If there was NO Muhammad Ali

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 16 Apr 2008, 17:41

Dave is right. Somebody needs to tell the powers-that-be here at boxrec.com that the AP listed the weights for Frazier and Mathis as 204 1/2 and 243 1/2 respectively.

For my earlier posting, I got the weights from boxrec's record for Smokin' Joe.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 16 Apr 2008, 18:19

Being 'out of condition' is not neccesarily relevant to weight. Generally yes. BUT...

Also I disagree that a fighter who is out of shape is not neccesarily mentally prepared.

Foreman blew Frazier away and quickly. As shocking as that seems it does happen.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 16 Apr 2008, 18:52

Yes, when I said "Dave is right," I was referring to his statement about the weights for Mathis-Frazier being wrong.

Certainly, weight can indicate that a fighter is out of shape, or didn't train as hard as he normally did. But its not conclusive.

Even with well conditioned athletes, as we age, we put on weight easier and the weight becomes harder and harder to get off. That why it is extremely rare for a fighter to move down in a weight class. Most fighters with longer careers end up in a higher weight class when they retire.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:51

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:32

So you honestly feel that Frazier in 1973 was as over the hill as say Louis v marciano or Ali vs Holmes?

Cool then I think in 1974 Foreman was past his best. The conditions in ZAire were un-favourable and Foreman was not mentally prepared.

Though atleast Foreman granted the way past his best Frazier a re-match.

Kym

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Apr 2008, 23:17

DaveV17 wrote:Alp posted,"What happened, happened. Foreman beat Frazier. Frazier beat Ellis. No excuses. That's what happened. End of story."

Okay, if that is how you see it, you get no argument here. That makes things simple. Holmes beat Ali, Marciano beat Louis, Tunney beat Dempsey, etc. Carry that out and whoever is the lineal champion at the time is also the greatest ever because he beat the man who beat the man.

Are you really that dense?
Well first of all, I will start with the obvious it isn't that simple because Tunney, Marciano and Lewis retired with the title so the current champion isn't the best. So no, you don't "carry that out".

I wasn't saying that there is never a legitimate reason that justifys a loss. If one fighter is over the hill, too inexperienced, gets a bad decision etc. that is one thing.

However, it isn't valid to offer lame excuses like guessing a guy was past his best when he shouldn't have been.

Frazier had only just turned 29 when he fought Foreman. That isn't old at all for a heavyweight. (Your favorite fighter was undefeated at that age as well.) Frazier only had 29 fights, and hadn't been in that many "wars" uptothat point. He hadn't had much wear and tear. There is no reason for him to be over the hill all of the sudden.

It's pretty hard to swallow that anyone would be overconfident against a prime George Foreman. That's just ridiculaus. Frazier was well aware that Foreman had some ability.

I also find it a bit ironic that you are making such a big deal about Frazier weighing a few more pounds than some of his previous fights (though less than the last two.) You are the one with the theory that the obese old George Foreman was in better shape than the muscular young George Foreman.
You have in the past gone on at nausem about the importance of size and strength yet somehow it has no bearing on the Foreman-Frazier fight.

Foreman was always going to be a very difficult opponent for Frazier. A pressure fighter who comes right at his opponent is tailor made for Foreman. Add in that Frazier was usually a slow starter and Foreman was a fast starter (and a great finisher) and it's not that surprising that Foreman won.

Sometimes there are legitimate reasons for a loss. Most of the time there isn't. In this case there isn't.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Apr 2008, 23:31

Comparing Frazier-Foreman to Marciano-Louis and Holmes-Ali?

Funny, though, isn't it? If Liston comes in five pounds overweight, or Frazier comes in eight pounds overweight, people will mention it as if it means something. Yet if you mention that Ali was 13 pounds above a decent weight, its considered a lame excuse. Interesting.

As for George... he wouldn't have beaten Ali if the fight had been in Houston.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 17 Apr 2008, 00:03

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 Apr 2008, 12:57

By "your favorite fighter" I was being sarcastic. I am refering to the fighter that you rip constantly. The fighter that most of your posts mention in a nagative way. You know who I mean.

You didn't take my "no excuses" comment to it's logical conclusion. I explained why you didn't in my last post.
You are twisting around what I said about "no excuses". I was saying that Frazier had no excuse for losing to Foreman and I have said why. Frazier wasn't a washed up fighter and no reasonable excuse which explains why he lost. I wasn't saying that there are never extenuating circumstances regarding a fight. There just isn't in this case. I explained this in my last post as well.

Foreman didn't beat a washed up fighter like the examples that you gave of Marciano and Holmes. Had the fighters that they beat been in similar circumstances as Frazier than I would say that they would have no excuses either. However they clearly were nowhere near there prime when Marciano and Holmes beat them.

I have learned from you how biased a person you are. You don't use the same criteria on every fighter. When you want to make a point but discard it when the same criteria is used against an different arguement that you make.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 17 Apr 2008, 13:16

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 18 Apr 2008, 10:28

Marciano did fight boxers in their prime... Charles, Walcott and Moore were all in their prime, and of mint conidtioning.

