Pre World War I Heavyweights

[Ambling Alp]

There have been a lot of heavyweights before world War I that don't get the attention that they probably deserve. I thought that I would put them in groups of how good I think they were.

Level 1
Jack Johnson
James J Jeffries
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey

Level 2
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J Corbett
John L Sullivan
Peter Jackson

Level 3
Tommy Burns
Marvin Hart
Tom Sharkey
Joe Choynski
Kid McCoy
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

Level 4
Joe Goddard
Gus Ruhlin
Peter Maher
Jake Kilrain
Frank Slavin
Fireman Jim Flynn

Level 5
Denver Ed Martin
Frank Childs
Bob Armstrong
Luther McCarty
George Godfrey

I'm sure this someone deserving that I missed. Wanted to get some feedback on that as well as who is overrated and who is underrated. A few guys I thought were borderline and may not have then in the best group.

[dempseyfire]

There have been a lot of heavyweights before world War I that don't get the attention that they probably deserve. I thought that I would put them in groups of how good I think they were.

Level 1
Jack Johnson
James J Jeffries
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey

Level 2
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J Corbett
John L Sullivan
Peter Jackson

Level 3
Tommy Burns
Marvin Hart
Tom Sharkey
Joe Choynski
Kid McCoy
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

Level 4
Joe Goddard
Gus Ruhlin
Peter Maher
Jake Kilrain
Frank Slavin
Fireman Jim Flynn

Level 5
Denver Ed Martin
Frank Childs
Bob Armstrong
Luther McCarty
George Godfrey

I'm sure this someone deserving that I missed. Wanted to get some feedback on that as well as who is overrated and who is underrated. A few guys I thought were borderline and may not have then in the best group.

I think all of the fighters you put in Level 2 should be included in Level 1.

Level 2 should have your fighters in Level 3 minus Marvin Hart.

I think you might under-rating all of the guys in your Level 5, especially Godfrey and Martin.

Flynn should be in the last Level.

All my opinion of course.

[raylawpc]

What's the measuring rod? Head-to-head match-ups? Win-Loss record? Quality of opponents?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

There have been a lot of heavyweights before world War I that don't get the attention that they probably deserve. I thought that I would put them in groups of how good I think they were.

Level 1
Jack Johnson
James J Jeffries
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey

Level 2
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J Corbett
John L Sullivan
Peter Jackson

Level 3
Tommy Burns
Marvin Hart
Tom Sharkey
Joe Choynski
Kid McCoy
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

Level 4
Joe Goddard
Gus Ruhlin
Peter Maher
Jake Kilrain
Frank Slavin
Fireman Jim Flynn

Level 5
Denver Ed Martin
Frank Childs
Bob Armstrong
Luther McCarty
George Godfrey

I'm sure this someone deserving that I missed. Wanted to get some feedback on that as well as who is overrated and who is underrated. A few guys I thought were borderline and may not have then in the best group.

I think George Godfrey should be on level 1, I rate him in my top 30 heavyweights of all time. he is a hall of famer, and one of the best superheavyweights of all time .

Denver Ed Martin should be level 2, no way those level 3 and 4 midget white guys are able to cope with 6'6 denver ed martin.


Frank Childs and Bob Armstrong should be level 3. Those puny midget white guys ducked these men.

[harrygreb]

he has a point (though i think it could be less crudely put) tommy burns should be in the higher group. o'brien perhaps lower.

good lists though, excellent reading.

[dempseyfire]

There have been a lot of heavyweights before world War I that don't get the attention that they probably deserve. I thought that I would put them in groups of how good I think they were.

Level 1
Jack Johnson
James J Jeffries
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey

Level 2
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J Corbett
John L Sullivan
Peter Jackson

Level 3
Tommy Burns
Marvin Hart
Tom Sharkey
Joe Choynski
Kid McCoy
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

Level 4
Joe Goddard
Gus Ruhlin
Peter Maher
Jake Kilrain
Frank Slavin
Fireman Jim Flynn

Level 5
Denver Ed Martin
Frank Childs
Bob Armstrong
Luther McCarty
George Godfrey

I'm sure this someone deserving that I missed. Wanted to get some feedback on that as well as who is overrated and who is underrated. A few guys I thought were borderline and may not have then in the best group.

I think George Godfrey should be on level 1, I rate him in my top 30 heavyweights of all time. he is a hall of famer, and one of the best superheavyweights of all time .

