Rocky Marciano vs. Ray Robinson - 1952

[raylawpc]

Nah, he just fought Bobo Olson again, instead. Olson, after all, beat Maxim twice... while Robinson splattered Olson, KO'd him three times in four fights. Light Heavyweight Maxim didn't have Ray's punch, I guess.

Juvenile gibberish.

How is that gibberish? What did I Feel Fine say that was incorrect?

[raylawpc]

Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Trying hard to validate Maxim's win??? It doesn't need to be validated, he won the fight!!!

To say that Maxim shouldn't be given much credit for 'lasting through the heat' is absurd. It's the same ridiculous argument people make regarding fights like Klitschko-Purrity. A FUNDAMENTAL PART of boxing is pacing yourself. Maxim did fight hard throughout the bout. Yes he didn't use as much movement as Robinson . . .well maybe if Ray was so strong why didn't he just fight the bigger man more flat-footed?? And why would you be doing so much running around in such excessive heat? According to you, Robinson was beating on Maxim for 10 rounds, but at the same time Maxim was able to conserve energy b/c he was "doing nothing" . . taking a good amount of punches to the body and head should wear you out in itself. The excuse train running here is prety ridiculous.

Maxim won, because on that night he was the better fighter in the ring and he wore out the smaller man. Period. End of story.

You are right. Maxim won the fight. He deserves a great deal of credit for surviving the heat and outlasting Ray to pick up the win. It was a gutsy performance by Maxim, I believe.

The question, however, is whether you think he could have done it had the temperature outside been 75 or 80 degrees that night?

[dempseyfire]

Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Trying hard to validate Maxim's win??? It doesn't need to be validated, he won the fight!!!

To say that Maxim shouldn't be given much credit for 'lasting through the heat' is absurd. It's the same ridiculous argument people make regarding fights like Klitschko-Purrity. A FUNDAMENTAL PART of boxing is pacing yourself. Maxim did fight hard throughout the bout. Yes he didn't use as much movement as Robinson . . .well maybe if Ray was so strong why didn't he just fight the bigger man more flat-footed?? And why would you be doing so much running around in such excessive heat? According to you, Robinson was beating on Maxim for 10 rounds, but at the same time Maxim was able to conserve energy b/c he was "doing nothing" . . taking a good amount of punches to the body and head should wear you out in itself. The excuse train running here is prety ridiculous.

Maxim won, because on that night he was the better fighter in the ring and he wore out the smaller man. Period. End of story.

You are right. Maxim won the fight. He deserves a great deal of credit for surviving the heat and outlasting Ray to pick up the win. It was a gutsy performance by Maxim, I believe.

The question, however, is whether you think he could have done it had the temperature outside been 75 or 80 degrees that night?

Maybe, maybe not. It's really impossible to know. So much folklore is maintained surrounding certain fights. Like if Billy Conn had decided to "box" Louis in last 3 rounds he would've automatically won the fight . . .who knows if Louis couldn't have rallied for a KO in the 14th or 15th??

I'm sure Robinson fought in very hot conditions in his hundreds of fights in his career, but no collapse at any other point. Why? I think Maxim's 20 lb edge in weight and pressure tired Robinson out as much as the heat.

If Robinson is facing say Graziano that night instead of Maxim, does he collapse there too?

[HomicideHenry]

I remember Rocky Marciano visiting Australia in the 1960s. Asked if he ever considered a comeback he said "Only once. There was a fighter named Floyd Patterson who became Heavyweight Champion, and I thought he was only a light heavyweight."

From memory the thought of Mrs Marciano leaving him decided Rocky against the comeback.

Marciano was also considering a match with Johansson, and supposedly was also given an offer from Sonny Liston's camp to fight him as well. As far as Patterson is concerned, my favorite quote on the whole situation was when he (Marciano) was asked by kids in Brockton whether he could beat Patterson or not:

"If I said I'd beat him, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, then I'd be lying."

[granberry]

Maxim won the fight. . . .

The question, however, is whether you think he could have done it had the temperature outside been 75 or 80 degrees that night?

Robinson wasn't interested in finding out.

He never went near another lightheavyweight.

And that is a 'fact.'

LOL

[I Feel Fine]

Robinson did hurt Maxim once with a left hook. But, no, he showed he couldn't KO Maxim. Then again, neither could Charles, Moore, Walcott or Patterson...

