Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 09 Apr 2008, 05:04

Yeah, I think Marciano would catch Robinson and break a couple of his ribs...

Rocky wins by KO round 5/6/7, I predict...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 09 Apr 2008, 16:07

This thread by bjermaine is a prime illustration of the stupidity and cluelessness characteristic of 'boxing' site posters.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 Apr 2008, 16:19

HomicideHenry wrote:
i wouldn't pick sugar ray to win either fight but for anyone to write that he would have had no chance at all against patterson or marciano is not true imo.
He would have had a chance, yes, but it would have been slim or none. Robinson always said LaMotta was his toughest opponent, now just imagine LaMotta being about 20 pounds heavier, even tougher, better conditioned and hitting much, much harder...then that would be Marciano, and around 1952, if one didn't take the time to really look right, by this time Robinson had just reached his 'peak' as the year before he done stopped LaMotta in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre...there never was a better Ray Robinson as a middleweight after that night, though he would have many, many great fights after that.

Marciano had just done beaten Walcott twice, and had yet to face Charles and Cockell and the ageless wonder in Archie Moore...the only comparison I could ever make, is a Robinson-Marciano bout would have been similar to the Moore bout, because Archie was a former middleweight [so was Charles but for all intents and purposes Moore still had it as a fighter, while Charles rapidly declined after losing the title]...only difference is, I see Robinson hitting the canvas more often and the fight being over in 6 rounds.

He schooled Joey Maxim, sure, and could have been the 175 pound champ, but let's face it, nobody hit harder than Marciano until the coming of Liston and later Foreman, and it can be argued that The Rock was on par with them as well.

Marciano's non-stop punching, the work rate he had, the conditioning and the power...I just dont see Ray being able to take that kind of pressure or punishment for too long, even if he was at his peak.

I'm pretty confident he'd have no chance. Robinson at his peak was a welterweight and a small middleweight. If he were fighting today (the mid 50s version) he'd be at Junior Middleweight and not 160. Imagine Oscar De la Hoya vs David Haye . . .

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 09 Apr 2008, 16:52

Like I said, it would be slim and none, if there was a chance for Robinson, and it be more than likely slim would have walked out the door.

It isn't entirely impossible, as history has shown much smaller men have gone on to defeat bigger men. Think Mickey Walker and how he outpointed Jack Sharkey, but wasn't given the decision. Or think, also, of Walker taking on Bearcat Wright. Jimmy Wilde as a young man in Wales was known for knocking out grown men twice his size when working in a traveling circus. Charlie Mitchell was a middleweight for all intents and purposes and he gave John L. Sullivan, who was bigger than Marciano, fits in the ring.

It isn't out of the relm of possibility, but I just think the match-up is all wrong for Robinson. Guys who came at him, who didn't retreat and stop their attacks, with great conditioning and strength, always gave him problems; LaMotta and Fullmer proved that, though Fullmer was around when Robinson was going down hill in his career.

The difference is, the work rate Marciano had was alot like a middleweight averaging 80-85 punches a round, sometimes throwing over 100. Plus, the power Robinson would be facing wouldn't be power from someone at 160 or 175, it would be heavyweight power and even Marciano's greatest skeptics can't deny that he was amazingly strong for no bigger than he was. He was the greatest conditioned heavyweight of the 'modern era', and he was also one of the gamest and toughest fighters that ever lived.

I think it would have been just too tough an assignment for Robinson, but I am a firm believer that ANY fighter from ANY weight class, can defeat certain fighters at heavier weights [mind you I said certain fighters, not all].

A great example of that is when Jones moved up to Heavyweight and fought John Ruiz, the most limited of the belt holders. Jones had some tough moments in that fight [recall the first round, for example], and one could imagine what a Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, let alone Lennox Lewis would have done to him. Jones played it smart, as his heavyweight debut was just for one fight only.

Michael Spinks showed he could only defeat a few certain heavies, he ducked Tony Tucker for Gerry Cooney, faced off with Swedish heavy Steffen Tangstad [sorry for any errors] and rematched the aging Larry Holmes in a fight many thought the former champion actually won. But when he went up against a legit heavyweight in Mike Tyson, he was blown away inside the first round [91 seconds].

