Warren sticking the knife in on Witter

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Feb 2004, 11:50

Apparently, in an audio on allegedly's website at the moment, the promoter can be heard slagging off Junior Witter, claiming the fighter cried off the scheduled fight with Pinto...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2004, 12:01

Well, it's looking more and more like an imminent split to me...I think the writing has been on the wall since Witter and the Ingle's turned on Frank and publicly slagged him off. Don't bite the hand that feed's you and all that.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 17 Feb 2004, 12:11

I'm with Frank on this one.

Witter has an inflated view of his own worth, gets offered a fight that could propel him straight into the mix with the top men and pulls out.

The injury was a fake, Witter cried off IMO.

Kieran · Post by **Kieran** » 17 Feb 2004, 12:21

Hang on a second, James.
It's about time that Promotors in general were challenged by fighters, and their Managers / Trainers.
You are accepting one side of the story which is dangerous.
You say bite the hand that feeds.
Doesn't that also apply to Warren ?
Let's face it, without fighters he has no product.
If a Promotor makes a contractual promise, and does not deliver, doesn't a fighter have a right to challenge the Promotor ?
Let me stress that this is not a criticism of Warren.
My comments apply to all Promotors.
Hatton very nearly left Warren last year - it's one of those so called confidential matters that everyone seems to know.
If Warren was to sign up Eastman, due to failings on Hennessey's part, what's wrong with that ?
Ultimately, at last we have competition at Promotor level, and the beneficiaries will be the fighters first, and the punters second.
Bring it on.
We only need the BBBC to get its act together and make sure certain fights that we all crave take place, regardless of Promotional issues and we could get somewhere.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 17 Feb 2004, 12:31

[quote="Kieran"]Hang on a second, James.
Doesn't that also apply to Warren ?
Let's face it, without fighters he has no product.

Ok, Let Witter promote the shows then.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2004, 12:55

Of course anyone has a right to challenge their promoter, however, it should come as no surprise to them that if they do it publicly and cause them consternation, not only will they get an earful in return, but they won't exactly be flavour of the month.

The timing of Witters pulling out of his last bout certainly caused most people to have doubts, the impression I got was that Witter could have fought on had he chosen to, perhaps he made the right decision not fighting carrying an injury, but he lost an opportunity to get some big name recognition, and pissed allegedly off even more into the bargain.

I am all for boxers being promotional free agents if they so wish, but the truth is most fighters don't have the time, inclination or the nous to promote themselves. Audley is the exception, and we have yet to see how his promotional activities will hamper his progress as a fighter, which they may.

It's the same in any business, agents and promoters are there because there is a need for them, as most people just are not business minded to manage their promotional affairs. There is countless talent out there in many fields of entertainment who never got a chance to shine, because they never got themselves an agent.

Look at Bernard Hopkins, great fighter, shite businessman, should have made 10 times the money he has, his principle has cost him big time, because he overvalues himself.

I am not saying that Witter shouldn't have said what he said, all I am pointing out is that Witter should have expected a backlash, I am sure it's not all cherry bakewells and pink gin working with allegedly, but let's face it every promoter is in it for the bucks, and if you don't create much excitement, you don't get the star treatment.

I am not laying the blame for it all at Witter's feet, nor at Warren's, these matters are very rarely as cut and dried as they seem.

Whilst on one hand you could argue that Witter has been held back by allegedly, allegedly could probably counter that by saying that Witter just didn't have that star potential. Witter isn't exactly the type who endears himself to crowds and isn't very charismatic, he's a little bit too flash without having the panache to carry it off, and basically as far as I can tell has never really had a big following.

Sadly the sport is not about talent alone, and whilst I believe Witter to be a talented fighter, you need to be marketable too.

I could of course be proven wrong, if Witter signs with someone else and they repackage him into a star turn, but I have my doubts.

J · Post by J » 17 Feb 2004, 12:59

I personally think that witter after his appaling show against Juadah where he basically bottled , then spent all his time calling out Hatton when that was never going to happen, then again withdrew from the Pinto fight, basically blew his cookies in that moment. Its not just the criticism of the promoter but the dubious marks against his name at key times in his career. I fear he only has himself to blame.
But hey Im a hatton fan so could be biased.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2004, 13:05

Sadly, the Judah fight is a spectre that Witter has never exorcised from his career. Jay Larkin was heard to vow that he would never ever have him on a showtime bill again after that, and he's stuck to his word thus far as Witters fights haven't featured on shobox, even when he was on the undercard of a hatton bill.