Maxim hurt Robinson in the 2nd to last round? I guess thats because Ray was too busy getting a heat stroke.

Robinson lost, but some try a little too hard to try to validate or justify Maxim's win with arguments that simply aren't there. He won because he lasted through the heat. He lasted through the heat because he didn't have to use movement, and because Robinson shut him down for more than ten rounds and so he wasn't expending much energy. That's it. Discussion over.

Trying hard to validate Maxim's win??? It doesn't need to be validated, he won the fight!!!

Yes, which I said. "Ray lost" were my words. But some, like yourself apparently, try a little too hard to try to preserve the sanctity of Maxim's win with needless apologetics. No one has said that he didn't win, all that has been said is he won because of odd circumstances that likely wouldn't have been repeatable on most nights.

The notion that a former Welterweight champion who is known for movement isn't going to use movement in a fight with a Light Heavyweight champion is basically non-thinking. Of course Robinson was going to move, that's what most would do in his position. That fact, that there was so much heat, was obviously going to hurt Ray, then, and not Maxim. Maxim was getting out boxed, and so he wasn't expending as much energy, and so he lasted it out. It wasn't something that he planned, per se, he just couldn't do much with Ray, and so Ray was the one doing most of the fighting. Which, as I said, is fine, Maxim won the fight because of it. But the notion that Robinson "couldn't have beat him" or that Maxim was the "better fighter", which has been implied, is utter nonsense. I never claimed that he doesn't deserve credit for the win, there's no rule that says the fight has to take place at a certain temperature, but its not unthinkable or immoral to speculate that Robinson wins that title if they fight on a more typical night. Ray would not have been worn out so easily on a different night; he was a fifteen round fighter.

Maxim's win is legitimate-and no one has suggested otherwise- but no amount of casuistry is going to change the fact that Maxim won because of circumstances, not because of skill or ingenius planning.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Interesting point raised by DempseyFire --- if Robinson were fighting a Welter or a Middleweight, would the heat have taken him out? Makes you think.

[I Feel Fine]

I doubt Robinson ever needed six months to recover from the heat in a fight. It was apparently one of the hottest nights in NY history. At most, if Robinson had been fighting a Welterweight or a Middleweight, he might have KO'd them before the heat got to him. But the notion that Maxim's weight advantage was an equal factor in tiring Robinson out is not really supportable. Was it a factor? Sure. Would it have given Maxim the win on a cooler night? No.

[Goodnight, Irene]

New York, as I understand it, is a wintery city, though, where it actually snows.

Anyone know the temperature of that night, how hot it actually was? Of course, I will have to convert from fahrenheit to the Australian celsius, but still, it'd be interesting to know. Same with Manila & a host of other fights, actually...

[raylawpc]

Maxim won the fight. . . .

The question, however, is whether you think he could have done it had the temperature outside been 75 or 80 degrees that night?

Robinson wasn't interested in finding out.

He never went near another lightheavyweight.

And that is a 'fact.'

LOL

Or maybe he was too busy winning the world middleweight title three more times with the very lucerative paydays that accompanied those efforts.

"LOL"

[kikibalt]

Maxim won the fight. . . .

The question, however, is whether you think he could have done it had the temperature outside been 75 or 80 degrees that night?

Robinson wasn't interested in finding out.

He never went near another lightheavyweight.

And that is a 'fact.'

LOL

Or maybe he was too busy winning the world middleweight title three more times with very lucerative paydays that accompanied those efforts.

LOL

[bjermaine]

Now slow-witted bjermaine, completely unaware of Robinson's disaster against lightheavyweight Maxim, offers this ALL TIME winner--a disgusting example of total cluelessness when it comes to the subject.

It's still nowhere near as good as your half-witted claim that a southpaw throwing a left hook would punch himself in the face.

That is up there with some of the things your boy Elma has written. You and Elma both exhibit the same traits of arrogance and ignorance combined. Jimbo must be training you both.

And you expect us to believe your claim that pro boxers were interested in your tips on boxing technicalities?

Hilarious!

LOL
.

that is one of the funniest things i have ever read.

[HomicideHenry]

I like how Carmen Basilio put it once, about the Maxim-Robinson fight, when he was asked whether or not Robinson lost due to the heat as many point out as the best likely excuse for Robinson not becoming the 175 pound champ as well: "Maxim was fighting in the same heat as Robinson."

In short and to the point, if Robinson couldn't beat Maxim that night, he probably couldn't have in any other as well.