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 21 Apr 2008, 14:23

Liston until Frazier. Frazier until foreman. Foreman until young. Young until Shavers. Shavers until Holmes.
It Sounds a bit like the old testement, but that's what I think would happen.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 21 Apr 2008, 23:04

Sayeth Revpol before the Israelites

zslayton · Post by **zslayton** » 02 May 2008, 14:20

Crease wrote:Alright guys, upon reading aninterewsting thread, I started asking myself the quesiton: WHAT IF NO-ONE STOLE A YOUNG CASSIUS CALY'S BIKE AND HE NEVER TOOK UP BOXING... WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED?

Okay, Liston continues destorying thrugh the Heavyweights until.... Joe Frazier comes along.

Frazier defeats Liston by a destrutive KO.

Foreman arises and destorys Frazier.

Foreman continues and has a close match against Larry Holmes.

Mike Tyson arrives and destroys a 9very old) Foreman.

What do you guys think>? Do ya think the bxoing lineage is accurate?

I think to a point it could be, but with boxing you just never know. You can hypothetical yourself to death and it won't get you anywhere.

I think Liston probably would have destroyed nearly all heavy's until Frazier, and Foreman would have destroyed Frazier before Larry Holmes picked him apart (however in their 40's George would have KTFOed Larry) and Larry would have done what Larry did unitl Spinks beat him...Then there was Tyson. You just never know. The 70s had so many solid heavy's that any of them could have stepped up and been the man had Ali not been there.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 07 May 2008, 12:47

No Ali?

Liston loses a decision to George Chuvalo. Chuvalo loses to Joe Frazier. Frazier loses to Earnie Shavers. Shavers loses to Jimmy Young who loses to Ken Norton who loses to Gerry Cooney who loses to Michael Spinks who loses to Razor Ruddock who loses to Lennox Lewis who retires undefeated and hands the belt to Wladimir Klitschko.

Cap

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 07 May 2008, 15:38

Cap wrote:No Ali?

Liston loses a decision to George Chuvalo. Chuvalo loses to Joe Frazier. Frazier loses to Earnie Shavers. Shavers loses to Jimmy Young who loses to Ken Norton who loses to Gerry Cooney who loses to Michael Spinks who loses to Razor Ruddock who loses to Lennox Lewis who retires undefeated and hands the belt to Wladimir Klitschko.

Cap

HOLY CRAP...are you suggesting a world without Larry Holmes? What happens to him in this scenario? Car Wreck? Leaves boxing for the ministry? Leaves boxing to begin the MMA?

Can't see him missing from the picture this way.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 07 May 2008, 16:36

No Ali means a lot less to talk about now.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 07 May 2008, 17:38

BoxBuzz wrote:
Cap wrote:No Ali?

Liston loses a decision to George Chuvalo. Chuvalo loses to Joe Frazier. Frazier loses to Earnie Shavers. Shavers loses to Jimmy Young who loses to Ken Norton who loses to Gerry Cooney who loses to Michael Spinks who loses to Razor Ruddock who loses to Lennox Lewis who retires undefeated and hands the belt to Wladimir Klitschko.

Cap
HOLY CRAP...are you suggesting a world without Larry Holmes? What happens to him in this scenario? Car Wreck? Leaves boxing for the ministry? Leaves boxing to begin the MMA?

Can't see him missing from the picture this way.

Larry Holmes? Oh. He loses to Ken Norton in a close one for Norton's title. During a none-too-exciting career he also loses to Tim Witherspoon, Renaldo Snipes, Carl Williams, Bonecrusher Smith, Gerrie Coetzee and Trevor Berbick.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 08 May 2008, 05:32

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 08 May 2008, 06:40

if ali wasnt around foreman wouldnt of been destroyed mentally by the ali loss and i believe he could of beaten many heavyweights i give larry holmes the best chance ofbeating him but

TheOneIsHere2008 · Post by **TheOneIsHere2008** » 03 Aug 2008, 16:18

granberry wrote:If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Thomas Hauser would be working in a library filing books.

No...He would still be a successful lawyer and you would be the man in the lobby of the courthouse who shines his shoes...

Thomas Hauser- "Make it a spit shine, granberry."

Granberry - "Yes sir."

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 03 Aug 2008, 20:42

If there was no Ali
TOIH2008
would be sad.

TheOneIsHere2008 · Post by **TheOneIsHere2008** » 03 Aug 2008, 20:45

Robinson wrote:If there was no Ali
TOIH2008
would be sad.

I would still have Willie Mays, Shaquille O'Neal, and Jim Brown...

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 03 Aug 2008, 20:56

: - )

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 03 Aug 2008, 21:46

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:
Robinson wrote:If there was no Ali
TOIH2008
would be sad.
I would still have Willie Mays, Shaquille O'Neal, and Jim Brown...

I work in Private Security and deal with many pro athletes.
Shaq is a real good guy. Hes big into martial arts too. A big mma fan.
Last time I talked to him we talked about Gonzaga knocking out Crocop.
We were both surprised.
I like Shaq. Hes good people.

If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Re: If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Re:

Re: If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Re: If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Re: If there was NO Muhammad Ali

Re: If there was NO Muhammad Ali