Witter became a little fixated with Hatton I feel, but right now Witter isn't even a big enough name to bother with, if I were Hatton, I don't think I would fight him either. Hatton is too big a star now to waste time with 'bragging rights' type fights.

Why should hatton worry about being the biggest fish in the British pond when he's now widely regarded as one of the top 5 in the world in his division.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 17 Feb 2004, 13:08

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Look at Bernard Hopkins, great fighter, shite businessman, should have made 10 times the money he has, his principle has cost him big time, because he overvalues himself.

Not sure I agree about Hopkins, James. Last I saw he's still the undisputed middleweight champion and performing as brilliantly as he ever has, even with the inactivity. He has to have made a lot of money what with nearly 20 title defences, and he's still got Oscar De La Hoya to look forward to.

Sure he could jump up weight divisions but that could end in disaster. Fighting the Golden Boy is the safest fight and for by far the most money. That's good business sense if you ask me. And Oscar will want to fight for the middleweight title before he retires.

J · Post by J » 17 Feb 2004, 13:12

agree with you Kilburn he is a the don mate, the guy never rests not even on xmas day for years and years, I mean you cant do that when you are 39 at the lower weights too unless you are a consumate pro. Whic hopkins is, I saw HJopkins fight the french guy in his defence beofre that too, that was even more impressive albeit against a much more limited fighter.

As for Hatton agree James, Ricky is now top five has Pinto been confirmed ? only ask as I would like to see Ricky fight him and will be there 3 rows back! I cant wait its the first big fight Ive been to as I have only got to the york hall on previous occasions. Wishing away march already lol!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2004, 16:12

Hopkins has made very little money for his skills. Had he been promoted right he could still have been champion all that time

Hopkins has allowed fights with Jones and Toney to fall through because he made unreasonable demands, when the fact is Hopkins isn't and never has been a draw.

When he beat Trinidad, he should have made a fortune in his next few fights, instead he fights Morade Hakkar and

The fight with DLH hasn't materialised, and probably never will, because once again Nard will negotiatie his way out of it by demanding pay parity with

Bernard got a measly sum for facing Hakkar, I remember being amazed at how little he was making.

Look at the money Hamed made in his career, which was half as long as Bernards and he had far fewer title defences

I will guarantee that no way has Bernard made as much money as Hamed. Say what you like, but without Warren, or some other big name promoter no way would Hamed have made so much, and his career turned to shit once he had his family running things for him.

Ask yourselves this, before the Trinidad fight, how many of Bernard's fights had you seen, how often was his name mentioned....answer to both questions, fornicate all, why? because there was nobody putting his name forward and moving him right.

How much did he get for the Joppy fight, a million dollars max I would have though? How much in total since beating Trinidad, 2-3 million tops, and I doubt it was that much, great money for you or me, dogshit money when you're undisputed champion and you beat the shit out of Tito.

As I said, Bernard Hopkins, great fighter, shite businessman.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 17 Feb 2004, 19:27

I agree with everything you said James, Hopkins could have made loads more money than he has, there are fighters way less as talented or fitness dedicated who have made a lot more than him through his crap businessmanship.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2004, 21:00

Amen, that's why there are fighters, manager and promoters, it's very hard to do it all yourself, and takes abilities you don't learn in a boxing gymnasium.

J · Post by J » 18 Feb 2004, 04:53

totally agree but prefer to comment on boxing skills not business acumen , I do that for a living haha no offence all.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 18 Feb 2004, 06:13

C'mon guys, it's not as simple as Hopkins just not being promoted properly. Look at the way he fights - chin stuck to his chest, rarely allows himself to be caught with a solid punch, never get's backed into a corner. Then you've got the fact he's not a devastating hitter. He's also one of the ugliest fighters out there. When you've got too many negatives around you there aint going to be masses of people coming out to watch you fight no matter what your official status.

Of course Naz has earnt more than Hopkins (so far at least), one fighter only ever brought excitment and glamour to boxing, the other does anything but. But then it's worth remembering Hamed is washed up and retired while Hopkins is a true undisputed champ at the top of his game with a huge payday against De La Hoya to look forward to.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Feb 2004, 06:42

People are talking as if the Hopkins v DLH fight is a done deal, it's anything but, you think either of those two is going to back down in negotiations, I very much doubt it.

