouldn't excuse Ali for playing around if it did him harm. I wouldn't excuse him for playing around with Frazier in the first fight, for example, but with Lyle it was no harm no foul.

One card was even, when I have more time, I might look up the official cards. It was quite close, but Conn lead on two cards. I have not been able to track down the fight in it's entirety in the past.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 08 Apr 2008, 00:04

According to boxrec Conn was leading on three cards. But they don't give the scores. I dunno.

Louis was past his prime in the Conn rematch, but just because Conn was younger that doesn't mean he wasn't also past it. Age doesn't always determine who the fresher fighter is. That doesn't imply that Conn would have won a rematch in '41, I don't think he would have.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 08 Apr 2008, 12:21

I looked for the official scorecards up to the knockout, but I couldn't find them. For what its worth, the Associated Press had Conn ahead 8-4, and UPI had Conn ahead 6-5-1 going into the 13th round.

Woller · Post by **Woller** » 08 Apr 2008, 12:41

If it´s important I can find the scorecards. If Louis won the 14th and 15th (He was winning the 13th easily) then it would have ended up with Louis winning a MD.

Woller

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 08 Apr 2008, 12:43

BoxBuzz wrote:My question was sincere....in terms of asking folks if they thought Lyle was going to pull out of the problem.

Considering the fact that he survived a Shavers KD and was hit a LOT by Shavers prior to his coming back and stopping him, I would say that Lyle had an excellent chance of surviving the Ali "onslaught".

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 08 Apr 2008, 13:38

Woller wrote:If it´s important I can find the scorecards. If Louis won the 14th and 15th (He was winning the 13th easily) then it would have ended up with Louis winning a MD.

Woller

Find them if you can, please. I've been looking all over the internet this morning, and I can't find them anywhere. I'll look tonight in a couple of files that I have at home.

I can't believe the actual scorecards weren't published someplace.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Apr 2008, 13:56

His overall performance against Lyle is one of the few legitmate criticisms that you make of him as a fighter. He was lethargic for most of the fight.

We have all seen guys hurt worse who manage to survive. We have also seen fights not hurt that badly and the ref let it continue and the fighter gets hurt badly. And of course we have all seen fighters not hurt as badly and the referee stopped it.

He finally woke up in the last round.
In some ways the 1st Louis Conn fight was similar. Louis seemed to be sleepwalking throughout most of the fight. He finally got his act together and knocked Conn out.
The fight was close enough on the judges scorecards that had Louis won the last three rounds he would have won a split decision. Most people thought Conn was ahead more than that. Was Louis getting special protection by the judges?

Both of of theseguys had long careers and weren't always every single time. However, at the end of the day is that each managed to pull out a win when they weren't at their best.
Losing to a legitimate contender like Ron Lyle isn't great, but is certainly isn't as bad as for the a heavyweight champion to be to losing to Billy Conn. He was even hurt a couple of times by a lightheavyweight who wasn't known for being a hard puncher.

Imagine if he would have this much trouble against Bob Foster? We would hearing about it on this forum on almost daily basis.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Apr 2008, 16:55

The Great John L wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:My question was sincere....in terms of asking folks if they thought Lyle was going to pull out of the problem.
Considering the fact that he survived a Shavers KD and was hit a LOT by Shavers prior to his coming back and stopping him, I would say that Lyle had an excellent chance of surviving the Ali "onslaught".

It's possible....but I have to say the continued beating might have been worse than a KO. It seemed he was paying a pretty big price toward the end. As I review it again it does not seem to be a terrible call by the ref. It appears to be fair and Lyle was responsible for showing something to the ref.

But I understand the complaint nevertheless.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 08 Apr 2008, 18:19

I certainly don't consider it a terrible stoppage, but do think it wasn't really justified. Lyle had a very well known track record of being able to survive hammerings and come firing back, and Ali was hardly the same type of puncher as some of the guys Lyle went to war with in his career. Ali was in much worse shape in the 11th against Frazier and Mercante never looked close to stopping it, even though Frazier was a very dangerous offensive fighter. certainly more so than the well past his best Ali that fought Lyle.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 08 Apr 2008, 19:23

Woller wrote:If it´s important I can find the scorecards. If Louis won the 14th and 15th (He was winning the 13th easily) then it would have ended up with Louis winning a MD.