Denver Ed Martin should be level 2, no way those level 3 and 4 midget white guys are able to cope with 6'6 denver ed martin.


Frank Childs and Bob Armstrong should be level 3. Those puny midget white guys ducked these men.

BB, he's referring to the Pre-WW I George Godfrey, 5'10 'Old Chocolate'. His incomplete record doesn't look like much but those in that era regarded Godfrey extremely highly.

[donnellon]

The level 2 guys are all level 1 IMO. Goddard (v Jackson, Choynski) and Maher(V's Sharkey, Choynski) proved in head to head peak battles that they should be in a higher group-indeed all except Flynn(the worst of the lot) from that group should be in a higher group.
Ed Martin should also be in a higher group and I personally would include Jack Root, Hank Griffin, maybe Denver Ed Smith, Joe McAuliffe or George Gardner. And Gunboat Smith I would include for sure and at least in the second tier. Dispite all these revisions I think these are excellent ratings and Oh yes Jeff Clarke should be there also.

[donnellon]

BTW 6-3 1/2 is a more realistic height for Martin.

[harrygreb]

gunboat is a cert for a mention

[HomicideHenry]

Level 5
Denver Ed Martin
Frank Childs
Bob Armstrong
Luther McCarty
George Godfrey

LUTHER MCCARTY IN LEVEL FIVE????? GODFREY???? MARTIN??? THATS BULLSHIT!

[Ambling Alp]

Thanks for the eloquent reply.
I'm guessing that like brocktonblockbuster, you are probably mistaking Godfrey with the George Godfrey who fought after WW I.

The "original" George Godfrey fought in the 1800's and was good, but not great. Level 5 seemed about right for him.

I suppose you could argue that Denver Ed Martin and Luther McCarty could be Level 4, but that would be about it. Their overall careers weren't any better than that.

[dempseyfire]

Thanks for the eloquent reply.
I'm guessing that like brocktonblockbuster, you are probably mistaking Godfrey with the George Godfrey who fought after WW I.

The "original" George Godfrey fought in the 1800's and was good, but not great. Level 5 seemed about right for him.

I suppose you could argue that Denver Ed Martin and Luther McCarty could be Level 4, but that would be about it. Their overall careers weren't any better than that.

McCarty, with the scalps of Morris, Kaufman, Flyyn, and Moran, should certainly be higher than Flynn (who you also put in 4) and Choynski and McCoy (who relatively did little at HW and should be ranked as Light HWs). I'd also put him higher than Hart who really only won the title vs a middleweight after Jefferies vacated and got a gift vs Johnson.

Ditto with Martin (who I'd rank slightly over McCarty) with wins over McVea, Armstrong, Childs, Haines, and Griffin.

[dr_devious]

Charlie Mitchell should get a mention on the list, he was the number 2 HW of the 1880s, fought John L twice, drew one and scored a knockdown in the other. He was badly faded when Corbett knocked him out

[dempseyfire]

Charlie Mitchell should get a mention on the list, he was the number 2 HW of the 1880s, fought John L twice, drew one and scored a knockdown in the other. He was badly faded when Corbett knocked him out

I'm not sure if we were considering the bare-knuckle era or not.

If this is a ranking of only post Marquis de Queensbury, both Sullivan and Jackson should go down several notches (although Jackson did have the famous draw with Corbett gloved up)

[pundit]

Merge level 1 and level 2, these are all heavyweight history roalty. I see no good reason why Peter Jackon, for example, should be ranked below Sam McVea.

On level 3-5 I have no strong opinion, Denver Ed Martin though is surely too low.

[pundit]

I think George Godfrey should be on level 1, I rate him in my top 30 heavyweights of all time. he is a hall of famer, and one of the best superheavyweights of all time .

I guess he means Goerge "old chocolate" Godfrey.

[donnellon]

Hart defeated Ruhlin, O'Brien, Gardner, Ferguson as well as Root and his good showing versus Johnson. He was a good, solid Hw IMO.

[dempseyfire]

Hart defeated Ruhlin, O'Brien, Gardner, Ferguson as well as Root and his good showing versus Johnson. He was a good, solid Hw IMO.

Ruhlin was washed up by the time he fought Hart.

Gardner and O'Brian were super middles/light HWs.

I've read several accounts of Johnson-Hart and if scored fairly he would've lost by at least 13-7.