See what I mean? If Robinson was to turn heavyweight, he could have beaten a select few, not the main guys. He could have possibly beaten guys like Earl Walls or maybe guys along the lines of Kid Matthews and veterans like Lee Savold, but it wouldn't have been by knockouts or anything impressive. It would have all been decision victories, and probably close ones.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 09 Apr 2008, 17:39

Tangstad was Norwegian, not Swedish. Had he been Swedish, he would have defeated Spinks.

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 09 Apr 2008, 17:45

I DON'T think Robinson would have beat any of those HW's mentioned.

Mathews was a L-HW for one, and a damn good one, the era in general was much better than we sometimes have to be re-reminded about... I think Robinson would have out boxed 'numerous' journeymen HW's & fringe contenders then, but Not the Top lads.

Nor even the TOP L-HWs.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 Apr 2008, 18:00

HomicideHenry wrote:Like I said, it would be slim and none, if there was a chance for Robinson, and it be more than likely slim would have walked out the door.

It isn't entirely impossible, as history has shown much smaller men have gone on to defeat bigger men. Think Mickey Walker and how he outpointed Jack Sharkey, but wasn't given the decision. Or think, also, of Walker taking on Bearcat Wright. Jimmy Wilde as a young man in Wales was known for knocking out grown men twice his size when working in a traveling circus. Charlie Mitchell was a middleweight for all intents and purposes and he gave John L. Sullivan, who was bigger than Marciano, fits in the ring.

It isn't out of the relm of possibility, but I just think the match-up is all wrong for Robinson. Guys who came at him, who didn't retreat and stop their attacks, with great conditioning and strength, always gave him problems; LaMotta and Fullmer proved that, though Fullmer was around when Robinson was going down hill in his career.

The difference is, the work rate Marciano had was alot like a middleweight averaging 80-85 punches a round, sometimes throwing over 100. Plus, the power Robinson would be facing wouldn't be power from someone at 160 or 175, it would be heavyweight power and even Marciano's greatest skeptics can't deny that he was amazingly strong for no bigger than he was. He was the greatest conditioned heavyweight of the 'modern era', and he was also one of the gamest and toughest fighters that ever lived.

I think it would have been just too tough an assignment for Robinson, but I am a firm believer that ANY fighter from ANY weight class, can defeat certain fighters at heavier weights [mind you I said certain fighters, not all].

A great example of that is when Jones moved up to Heavyweight and fought John Ruiz, the most limited of the belt holders. Jones had some tough moments in that fight [recall the first round, for example], and one could imagine what a Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, let alone Lennox Lewis would have done to him. Jones played it smart, as his heavyweight debut was just for one fight only.

Michael Spinks showed he could only defeat a few certain heavies, he ducked Tony Tucker for Gerry Cooney, faced off with Swedish heavy Steffen Tangstad [sorry for any errors] and rematched the aging Larry Holmes in a fight many thought the former champion actually won. But when he went up against a legit heavyweight in Mike Tyson, he was blown away inside the first round [91 seconds].

See what I mean? If Robinson was to turn heavyweight, he could have beaten a select few, not the main guys. He could have possibly beaten guys like Earl Walls or maybe guys along the lines of Kid Matthews and veterans like Lee Savold, but it wouldn't have been by knockouts or anything impressive. It would have all been decision victories, and probably close ones.

Robinson was much smaller than Spinks, Jones, and even Walker. Spinks and Jones were light HWs. Walker started at welter but grew into a well muscled, compact super middleweight at 168-170 lbs. Robinson at his middleweight peak (and vs Maxim) was 157 lbs. Light HWs and (truly all-time great) super middleweights can have some success vs Heavyweights.

Welterweights and small middles . . .the size difference is just too great.

On a side-note, Jones never had any "tough moments" vs Ruiz . . .he arguably lost a close first round, and the rest of the fight was one of the easiest of his career. I think that Jones could have also beaten the 2003 versions of Tyson and Holyfield, and maybe even the out of shape Lewis that fought Vitali. But alas, such is much of Roy's career . . .coulda woulda shouldas.

bjermaine · Post by **bjermaine** » 09 Apr 2008, 19:41

granberry wrote:This thread by bjermaine is a prime illustration of the stupidity and cluelessness characteristic of 'boxing' site posters.

yes, this from the guy that tries to prove that doug jones was really better than muhammad ali. granberry, everytime you post something against me, it gives my points more validity. you do understand that you are the biggest joke on this board? i write a thread asking about how a middleweight champ, who most say is the best pound for pound all-time, would have fared against the heavyweight champ of that era and you say it's stupid and clueless. i'm willing to bet that if the colors of the two fighters were switched you would have a different opinion on things.

btw, do you notice how granberry just posts on the boxers of the past board. you never see him on the current scene. that's because he doesn't have to pick or talk about a fight that's going to actually happen.

bjermaine · Post by **bjermaine** » 09 Apr 2008, 19:43

I Feel Fine wrote:He could not beat him? He was two rounds away. On a different night he becomes three division champion.