Woller

Thanks. That's what I suspected, but I wasn't sure. Conn really didn't pick it up until maybe the middle rounds.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Apr 2008, 10:55

The Great John L wrote:I certainly don't consider it a terrible stoppage, but do think it wasn't really justified. Lyle had a very well known track record of being able to survive hammerings and come firing back, and Ali was hardly the same type of puncher as some of the guys Lyle went to war with in his career. Ali was in much worse shape in the 11th against Frazier and Mercante never looked close to stopping it, even though Frazier was a very dangerous offensive fighter. certainly more so than the well past his best Ali that fought Lyle.

I guess that's how I see it too.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 11 Apr 2008, 19:11

Ezzard wrote:
The Great John L wrote:I certainly don't consider it a terrible stoppage, but do think it wasn't really justified. Lyle had a very well known track record of being able to survive hammerings and come firing back, and Ali was hardly the same type of puncher as some of the guys Lyle went to war with in his career. Ali was in much worse shape in the 11th against Frazier and Mercante never looked close to stopping it, even though Frazier was a very dangerous offensive fighter. certainly more so than the well past his best Ali that fought Lyle.
I guess that's how I see it too.

As a referee it's got to be hard to know just when to make that decision... I just can't see any conspiratorial aspects in any empirical way....just a decision that works for some and not for others.

I have placed in bold the only words in your statement that don't ring true for me. I just went back and reviewed the two moments that you are speaking of and Lyle seems to be in fundamentally worse shape than Ali was at the time you mention here.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Apr 2008, 21:18

Referees are going to be less inclined to stop the big fights or stop the big names. This is not in any way exclusive to Ali. Look how many times Frazier had to go down before the Foreman fight was stopped. Still, Ali moved, held, threw some punches... Lyle just stood there taking shots. He had no way of protecting himself. That's also the difference.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 11 Apr 2008, 22:03

granberry wrote:
silkov wrote:
Lyle was out on his feet against Ali just like he was against Foreman... watch the fight...
What are you selling?

The Foreman-Lyle fight was NOT a title fight,

and it went on until it ended in a TEN COUNT.

The Ali-Lyle fight was a TITLE fight, Lyle was WAY ahead on points,

and the ref stopped it in Ali's favor with NO knockdowns and no count.

Lyle was 6 points ahead on one card and one point ahead on another. The other judge had it even.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 17 Apr 2008, 17:41

Before Williams was shot late November 1964 reportly drunk and still struggling for the officer's gun even with a .357 magnum bullet in his lower abdomen,Williams was scheduled to fight Ernie Terrell for the WBA heavyweight belt in January 1965.
That fight was cancelled of course,but probably had something to do with fighting Ali later.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 17 Apr 2008, 17:53

Brutu wrote:Before Williams was shot late November 1964 reportly drunk and still struggling for the officer's gun even with a .357 magnum bullet in his lower abdomen,Williams was scheduled to fight Ernie Terrell for the WBA heavyweight belt in January 1965.
That fight was cancelled of course,but probably had something to do with fighting Ali later.

I never believe the police version of such an incident.

They (police) have been proven to lie too many times to count.

The policeman was scared to death of Cleveland Williams because Williams was a big strong guy and towered over him.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Apr 2008, 20:56

Criminals never lie, in court or anywhere else, & have a proven track record of honesty & integrity.

LOL

.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 18 Apr 2008, 08:11

granberry wrote:
Brutu wrote:Before Williams was shot late November 1964 reportly drunk and still struggling for the officer's gun even with a .357 magnum bullet in his lower abdomen,Williams was scheduled to fight Ernie Terrell for the WBA heavyweight belt in January 1965.
That fight was cancelled of course,but probably had something to do with fighting Ali later.
I never believe the police version of such an incident.

They (police) have been proven to lie too many times to count.

The policeman was scared to death of Cleveland Williams because Williams was a big strong guy and towered over him.

..Williams, however, gave the Policeman who shot him tickets to the Ali fight. Seems he had no hard feelings towards him.