Hart wasn't a bad fighter by any means but he was not an upper tier HW in my opinion. He won the title with a combination of sheer luck and good timing.

[HomicideHenry]

Thanks for the eloquent reply.
I'm guessing that like brocktonblockbuster, you are probably mistaking Godfrey with the George Godfrey who fought after WW I.

The "original" George Godfrey fought in the 1800's and was good, but not great. Level 5 seemed about right for him.

I suppose you could argue that Denver Ed Martin and Luther McCarty could be Level 4, but that would be about it. Their overall careers weren't any better than that.

I knew which Godfrey you meant. I reckon level 5 or 4 be where he would be overall, but the way I see it, he was one of the black contenders that Sullivan never fought (though in fact Godfrey almost got the shot at the title, but the fight never materialized). So in a sense I'd put him up there with Peter Jackson, only because he never got the shot, not because he was anywhere near Jackson's abilities.

As far as McCarty is concerned, I disagree. He should be either a lower level three or higher level four fighter. He was the best of the 'white hopes', and bested alot of the premiere contenders of the time and he didn't shy too much away from black men either, as he did fight a black contender early on in his career. It's a shame, that had he not did his rodeo horse riding stunts (it is believed he cracked the vertebrae in his back and neck while doing one of his cowboy shows, which would have resulted in his fatal hemmorage during the Pelkey fight), he may have been able to have defeated Pelkey and went on to face Johnson in Havannah, Cuba and not Jess Willard getting the job, and I don't believe it would have been too far out of the relm of possibility that McCarty would have beaten Johnson, and probably would have fought Dempsey and who knows, McCarty was tough and he was pretty good for a big man and was quick from what I have read on him, he might have been able to have given the Manassa Mauler a good fight.

[STP]

Hopkins will take Calzaghe with a left hook.

Known it for quite a few weeks.

[donnellon]

Dempseyfires opinion;
"Ruhlin was washed up by the time he fought Hart.

Gardner and O'Brian were super middles/light HWs.

I've read several accounts of Johnson-Hart and if scored fairly he would've lost by at least 13-7.

Hart wasn't a bad fighter by any means but he was not an upper tier HW in my opinion. He won the title with a combination of sheer luck and good timing."
Good Timing is important in boxing(grin) but seriously why do you think Ruhlin was washed up when he fought Hart, because Jeff beat him?
Of course Gardner and O'Brien were L/h but they were also in the top5-10 Hw ot there when Hart beat them. What was Hart to do, not fight the top men until thay were big eneough?
The Johnson argument is unproveable, I too have read a host of reports on the fight, you are down to the credability of the reporter, that is why i didn't claim a win for Hart but loads of reports dont have him losing 13-7. BTW in those times fights were NOT scored like to-day on a round -by round basis.

[Ambling Alp]

It doesn't seem that there was a lot of proof that Ruhlin was washed up by the time he fought Hart. He was 32, no spring chicken but certainly not ancient either. He hadn't a lot of fights so he shouldn't have been a lot of wear and tear.
The first fight was a 6 round newspaper win for Hart, which really isn't that convincing. The rematch was a draw over 12 rounds.

As for Hart's fight with Johnson, lets say that Hart only won 7 out of 20 rounds. That still pretty good considering it was against Jack Johnson. Very few fighters would have done better than that.

It's certainly arguable, but I think Hart deserves to be in Level 3.

[Ambling Alp]

Just wanted to respond to some of the opinions:

I probably had Choynski too high at level 3. He should be dropped to Level 4.

I had Flynn too high at Level 4. He should be Level 5.

Denver Ed Martin should Level 4 instead 4 of Level 5
Luther McCarty should also be Level 4 instead of Level 5.
Both had brief careers featuring a few nice wins. I don't see how they deserve to be any higher than Level 4 though.

Gunboat Smith should also be included. Level 4 seems about right.
Jeff Clark should also be added. Probably Level 5.

Not sure about guys like Hank Griffin. I don't think he did quite enough to belong.

I guess you could call O'Brien and McCoy lightheavyweights. However, I thought both did enough against heavyweights to be considered here.

Of course there are close calls for some guys whether or not they should be at one level or another.
It's fun to talk about these guys. Most don't get a lot of attention.

[elmersalsa]

I think Peter Jackson should be in the level 1 bracket. He, to me, was better than James J Jeffries.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

denver ed martin would beat all the white midgets you have on level 3, so i suggest moving denver ed to level 3.