The quote reminds me of another as well, when Jack Johnson claimed after losing to Willard that he took a dive in the ring, Jess Willard stated the obvious: "If he took a dive, why didn't he do it sooner? It was hotter than hell down there!", being that the fight went 26 rounds under 115 degrees under the Cuban sun.

[Robinson]

I have not seen all of the Maxim fight, just isolated clips. Now I know that Robinson was obviously affected by Maxim's weight, style and the heat...how was he doing up until the TKO...?

[raylawpc]

I have not seen all of the Maxim fight, just isolated clips. Now I know that Robinson was obviously affected by Maxim's weight, style and the heat...how was he doing up until the TKO...?

The scorecards were 10-3, 9-3-1, and 7-3-3 for Robinson after thirteen.

[Robinson]

Thanks for that.

[raylawpc]

Regarding the temperatures for Robinson-Maxim: The INS reported the temperature at 104 degrees ringside and the AP reported 103 degrees ringside.

The AP story had an interesting quote from Maxim who commented that, had it been cooler, "I would have been stronger and might have got him quicker. It was tough stalking him around in that heat, believe me!" Maxim claimed it was his body shots in the middle rounds that beat Robinson.

The AP and INS reports both had Robinson ahead after 13.

The AP report also quoted a veteran sportwriter who said it was the first time a fighter ever got beat by a thermometer.

[raylawpc]

I like how Carmen Basilio put it once, about the Maxim-Robinson fight, when he was asked whether or not Robinson lost due to the heat as many point out as the best likely excuse for Robinson not becoming the 175 pound champ as well: "Maxim was fighting in the same heat as Robinson."

In short and to the point, if Robinson couldn't beat Maxim that night, he probably couldn't have in any other as well.

The quote reminds me of another as well, when Jack Johnson claimed after losing to Willard that he took a dive in the ring, Jess Willard stated the obvious: "If he took a dive, why didn't he do it sooner? It was hotter than hell down there!", being that the fight went 26 rounds under 115 degrees under the Cuban sun.

Had the temperature been 80 degrees instead of 103 degrees, how do you think Maxim would have accomplished it?

[I Feel Fine]

Carmen Basilio? That's quite a funny person to cite. Carmen only hated Robinson more than maybe any fighter has ever hated another fighter, maybe more than Frazier hated Ali.

When Robinson wasn't being effected by the heat, Maxim wasn't in Robinson's league. And the heat did not effect Maxim as it did Robinson because Robinson's fight plan required more movement and more punches thrown, as is normally the case when small man fights big man, while Maxim didn't do much of anything because he couldn't keep up with Robinson. It wasn't the first time Robinson faced a big weight advantage, and when he had in the past he would be back in the ring that very month for his next fight, he never needed six months to recover from it. Maxim's size is, basically, a red herring.

There's really not much else to say. No amount of rationalizing, moralizing, or condesnsing is going to change that Robinson probably wouldn't have lost if it weren't for the heat. No one has said that Maxim doesn't deserve the win, all that was said was that Robinson's collapse-which was the only thing that won the fight for Maxim- would not have occured in more ordinary circumstances.

[Brute]

New York, as I understand it, is a wintery city, though, where it actually snows.

Anyone know the temperature of that night, how hot it actually was? Of course, I will have to convert from fahrenheit to the Australian celsius, but still, it'd be interesting to know. Same with Manila & a host of other fights, actually...

New York is reputed as having freezing cold winters and blazing hot summers. Makes you wonder why you would want to live there.

[pete]

Don't forget,the referee only made it to the 10th round before he was overcome by the heat,and he wasn't hitting or getting hit.To say that the heat didn't beat Robinson is to say you've never seen the fight.Even when Robinson could barely stand in the last few rounds Maxim couldn't do anything to him.
And why didn't Robinson try 175 again if the heat beat him?Well,Archie Moore was champ then.Robinson was great,he wasn't stupid.

[granberry]

.Even when Robinson could barely stand in the last few rounds Maxim couldn't do anything to him.

LOL

What fight did you see?

Maxim knocked him from one end of the ring to the other.

[raylawpc]

Here is the AP report of the Maxim-Robinson fight:

[raylawpc]

Here are Bob Corum's comments on the fight:

[ben geoghegan]

Robinson outpoints Rock easily then gets robbed on the cards.

You can't beat what you can't catch