Oscar will offer Hopkins 25% of the purse, same as he's offering Mosley for a rematch, even though Mosley got the decision and is the one with belts.

Sure, Hopkins hasn't exactly got the most crowd pleasing style, however, I am sure Don King could have promoted him a hell of a lot better than he's promoted himself.

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 18 Feb 2004, 06:46

It is a known fact in the game that Hopkins has talked himself out of big money fights etc...

He has promoted himself terribly and has lost x amount because of it.

He endsup fighting for peanuts and although he has done well and achieved a fair bit he will look back on the money he could have made with regret.

Don King could have earnt him 3-4 x the amount he has earned.

HH

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Feb 2004, 06:53

The Hopkins and Toney fights combined would have made him in the region of 7-10 million, but what does Hopkins do, he goes and fights, Hakkar, Carl Daniels and Joppy, for a total which is less than he would have got for fighting either Toney or Jones.......real smart.....

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 18 Feb 2004, 06:54

Can I just ask - what were the fights Hopkins should have had in 2001/2 straight after the win over Trinidad? And how much would he, as a King fighter, have been paid for them? I'm very intrigued to know as I'm unaware of the exact details..

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 18 Feb 2004, 07:00

jamesmcdonnell wrote:The Hopkins and Toney fights combined would have made him in the region of 7-10 million, but what does Hopkins do, he goes and fights, Hakkar, Carl Daniels and Joppy, for a total which is less than he would have got for fighting either Toney or Jones.......real smart.....

Hopkins would have been a big underdog against Jones or Toney who are much bigger than him physically.

If he ends up fighting DLH this year (as i think he will) he will be fighting a man who is only 5 or 7 lbs natrually smaller than him. Hopkins will get about 10 million for this fight and will be a favorite to win.

If Hopkins gerts 10m and beats DLH, he's been the smart one and will be laughing all the way to the bank.

I think the jury is still out as to whether he has been smart or not.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Feb 2004, 07:03

Hang on though, it was Hopkins who called both of them out, going on about how he could do what Jones did, and that he would have beaten Ruiz....

Yes DLH is naturally smaller, he is also the draw in the equation, and will demand the majority of the purse....let's see how Bernard reacts...

J · Post by J » 18 Feb 2004, 07:03

as a boxer he has been in my view ugly or not, the consumate pro, guy is awesome ands I have nothing but admiration for his dedication and to be as good as he is at his age is just awesome. As a businessman, I can understand he has talked himslef out of many big fights but aint our Joe C done the same for the past 5 years....in my view yes.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 18 Feb 2004, 07:04

Up until 10 months ago nobody gave a shit about Toney, then he gets a very good win and Hopkins is supposed to just pile on 2 stone and rush up to cruiserweight to take him on? It would have been an interesting match up but a foolish one for such a finely tuned, professional athlete as Hopkins.

A Jones rematch was not a fight Hopkins could win, and again he'd be moving up in weight.

Right now he's got the De La Hoya fight on the horizon, followed by another potential blockbuster in Trinidad. Like KO Artist says, lets wait until the champ has actually hung up his gloves before deciding how stupidly he's conducted himself.

J · Post by J » 18 Feb 2004, 07:16

totally agree same thing bout JC and warren calling him out., I mean why is gonna move up weights to fight a WBO champ at his weight (cos JC cant drop to middle) in Wales when he is undisputed middle weight champ of the world.
Thats not being a stupid businessman its just bloody sense. and though this may cause consternation amongst some of you I have hopkins top of my p4p list. On boxing merit only and I know the RJJ fans will go crackers but recent perfomances to me prove that Hopkins is still top of his game at 39, united the belts and not hopped weights. For nearly ten years, to quote the fast show "thats amazing!"

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 18 Feb 2004, 07:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes DLH is naturally smaller, he is also the draw in the equation, and will demand the majority of the purse....let's see how Bernard reacts...

I have a feeling Hopkins will give ground to an extent, as he did do in order to win the middleweight tournament. He knew Tito was the big name, the guy who was supposed to win it. Although I wonder what the general feeling will be in America about De La Hoya's chances against Hopkins.

Hopkins has the title here though, so if Oscar truly wants to fight for it Bernard will have to be something close to happy at the negotiating table.