As for Ray's chances against Rocky... Charles was on his way down but he still had something left and he couldn't beat Rocky. Ray's not gonna do it. And he was coming off his series with Basilio when the proposal to fight Patterson came up. I think that speaks for itself.

As for bj... well, yes, you did mock people who didn't think Robinson was overrated. But the point I made was that you've made a 180 on that, because in this thread you seem to be overrating Robinson more than most of Robinson's fans would. You've made such a reverse that I almost thought this thread was meant to mock people who rank Robinson highly, but it seems you are serious, which makes the thread that much stranger.

the only reason i "mocked" that guy is that he called me an idiot and had a shitty argument to try and back it up. it had nothing to do with robinson. i hope this explanation is satisfactory to you.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 09 Apr 2008, 21:29

bjermaine wrote:
granberry wrote:This thread by bjermaine is a prime illustration of the stupidity and cluelessness characteristic of 'boxing' site posters.
yes, this from the guy that tries to prove that doug jones was really better than muhammad ali. granberry, everytime you post something against me, it gives my points more validity. you do understand that you are the biggest joke on this board? i write a thread asking about how a middleweight champ, who most say is the best pound for pound all-time, would have fared against the heavyweight champ of that era and you say it's stupid and clueless. i'm willing to bet that if the colors of the two fighters were switched you would have a different opinion on things.

btw, do you notice how granberry just posts on the boxers of the past board. you never see him on the current scene. that's because he doesn't have to pick or talk about a fight that's going to actually happen.

Extreme low mentality posters like bjermain cannot deal with the real world.

In the real world world Robinson fought 175 pounder Joey Maxim and found he did not have a knockout punch when fighting a good lightheavyweight like Maxim.

Robinson tried to throw groups of his most vicious punches and could not hurt Maxim. As Robinson would step away after one of his flurries, he repeatedly got hit by Maxim's left hook, which was a punch Maxim threw very easily and naturally. Robinson did not expect to get hit at that distance, but Maxim was tall and long armed compared with any middleweight, and Robinson never corrected his problem of getting hit with that punch as he stepped away.

In the 2nd to last round Robinson got clobbered and hurt badly by that punch from Maxim.

Maxim was not considered a big hitter as a lightheavy, but he hurt Robinson. Robinson punched himself out against Maxim, and found his had no KO punch versus a lightheavyweight.

That's what happened in the real world.

Notice Robinson never went near another lightheavyweight again. He had learned his lesson.

Now slow-witted bjermaine, completely unaware of Robinson's disaster against lightheavyweight Maxim, offers this ALL TIME winner--a disgusting example of total cluelessness when it comes to the subject.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 09 Apr 2008, 21:53

granberry wrote:Now slow-witted bjermaine, completely unaware of Robinson's disaster against lightheavyweight Maxim, offers this ALL TIME winner--a disgusting example of total cluelessness when it comes to the subject.

It's still nowhere near as good as your half-witted claim that a southpaw throwing a left hook would punch himself in the face.

That is up there with some of the things your boy Elma has written. You and Elma both exhibit the same traits of arrogance and ignorance combined. Jimbo must be training you both.

And you expect us to believe your claim that pro boxers were interested in your tips on boxing technicalities?

Hilarious!

LOL
.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 09 Apr 2008, 22:17

The poisonous feminine snake of boxrec doesn't know that Robinson fought Joey Maxim either.

And of course Mr. Snake doesn't know what a southpaw stance or a hook is.

LOL

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Apr 2008, 23:07

Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 09 Apr 2008, 23:18

I agree with I Feel Fine (the scoring, after all was 10-3, 9-3-1, and 7-3-3 for Robinson after thirteen) . . . except I doubt the discussion is over.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 10 Apr 2008, 01:26

I remember Rocky Marciano visiting Australia in the 1960s. Asked if he ever considered a comeback he said "Only once. There was a fighter named Floyd Patterson who became Heavyweight Champion, and I thought he was only a light heavyweight."

From memory the thought of Mrs Marciano leaving him decided Rocky against the comeback.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 10 Apr 2008, 01:35

I Feel Fine wrote:Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Sugar Ray did not fight for two and a half years after the Maxim fight. It must have taken a hell of a lot out of him. The heat must have been severe, the referee had to be replaced.

Keep in mind that Ray had lost the title to Turpin and won it back not long before the Maxim fight. He was still a great fighter, but not as good as he had been.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 10 Apr 2008, 02:40

Robinson's son said it took Ray six months to recover. He apparently had welts or something covering his body from the heat, and had trouble retaining food. He was clearly a mess. And, as you say, he wasn't even the first one to suffer from the heat. Manila was very hot, but at least the ref didn't have to be replaced because of it.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 10 Apr 2008, 03:04

I Feel Fine wrote:Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Robinson learned he had no KO punch against a good 175 pounder.

That's why he never fought a lightheavyweight again.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 10 Apr 2008, 03:05

I Feel Fine wrote:Robinson's son said it took Ray six months to recover. He apparently had welts or something covering his body from the heat, and had trouble retaining food. He was clearly a mess. And, as you say, he wasn't even the first one to suffer from the heat. Manila was very hot, but at least the ref didn't have to be replaced because of it.

Apparently Maxim had air conditioning in the same fight.

LOL

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 10 Apr 2008, 03:20

Archie Moore, maybe the greatest Light Heavyweight champion, couldn't stop Maxim. I guess he wasn't a Light Heavyweight puncher then. Ezzard Charles, the greatest Light Heavyweight of all time, belt or no belt, couldn't stop Maxim. I guess he couldn't punch at Light Heavyweight either. Along with Charles, two other one time Heavyweight champions could not stop Maxim. I guess they should have simply retired.

Robinson did hurt Maxim at one point. If he had been in with a different Light Heavyweight, maybe he does score a stoppage.

Maxim was the only one in the ring who was there from the opening bell who didn't have a heat stroke. And if one wanted to say that was to his credit, thats fine, even if it was probably only because he wasn't doing anything. But the idea that Robinson was incapable of beating him is a delusion. It was one of the hottest nights in the recorded history of New York, and on a different night Robinson takes the Light Heavyweight title with greater ease than he took the Welterweight and Middleweight titles. Maxim did not give him the fight that Bell and LaMotta did.

Again, people are simply reaching for reasons to try to justify Maxim's win. He did win, but it fell into his lap more than anything else.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 10 Apr 2008, 03:27

Give it up.

Robinson learned his lesson and never fought another lightheavyweight again.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 10 Apr 2008, 03:36

Nah, he just fought Bobo Olson again, instead. Olson, after all, beat Maxim twice... while Robinson splattered Olson, KO'd him three times in four fights. Light Heavyweight Maxim didn't have Ray's punch, I guess.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Apr 2008, 09:24

I Feel Fine wrote:Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Trying hard to validate Maxim's win??? It doesn't need to be validated, he won the fight!!!

To say that Maxim shouldn't be given much credit for 'lasting through the heat' is absurd. It's the same ridiculous argument people make regarding fights like Klitschko-Purrity. A FUNDAMENTAL PART of boxing is pacing yourself. Maxim did fight hard throughout the bout. Yes he didn't use as much movement as Robinson . . .well maybe if Ray was so strong why didn't he just fight the bigger man more flat-footed?? And why would you be doing so much running around in such excessive heat? According to you, Robinson was beating on Maxim for 10 rounds, but at the same time Maxim was able to conserve energy b/c he was "doing nothing" . . taking a good amount of punches to the body and head should wear you out in itself. The excuse train running here is prety ridiculous.

Maxim won, because on that night he was the better fighter in the ring and he wore out the smaller man. Period. End of story.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 10 Apr 2008, 10:21

I Feel Fine wrote:Nah, he just fought Bobo Olson again, instead. Olson, after all, beat Maxim twice... while Robinson splattered Olson, KO'd him three times in four fights. Light Heavyweight Maxim didn't have Ray's punch, I guess.

Juvenile gibberish.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 10 Apr 2008, 10:33

granberry wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.
Robinson learned he had no KO punch against a good 175 pounder.

That's why he never fought a lightheavyweight again.

Either that, or he got busy winning the world middleweight title three more times with very lucerative paydays.

Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952